Ancestry LMA records help please!

[kiterunner]

Again... I've just found a baptism entry on FamilySearch Record Search's pilot site which looks as if it might just tie my whole Brown - Stearns - Carpenter - Cator thing together (on an old thread) and I would love to look at the original image to see what it says, but wouldn't you know it, I can't find it on ancestry! It doesn't help that I'm getting a bit overexcited about this, lol. It's St Leonard Shoreditch, but the only year shown for it in Browse for Borough = City of London is 1665-1666. Can anyone find 1751, pleeease?



The entry is Martha Cater born 27 Aug 1729, parents Jonah and Martha, christened 8 Nov 1751 St Leonard Shoreditch.

I'm thinking she must be the Martha Cator who married William Carpenter 19 Jul 1752 at St George Mayfair, Westminster (a "Fleet" marriage). I was hoping her parents would be Jonah and Martha, after I realised she couldn't be Jonah's wife Martha.

So, can anyone find the image, please?

(This is the old thread if you want to look at it, but the whole thing is a bit complicated! )
http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=3233&highlight=Cator

[Jackie H]

Here's the image (it comes under Hackney)

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=1624&path=Hackney.St+Leonard+Shoreditch.1745-1754.104&sid=&gskw=&cr=1

[maggie_4_7]

This link is the 1750 onwards

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/View.aspx?dbid=1624&path=Hackney.St+Leonard+Shoreditch.1745-1754.80

Haven't got time to check where 1751 starts but obviously a few pages on.

Oops snap.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, thanks very much, both of you. I have a lot to add to my tree now!

[kiterunner]

Hmm, I think Martha may have knocked a year or two off her age, since FamilySearch Record Search says her sister Sarah was born 1 Dec 1729!

[maggie_4_7]

On that baptism it says Martha was born 27 August 1729!

[kiterunner]

Exactly, Maggie.

[maggie_4_7]

Ooooops I just realised she was an adult when baptised :) so gave her own birth date.

Is there nothing for her around the time she was born?

Of course you'd have to know when she born of course :D it's alright I've had a hard day today!

[kiterunner]

Her family were Quakers and she got married in 1752 in a C of E church, so I suppose she converted from being a Quaker and that's why she got baptised as an adult. I'd already found Quaker records for the births of her brothers and sisters but not hers, so I had nothing to prove that she belonged to the same family as them till now, so I'm very chuffed!

[Merry]

Somewhere in the Quaker records (her local Monthly Meeting minutes?) there should be the details of her disownment from the Society. Some of these make interesting reading.

[kiterunner]

Her family had moved from Herefordshire to London at some point, so I'm not sure which would be her local meeting.

[maggie_4_7]

Whereabiuts in Hertfirdshire? Hertford was a big Quaker town the Quaker Hall still stands and there's a statue there I think it maybe a famous Quaker.

[kiterunner]

No, it was Herefordshire. They were from Ross on Wye.

[rachelagourakis]

I'm sure I read somewhere recently that non conformists could not marry in their own churches, so had to marry in C of E churches prior to 1837 - is that correct?

Births would be recorded on the non conformist records, but not marriages - this is certainly true of my Wade line...

Rachel

[Merry]

Quakers and Jews were allowed to conduct their own marriages, but no other non-cons until 1837.

One of the 1001 reasons for Quakers being disowned from the Soc of Friends was ENTERING a C of E church (until about 1850) never mind marrying in one! lol

[rachelagourakis]

Lol

[maggie_4_7]

No, it was Herefordshire. They were from Ross on Wye.

Sorry I was reading your post on my iPhone yesterday and misread it! :)

[kiterunner]

Now this is very weird. I found Joseph Cator's apprenticeship record on British Origins - Joseph Cator, son of Jonas Cator of Haverfordwest Pembrokeshire Wales, glover, deceased, apprenticed to John Robins, Feltmaker's Company, 6 Sep 1756. My Joseph was a hatter later in life and it seems from looking at my Bolton line that feltmakers made hats, and Joseph was born in 1742 so would be exactly the right age to be an apprentice, and he did move to London, so that all fits. That's not what's weird... there is a marriage for him on FamilySearch Record Search in the Non-Conformist bit, 31 Jul 1765 Middlesex / Surrey but it doesn't say who he married (although it gives his parents' names, so I know it's him), but while I'm getting round to paying up to see the image, I've found a baptism 15 May 1765 at St Saviour Southwark, Joseph Cator an adult aged twenty five years and upwards. I have worked out that he married a Maria because I've found some children.

