Trying to decipher this from marriage certificate

[bobb1960]

Trying to track down my grandfathers WWI service records - I note the following information from his marriage certificate (from 1915):

Under section 5 - Profession:

Driver
115th Co. [Company ?]
11th Division Train [Train seems to make no sense?]
A S.C
(farm labourer) [I guess this his previous occupation, pre conscription]

Can anyone shine any light on this information, what it means and where I should go to discover more detail?

Thanks in advance, Bob B

[kiterunner]

Not all WWI service records have survived; in fact a lot of them have not.

ASC = Army Service Corps.

If you can post up his name we could search for any records that are available.

Wikipedia has a page about the 11th (Northern) Division - see link below. It includes mention of Divisional Transport: 11th Divisional Train, Army Service Corps (ASC) – remained in England when division went to Gallipoli; later joined 26th Division in Salonika - 112th, 113th, 114th 115th Companies, ASC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_(Northern)_Division

[bobb1960]

Thank you for the immediate and detailed response - this is much appreciated.
His name was George Bowden, from Exeter, Devon.
Born 1890 (I'm awaiting his birth certificate for full details). Died 12/7/1956.

[kiterunner]

Ancestry has an entry for a George Bowden of 4 Gilpin Place, Fore St, Exeter, service number T2/13654 in the RASC (i.e. Royal Army Service Corps - the Royal bit was added in 1918), in the UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards database, but there is only a small image on Ancestry itself and the proper images are on their separate military site Fold3 (or Forces War Records):

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/157167331:61588?tid=&pid=&queryId=f63ea20b-61d0-4c47-a2b8-5e03c912ff23&_phsrc=UMN122520&_phstart=successSource

On the corresponding medal index card, it says he was a Driver and he qualified for the Victory medal and the British War medal:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000181-02430?treeid=&personid=&rc=&queryId=f6ca1ae0-d6c3-4eb1-8fa6-cbba5450d0be&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UMN122523&_phstart=successSource&pId=1678708

If you can't view this on Ancestry, it is free to download from the National Archives website if you make an account and log in (it says £3.50 but when you log in it will be free):
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1418330

The service papers are available on Ancestry (they will also be on Findmypast) and give his age as 25 when he joined up in 1914, and his birthplace as Chagford, Devon. But his occupation is baker, so I'm not sure whether he is the right person! This is the link to the first page on Ancestry, then you can go through the other pages from there:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/253440:1219?tid=&pid=&queryId=f6ca1ae0-d6c3-4eb1-8fa6-cbba5450d0be&_phsrc=UMN122523&_phstart=successSource

It says he married Amy Dyer 16 Jun 1915 so I guess you will know from that whether it's the right record.

[Katarzyna]

From The Great War (1914-1918) Forum.

A Divisional Train was a key link in the resupply chain. Pack trains (rail) originated at the Channel ports and went forward to the railhead. From there, the Divisional Supply Column (mechanical) carried the stores forward to the Replenishment Point where they were handed over to the Divisional Train (horse) that carried them forward to where they were turned over to the units at the Delivery Point (DP). In practice, the process was modified based on local circumstances.
Railhead
the point at which material and personnel are transferred from rail to another conveyance.

Edit:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/definitions-of-units/what-was-a-divisional-train/

[Merry]

I'm a bit concerned that the George who died in Q3 1956 was aged 69.

[Merry]

It says he married Amy Dyer 16 Jun 1915 so I guess you will know from that whether it's the right record.

I think that must be him as there's only the one George Bowden marrying in 1915.

In 1921 George (with wife Amy and daughter Mary E, 6y 3m (born before the marriage) and George H, 1y 8m) is b Chagford and aged 33y 2m which suggests a birth before 1890.

Chagford was in Okehampton district when George was born, but I don't see a birth reg there. There is this baptism though:

Name George Bowden
Baptism Date 3 Jul 1887
Baptism Place Chagford, Devon, England
Religion Anglican
Father Henry Bowden
Mother Emma Bowden

What father's details are on the 1915 marriage cert?

You say you are waiting for his birth cert. Did you know you can download birth records from the GRO (up to 1923) for £2.50 and you don't have to wait for them!

[kiterunner]

What father's details are on the 1915 marriage cert?



