View Full Version : LMA on Ancestry
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 20:50
Like a whole lot of you, I have been glued to this new feature, and found a whole stack of Baptism/ Marriages etc. I am now still stuck on my Pudney lot (Rachel Willis who proported to have married William Pudney) etc. Merry! Will you please come out from under that table:d
Seriously though, I am in a right pickle. I cannot for the life of me find anything like the marriage of William Pudney to Rachel Willis, which has bugged me for about 5 years now. OK, maybe they didn't get married after all. They did have at least 7 kids, which I have four of the certs which are correct. However, the other three are a complete mystery as to their births, although I have just found their Baptisms on LMA/Ancestry. Perhaps the parents didn't register these births, thinking it would be OK just to have them baptised?
Here is a real conundrum - On the London Births and Baptisms there is one of William and Rachel's offspring which puzzled me. He is Charles Pudney, baptised on 5 Sept. 1852 to James William Pudney and Rachel Pudney at Holy Trinity, Tottenham. If you look at the original image on page 55 is states James William and Rachel and under the surname box is says 'Pudney alias Nightingale'. What is going on, I wonder?
Sorry this is rather long and convoluted, but has anyone got any ideas please?
Chris
lol!:
Marriages Dec 1850
Chapman William Shoreditch 2 461
Cruft John Shoreditch 2 461
Honychurch Amelia Shoreditch 2 461
May Mary Charlotte Shoreditch 2 461
Moore Sophia Shoreditch 2 461
Newberry Samson Shoreditch 2 461
Newberry Samuel Shoreditch 2 461
Nightingale James William Shoreditch 2 461 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Randall Joseph Shoreditch 2 461
Willis Rachel Shoreditch 2 461 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Most likely is that his mum changed her name after he was born, so one name is his birth surname and the other is either his step-father or his real dad if that was who she married.
Altenatively ........well, there are a few alternatives!
Do you have a baptism for James William at all?
The marriage cert is on Ancestry! Says his father is James Nightingale, labourer.
Maybe the children who apparently were not registered are under Nightingale?
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 21:19
Merry - I thought that was a possibility as well. I have the marriage cert of James William Nightingale and Rachel Willis in 1850, which states that Rachel father was a farrier. Having been given her Parish birth details many moons ago, it stated that she was born in 1819 in Henley, Oxon, and her father was a James Willis, blacksmith. Just a coincidence perhaps? I then sent off for the death cert for a 6 month old son of James Nightingale and Rachel, which says that Rachel was present at the death, and gives the address as West Green. William Pudney and wife (?) Rachel were living at West Green all the way along when all these kiddliwinks of theirs were born. What on earth do you make of it, eh?
I have searched through every which way to try and match a marriage between William Pudney and Rachel Willis, not to mention these three kids - Charles (1852), John (1859) and Sarah Louise (1856). Both John and Charles were supposed to have been born in Tottenham, and Sarah Louise was born in Camberwell.
Ye Gods and little fishes................!
Chris
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 21:22
Most likely is that his mum changed her name after he was born, so one name is his birth surname and the other is either his step-father or his real dad if that was who she married.
Altenatively ........well, there are a few alternatives!
Do you have a baptism for James William at all?
Do you mean baby James William Nightingale?
Well, either James William Nightingale or James William Pudney, depending on which name he had at that time!
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 21:27
Maybe the children who apparently were not registered are under Nightingale?
I have got the three elusive kiddliwinks baptisms today from Ancestry - i.e. Charles, Sarah Louise and John, and they are all down as kids of William Pudney and Rachel Pudney. I'm beginning to think our Rachel was a bit of a naughty gal, apart from anything else! She appeared to change and add names to her kids at will, which has proved to be a nightmare!
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 21:33
Well, either James William Nightingale or James William Pudney, depending on which name he had at that time!
I think I shall have a nose around to try and find a baptism for this James William Nightingale.
Very odd, as I have the birth cert for the other 4 kids - Harry (1854), William (1858) James (1861 & my Great-grandfather) and Edward (1863)., but no sign of any baptisms for that lot.
