View Full Version : An elusive birth
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 16:01
A few months ago I had a DNA match who contacted me for access to my tree. I don't give access that easily so I had a look at the tree linked to that person, there was only a few names on it and none stood out. So I messaged back to ask for some names, one surname was very familiar although not on the DNA matches tree. They only gave me a surname so I asked for a full name that was end Feb no full name forthcoming.
I decided a few days ago to take a look myself and built a quick tree from the names on the DNA match tree.
I have a brick wall with a person called Hannah Wiles on the tree she gives her birthday as 3 Sep 1910 on the 1939 register, she had a son born 1936 registered in her name Wiles who was illegitimate it seems. The man John Wiles on the 1939 register could be her father but I have no idea, he could be her grandfather and she could be illegitimate too. His parents are John Wiles and Annie Rattray. This John Wiles married an Emma Jonas in 1884 and they had children up until 1905 from census and the GRO although some I can't find on GRO.
I cannot find Hannah Wiles birth reg or any baptism, it could be her name is Ann, Annie or something else later on she marries in 1941 and gives a middle initial of M.
1939 register
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/7157300:61596?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472280550
Electoral Roll, with someone called Annie who could be John Wiles oldest sister Mary Annie who used the name Annie or could be John's second wife and Hannah's mother!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/149050506:1795?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472280550
1941 marriage
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8753&h=46527451&ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472280550&usePUB=true
John's marriage
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/6683938:1623?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472316156
Edit: Oldest sister not daughter
Your 1939 link doesn't work for me:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61596/images/tna_r39_0251_0251d_014?backlabel=ReturnSearchResul ts&queryId=6d1efe2438eeb1298ea4e30accd35714&pId=7157300
She isn't springing out on the 1921 census, but I'm supposed to be doing something else at the moment......! back later....
1921 - No John Wiles cabinet maker either......
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 16:29
Your 1939 link doesn't work for me:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61596/images/tna_r39_0251_0251d_014?backlabel=ReturnSearchResul ts&queryId=6d1efe2438eeb1298ea4e30accd35714&pId=7157300
She isn't springing out on the 1921 census, but I'm supposed to be doing something else at the moment......! back later....
1921 - No John Wiles cabinet maker either......
Sorry yes edited now I copied my tree link.
I can't find her on 1911 or 1921 but the 1921 I have to pay for but to be fair couldn't find her anyway.
The Hannah on the electoral roll must be a different Hannah as in 1930 she would have been too young to vote.
The Wiles family is quite large. Of those 17 children born live, have you found all 11 still alive in 1911? Could Hannah's mother have died in childbirth?
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 17:18
The Wiles family is quite large. Of those 17 children born live, have you found all 11 still alive in 1911? Could Hannah's mother have died in childbirth?
No, have marriages for some but I didn't go down that rabbit hole there's too many but found the supposed mother John's wife Emma nee Jonas on 1939 saying she is a widow.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/39291886:61596?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472316156
1911 census
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/235759:2352?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472316156
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 17:33
Death entry
Hannah Magdalen McGilloway, I assume I is a mistranscription. Magadalen?
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7579&h=12072831&ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472280550&usePUB=true
Ok, 1921, I think this is the same people (the first two places of birth make n sense!)
73, Wilmer Gardens, Shoreditch, London & Middlesex
John Wiles head 54 married b Huntingdon St, Kingsland Rd, cabinet maker
Annie Wiles dau 28y 4m single b Walton Place, Kingsland Rd, packer boot trade
Hannah Wiles dau 14y 3m both alive, b Wilmer Gardens, Shoreditch, school whole time
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 18:00
The Hannah on the electoral roll must be a different Hannah as in 1930 she would have been too young to vote.
Maybe she wasn't born in 1910, I think it is her, no other Hannahs found other than John's mother on census using Annie, Anna, Hannah and she was born 1836ish.
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 18:02
Ok, 1921, I think this is the same people (the first two places of birth make n sense!)
73, Wilmer Gardens, Shoreditch, London & Middlesex
John Wiles head 54 married b Huntingdon St, Kingsland Rd, cabinet maker
Annie Wiles dau 28y 4m single b Walton Place, Kingsland Rd, packer boot trade
Hannah Wiles dau 14y 3m both alive, b Wilmer Gardens, Shoreditch, school whole time
Yes thats them, how did you find them?
Ah Annie daughter born 1899 must be on the electoral register 1930.
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 18:11
Okay so 1907 not 1910 and we find an Alice who is not on 1911 census!
WILES, ALICE JONAS
GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 44
kiterunner
18-04-23, 18:12
If she is 14 years 3 months old on the 1921 census and her date of birth is 3 Sep 1910 on the 1939 Register, she / her family had no clue about her birth month as well as her birth year.