While we wait for the answer to that, I just thought I should point out that on the service papers for the George who married Amy Dyer, his next of kin is given as father Harry Bowden of Thorne, Chagford, Devon, which is then crossed out and replaced with Mrs A Bowden, presumably Amy. The marriage was at the register office so no use us trying to find the record online!

[kiterunner]

And further through the service papers, it does say Company 115. Also "born in the year 1887".

[Merry]

(farm labourer) [I guess this his previous occupation, pre conscription]

Just for info, he would have been a volunteer rather than conscripted, as that didn't start until March 1916.

[Merry]

I'm pretty sure this is the reg for the son of Henry and Emma. On the 1891 census their older children are recorded as born in Chagford, but George in Moreton. Moretonhampstead is in Newton Abbot district. I've checked the whole family have mother's maiden name Stoneman.

BOWDEN, GEORGE mmn STONEMAN
GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in NEWTON ABBOT Volume 05B Page 125

EDIT I have now seen an image for the baptism details in post #7 and, whist the bap took place in Chagford, the abode for the family says Moretonhampstead. Father's occ labourer.

Whilst Chagford and Moretonhampstead are in different reg districts, they are only about three miles apart.

Of course if I'm mistaken and Amy Dyer isn't your relative, then you can ignore all my posts!!

[bobb1960]

Thank you! This information and guidance is most useful - especially as I'm new to this site and genealogy.

Yes - he did marry Amy Dyer 16 Jun 1915, so we have the correct person/records.

[bobb1960]

Thank you Katarzyna! This is most useful, and I thank you for taking the time to post this for me.

[bobb1960]

Hello Merry.
I have his death certificate - died 12 July 1956. Death by misadventure.
Aged 69. Still to confirm precise date of birth to verify this.

[bobb1960]

Thanks Merry. I appreciate you researching and posting these extra details.

I'm especially appreciative that you've found out his mothers name (Emma Bowden) - that is new to me. I guess I'll see that once I have his birth certificate.

I'm further convinced that we have the right person as his oldest daughter was called Mary Elizabeth (daughter Mary E, 6y 3m, as you note) and a son called George was the next born (George H, 1y 8m, as you note). Again, these are all VERY helpful bits of information.

You ask "What father's details are on the 1915 marriage cert?".
All there is his his name 'Henry Bowden' and Profession 'General Labourer'.

George and Amy's residence is noted as 'Scotts Hill Farm, Dunsford'

"Did you know you can download birth records from the GRO (up to 1923) for £2.50 and you don't have to wait for them!"

No... I didn't appreciate this! Thank you for the tip.

[bobb1960]

All I have is:

His name 'Henry Bowden' and Profession 'General Labourer'.

George and Amy's residence is noted as 'Scotts Hill Farm, Dunsford'

From this forum/thread, I now also know George Bowden's mother's name to be Emma Bowden.

This is a great place - so thank you everyone who's helped.

[bobb1960]

Thank you Merry. This is very interesting and illuminating information. I didn't know that.

It's of particular interest to my family as my eldest son is now a Major in the Army - so learning of his great grandfathers past and service is of particular interest to him.

[Merry]

If I'm looking at the correct George Bowden on the 1939 Register (widower, living at 18 Looe Rd, Exeter) then he gives his dob as 20th May 1887.

[bobb1960]

Again, thank you Merry!
Your time and attention to detail on this is much appreciated.
I'm 100% sure we're talking about my relatives here.
George Bowden (my grandfather) - who I didn't know as I was born in 1960 (after his death).
Amy Bowden, nee Dyer (my grandmother) b. 24 May 1897, d. 27 May 1939.

Now I know my paternal great grandparents are Henry Bowden and Emma Bowden nee Stoneman. The information about Emma Bowden has all come from this forum/thread - so I have new information to work with and I'm very pleased!
Thank you.

[Merry]

If you want to use downloadable versions of birth or death certs (marriages not available) then this is the site you need to register with:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

Births up to 1923 and death up to 1957 are £2.50 for the (uncertified) downloadable option.

[bobb1960]

Yes, this is him. Correct address.
Now I know his dob - Thank you!
Bob

[bobb1960]

This is super helpful - especially to a newbie like me.
Thank you.

[Merry]

Hopefully it will match with the birth cert. Beware that is was quite common for people not to know their date of birth, and to have the wrong year was particularly common. All you can say is, that date is what is recorded in 1939 and it may well be correct!!

[bobb1960]

????
Thanks Merry!