Chris
Another possibility is that it was the father, James Nightingale, who used two names.
In 1841 is that William (Pudney) aged 15 on the opposite page from James Pudney 50 and Sarah Pudney 40, with some more children in Little Baddow, Essex??
Joan of Archives
18-09-09, 21:34
Chris as the children were born before 1875 I don't think it was law to have to register their births before that date, but most people tended to have their children baptised.
:)
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 22:04
Chris as the children were born before 1875 I don't think it was law to have to register their births before that date, but most people tended to have their children baptised.
:)
Hi Joan, I thought you might also have been under the table with Merry when the name Rachel Willis popped up........:d
I think you could well be right, Joan. It would seem that Rachel and William either had their kids baptised or registered. Another mystery that will linger for years to come, no doubt...........
Chris
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 22:04
Another possibility is that it was the father, James Nightingale, who used two names.
In 1841 is that William (Pudney) aged 15 on the opposite page from James Pudney 50 and Sarah Pudney 40, with some more children in Little Baddow, Essex??
The very same, Merry!
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 22:07
Merry - in fact, the folk on the other page to William Pudney i.e. James and Sarah Pudney, are his parents.
So, he was the first-born? Maybe Sarah Pudney was nee Nightingale and her first-born came along before the wedding? Then James/William thought he should marry under his birth name, but when they asked him the name of his father, he said 'James' so they wrote down James Nightingale!!!
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 22:24
Sorry, I've been a bit haphazard here! Charles Pudney, (the first born) who follows through all the censuses etc., was born in 1852. I have got his marriage cert etc, so he did exist. The 2nd child was Harry Pudney (b. 1854 in Camberwell) and have got his birth cert/marr. etc. The 3rd was Sarah Louisa who was also born in Camberwell in 1857 - found her baptism today, but no sign of her birth cert. 4th child was John Pudney - again can't find his birth, but was born in Tottenham 1859/60 (according to censuses) and have his marriage cert. 5th child was William Pudney, born 1858 in Tottenham, and have his birth cert. 5th child was James Benjamin, born 1861 in West Green, Tottenham (my Great-grandfather), and lastly Edward Pudney, born 1863 in West Green.
Chris
chrissiebee
18-09-09, 22:33
I do believe that this Baby Nightingale - James William Charles, is Rachel's child, fathered by James William Nightingale, as the birth cert does state that the baby's mother's maiden name is Willis. This baby died at 6 months of age in 1851. So if Rachel DID marry William Pudney, it would be a simple thing to find the marriage between the years of 1850 to 1854 at most, I would have thought! No such luck.........
I am now off bye-byes, and will endeavour to try and crack this tomorrow. Many thanks to both of you - Joan and Merry, for all your input.
Chris
I feel very confused now.
When I've been talking about James William Pudney/Nightingale, I was refering to the man who married Rachel, not a child of hers (I can't see that you mentioned a child called Nightingale until your last post!). So when I said 'he was the first born', I meant the first born of Sarah X and James Pudney who are on the opposite page on the 1841 census when William was aged 15.
I thought we had come to the conclusion that the only marriage for Rachel was the one to Nightingale and this man she married was also called Pudney (because of the alias comment on Charles' baptism in 1852), not that there were two men involved. I find it hard to believe Rachel married two men both with the same forname combination within a couple of years. Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?????
*confused of Christchurch*
Do you mean baby James William Nightingale?
When you said this, I didn't know what you meant, calling him a baby, but now I realise you were talking about Rachel's child, but my reply was refering to Rachel's husband!!! So my response should have said 'No, his father'!
Joan of Archives
19-09-09, 08:32
*Goes for more coffee* :d
Coffee isn't good for you, Joanie! (but probably necessary in this case!)
*pours large brandy*
Joan of Archives
19-09-09, 08:44
Oh no that's true! Lol!
*sips brandy* Much better thanks!! ;)
chrissiebee
19-09-09, 09:04
Oi, girls! Where's mine, eh? I'll settle for a strong coffee with a slug of brandy in it........!
Chris
Joan of Archives
19-09-09, 09:16
Oi, girls! Where's mine, eh? I'll settle for a strong coffee with a slug of brandy in it........!