But Joseph was still a Quaker when he died! Whaaat? Surely that baptism must be him?

[tenterfieldjulie]

In some churchs you had to be baptised before you could be married, if he married in his wife's church maybe that why he was baptised?

[Merry]

The marriage record shows as an RG6 record which means it was a Quaker marriage. Joseph and Maria would have both had to be members of the SoFs in order to marry, so the CoE baptism is extremely curious, unless Joseph had a doppelganger!

[Merry]

Looks like he married Maria Bowry, dau of Thomas and Lidia (sic)

[Merry]

Maybe the Bowrys were from Herts or thereabouts?

Two siblings for Maria?

Name: Thomas Bowry
Event Type: Birth
Birth Date: 06 Jun 0000
Birthplace: Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire
Christening Date:
Christening Place:
Marriage Date:
Marriage Place:
Death Date:
Death Place:
Burial Date:
Burial Place:
Father's Name: Thomas Burwell Bowry
Mother's Name: Lidia Bowry
Record Set: RG6_0919
Collection: England and Wales, Non-Conformist Record Indexes (RG4-8)



Groom's Name: William Bowry Or Bowery
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Mary Wingfield
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 05 Feb 1750
Marriage Place: St. Albans, Hertford, England
Groom's Father's Name: Thos Bowry
Groom's Mother's Name: Lydia
Bride's Father's Name: Thomas Wingfield
Bride's Mother's Name: Hannah
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I01773-6
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 828174
Reference Number: v 16 p 63
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

[Merry]

So, was Thomas the one who converted to Quakerism?

Name: Thomas Burwell Bowry
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date:
Baptism/Christening Place:
Birth Date: 15 Aug 1696
Birthplace: Buckingham, England
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Thomas Bowry
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Hester
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I01058-2
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 814826
Reference Number: p20
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

[Merry]

Groom's Name: Thomas Bowry
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Hester Burwell
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 15 May 1690
Marriage Place: Richmansworth, Herford, England
Groom's Father's Name: Thomas Bowry
Groom's Mother's Name: Ann Bowry
Bride's Father's Name: Benjamin Burwell
Bride's Mother's Name: Mary Burwell
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M01239-4
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 583993
Reference Number: v 168 p 128
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973


I'll have you know this is earlier than anything I have in my tree!! lol And look, blinky parents names and everything - jammy!

[Merry]

Having just re-read this post:

http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=58783&postcount=30

I have no idea if you would be interested in those Bowrys! lol

[kiterunner]

That's very interesting indeed, thanks for finding that out, Merry. Last night after I'd shut the computer down I started wondering whether Naomi could be a niece of Joseph's wife, but I wouldn't have thought of her husband being Joseph's wife's nephew! I did wonder why Joseph also left stuff to the children of Thomas's first wife, but that made me think maybe she was also related to Joseph rather than realise it was Thomas who was the relative. Just because Naomi got so much mention in Joseph's and Ruth's wills - it seems weird that Ruth would leave her stuff if the relationship was so tenuous. Maybe it will turn out they were all related on both sides though, lol.

Poor Joseph, he and Maria had 3 children and they all died young, then Maria died in her 50's.

I also have to chase up the Haverfordwest bit at some point - I thought the Cators came from Ross on Wye, but maybe Haverfordwest was where Jonah / Jonas went when he left his family.
Edit - ah, I'd forgotten that FamilySearch Record Search shows Joseph and Ruth being born in South Wales; I guess the family moved to Haverfordwest and then Jonah left them and they sent word back to Ross about it.
Another edit - d'oh, nearly all the births on the page with Joseph's and Ruth's say Haverfordwest but I never read those other entries when I downloaded the image!

[Merry]

*unsuccessfully tries to remove glazed look*