Chris
It's all your fault we need one in the first place Chris lol!! :d
chrissiebee
19-09-09, 09:19
Sorry for the confusion, Merry. It was late last night, and I wasn't expression the facts clearly.
Now, I know for a fact that William Pudney was born on 1 June 1823 in Little Baddow, Essex, and from the 1861 onwards is down as the spouse of Rachel (born 1819 in Henley, Oxon). When I got four of the kid's birth certs, it confirmed the parentage, and also that their mother's name was Rachel (formerly Willis). I thought the rest would be plain sailing, until I saw a marriage of a Rachel Willis to a James William Nightingale in 1850. Got the marriage cert, and to be absolutely sure I got the birth cert for Baby James William Charles - all ties in nicely. I then assumed that the Dad of Baby JWC died, and that Rachel subsequently remarried, this time to William Pudney. Searched high and low, to no avail, and then when I saw the baptism of Charles Pudney in 1852 with the father's name of James William Pudney and Rachel Pudney (alias Nightingale), I nearly fell off my chair! What is all this 'alias' melarkey, I wonder? Summat not right, that's for sure.......
Chris
chrissiebee
19-09-09, 09:22
It's all your fault we need one in the first place Chris lol!! :d
I know, I know, Joanie. 'Tis all my fault, but you know when something really bugs you and I am renown for dotting the i's and crossing the t's and a bit like a terrier with a bone until the conundrum is solved!
Chris
Now, I know for a fact that William Pudney was born on 1 June 1823 in Little Baddow, Essex
Is that from a baptism? If it was, do you know that his parents were already married? Was he called William James/James William or just plain William?
Have you found a bap for James Pudney b abt 1792 in Copford Essex?
Copford baps are on the IGI, but I can't see any for Pudney or for Nightingale.
Do you have the marriage between this James Pudney and his wife Sarah? I wondered if it was him who began life with two surnames, rather than his son b 1823?
chrissiebee
19-09-09, 12:30
Sorry I've been so long in getting back on this site - stomach called!
As far as confirmation of James Pudney and wife Sarah in Little Baddow, I can only say that I have the birth cert of one of their kids, back to the earliest I could get to, which was Susannah Pudney, who was born in 1838 in Danbury and states that her father was just James Pudney and mother was Sarah (formerly Felton). I also have the death cert of James Pudney in 1860 (73 years old) in Little Baddow, and then his wife's death cert which says that Sarah died in 1881 in Little Baddow at 80 years of age. It was a long time ago that a kind soul looked at the old Parish Records, and said that their son - William was born on 1st June 1823 in Little Baddow, Essex. No other middle names were mentioned, either then or on any of the later censuses. I am convinced that this is the right guy, but where does Rachel fit in with this clandestine Nightingale name I wonder?
Chris
Well, it's the space for the family surname where it says Pudney alias Nightingale, so I would say it's the male line which may somehow carry both names.
Apart from people changing their surname because of marriages taking place after births etc the only other time I've seen names change completely is to do with copyhold tenancy of land, where the tenancy of the land is passed to a female descendant and she (or her husband) assumes the surname of the copyhold document, presumably just to keep things simpler and to ensure they continue to hold the tenancy.
chrissiebee
19-09-09, 13:01
Well, I never knew that! I can't think that this would be case with this 'orrible lot, as both James William Nightingale was a labourer, and William Pudney aspired to be a groom/gardener.
Not exactly in the Ponsonby/Ffitzherbert/Fauntleroy league methinks!:d
chrissiebee
19-09-09, 13:08
It's obvious that somebody was telling porkies somewhere down the line, but whom is anybody's guess. I do seem to remember seeing a death of James William Nightingale, sometime around the early 1850's, but I don't suppose that would solve a mystery anyway.
William Pudney died in 1870, from smallpox, with son Harry present at the death, both still living in West Green.
Dear Rachel died in 1908 in Edmonton Union Workhouse, at 90 years of age, stating that she was the widow of William Pudney. Informant was her daughter.
Sad innit?
This child called James William Charles Nightingale - I can see his birth reg, but when did he die? You said 1851 - what date was it? (sorry, can't see the reg). Do you also have his exact birth date?
chrissiebee
19-09-09, 21:11
This child called James William Charles Nightingale - I can see his birth reg, but when did he die? You said 1851 - what date was it? (sorry, can't see the reg). Do you also have his exact birth date?
Yes, Merry, I do have all the details as I sent off for his death cert last year with the hope that it would yield more info. On the death cert it just gives his first Christian name of James Nightingale, who died on 24 June 1851 at 6 months of age. The poor little mite died of cystitis, and states that his father was James Nightingale, and the informant was Rachel Nightingale, who was present at death which occurred at West Green, Tottenham.
Chris
So, on the 1851 census James Nightingale (husband of Rachel) was the same age as William Pudney (compared with later censues) and said he was born in Danbury (the birthplace of Sarah Felton , I seem to remember?) which is less them two miles from the place of baptism for Wm Pudney, Little Baddow. Rachel Nightingale is from Henley-on-Thames, not surprisingly!
So, I still think James Wm N and Wm P are the same person!
chrissiebee
20-09-09, 21:26
So, on the 1851 census James Nightingale (husband of Rachel) was the same age as William Pudney (compared with later censues) and said he was born in Danbury (the birthplace of Sarah Felton , I seem to remember?) which is less them two miles from the place of baptism for Wm Pudney, Little Baddow. Rachel Nightingale is from Henley-on-Thames, not surprisingly!
So, I still think James Wm N and Wm P are the same person!
Oh-er! I think you could possibly be right, Merry. I shall have a little dig around on previous censuses to see if the James William Nightingale pops up! Bit of a coincidence that James William Nightingale states that his father was also 'James' on his marriage cert to Rachel Willis. Why on earth would they want to disguise William Pudney as J.W. Nightingale, I wonder? Looking at this marriage cert, there is nothing else that would throw up any light - even the witnesses - Walter Goodchild and Sarah Pall/Tall mean nowt to me.
If that is the case, why on earth can I not find a birth certs for either Charles, John or Sarah Louisa, but have their baptism's as clear as day. As I said before, perhaps the parents didn't think it necessary to baptised and register the kids - seems one or the other to me. What a mystery, eh?
chrissiebee
20-09-09, 22:00
Just taken a little gander on the 1851, and I can find no sign of either James William Nightingale, or so-called missus Rachel. I stuck in the bare minimum, apart from names James and Rachel (in Middlesex) and nothing at all looks likely - even badly mistranscribed ones. Problem is, as far as this marriage cert goes, is that it states they are both bachelor and spinster, and 'full age'. Well, I do know that Rachel was born in 1819, but Gawd only knows the rest.....:confused:
I'm off to bye-byes, but will try and buckle down to solve a bit of this mystery tomorrow. If only it was as simple as sending off for a cert, eh?
Chris
Sorry, I forgot to put the 1851 ref :o
HO107; Piece: 1702; Folio: 486; Page: 16;
chrissiebee
21-09-09, 15:34
Many thanks, Merry - I have tracked 'em down through the various censuses, and you will see that 'hubby's' name changes by 1861 to William Pudney, born 1824 in Little Baddow (which is a stones' throw from Danbury, I believe).
On the 1861 it also threw me for a bit, as there is a kiddie called 'George', and again I couldn't find anything to fit (this was a few years ago), but sent off for a James Pudney's birth cert for that year. Sure enough, it was correct as far as parentage goes, so obviously the parents decided soon after the census to change the child's name to James. The complicate matters, this James then became James Benjamin from thereon in........ On the same census there is a child called Louisa (b. 1857 Camberwell), but when I took a chance and sent off for the birth cert, it turned out that this daughter was actually called Sarah Louise. Another son, Henry, was actually registered as 'Harry'.
You can perhaps understand why this family have given me so many headaches........:mad:
I am going to try and delve to find out why there are these descrepancies with our chappie James William Nightingale/William Pudney - was he perhaps a naughty boy, and spent his life looking over his shoulder?
Chris
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