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 18:18
If she is 14 years 3 months old on the 1921 census and her date of birth is 3 Sep 1910 on the 1939 Register, she / her family had no clue about her birth month as well as her birth year.
This family is appalling with info supplied to be fair, there's two children on different census Nancy 1886 and Charles 1901 who aren't on the GRO but they also have a Jane b 1886!
The middle name Magadalen is certainly made up later in life!
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 19:27
Okay so 1907 not 1910 and we find an Alice who is not on 1911 census!
WILES, ALICE JONAS
GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 44
Alice died
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8914&h=36715158&tid=&pid=&queryId=4eabb5a2845dc39f2a2a1cdefa71bfa8&usePUB=true&_phsrc=TFv1285&_phstart=successSource
Yes thats them, how did you find them?
By ignoring John's dob from the 1939 Register (1860) and searching for a cabinet maker instead!
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 20:17
By ignoring John's dob from the 1939 Register (1860) and searching for a cabinet maker instead!
Ah okay thanks. God knows what Hannah's real name is and when she was born or even if Emma and John were her real parents ;(
WILES, FLORENCE HANNAH -
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 60
1911
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F01359%2F0957&parentid=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F01359%2F0957%2F5
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/8536692:1938?tid=&pid=&queryId=2b6f58f1c325f87dc1558b064042ec74&_phsrc=nUX4627&_phstart=successSource
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/4587043:1623?tid=&pid=&queryId=85b4b422e4ac44957dfd88b56a478e2b&_phsrc=nUX4629&_phstart=successSource
Florence Hannah Wiles, illegitimate b 1905
Florence Hannah Wiles, d/o John Wiles, starts school in 1910
Annie Wiles d/o JAMES Wiles cabinet maker marries Henry Wilmott in 1906
Florence is under the same roof as Henry and Annie in 1911
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 21:27
WILES, FLORENCE HANNAH -
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 60
1911
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F01359%2F0957&parentid=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F01359%2F0957%2F5
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/8536692:1938?tid=&pid=&queryId=2b6f58f1c325f87dc1558b064042ec74&_phsrc=nUX4627&_phstart=successSource
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/4587043:1623?tid=&pid=&queryId=85b4b422e4ac44957dfd88b56a478e2b&_phsrc=nUX4629&_phstart=successSource
Florence Hannah Wiles, illegitimate b 1905
Florence Hannah Wiles, d/o John Wiles, starts school in 1910
Annie Wiles d/o JAMES Wiles cabinet maker marries Henry Wilmott in 1906
Florence is under the same roof as Henry and Annie in 1911
Thank you. But which Annie Wiles?
A very good question!
I suspect Annie is the daughter of John, born in the 1890s. She marries Henry Wilmott, but then goes back to Dad, reverting to her maiden name. She then marries John Floume, who is much younger than she is, b c 1900, so lies about her age and then is stuck with the details from the 1939 register.
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 21:41
John"s brother James married Hannah Holt 1883
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/3795161:1623?tid=190530293&pid=152472295208&queryId=ce9c77585709e49b86559819a120bc99&_phsrc=fMG269&_phstart=successSource
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 21:45
A very good question!
I suspect Annie is the daughter of John, born in the 1890s. She marries Henry Wilmott, but then goes back to Dad, reverting to her maiden name. She then marries John Floume, who is much younger than she is, b c 1900, so lies about her age and then is stuck with the details from the 1939 register.
The daughter Annie was born in 1899.
maggie_4_7
18-04-23, 21:58
I now have a Hannah Wiles b 1882 popping up on 1901 census with James and his wife Hannah Holt but not on the 1891! There is a Nancy b 1883 on 1891 so I think they are using Nancy for Hannah!!
I give up for tonight.
My head hurts!
If Florence Hannah is the same person as Hannah Magdalen - a stretch, but the girl in 1921 is the right sort of age - then she would be John Wiles's great neice. So why would he be put down as her guardian in 1910?
I now have a Hannah Wiles b 1882 popping up on 1901 census with James and his wife Hannah Holt but not on the 1891! There is a Nancy b 1883 on 1891 so I think they are using Nancy for Hannah!!
I give up for tonight.
Snap and ditto
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 06:49
I am confused I must say, it doesn't happen often I can usually work my way out if it but this family is a nightmare. I will pick this up again later today when I have time but just for now so that everyone else is as confused as me :D
John's brother James (just thinking about Annie who married Henry Wilmot putting James as her father) married Hannah Holt in 1883 and this is the marriage and 1891 and 1901census:-
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/6684942:1623?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472778676
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/11064081:6598?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472778676
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/15951399:7814?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472778676
Notice the name Nancy and also the fact that most of the children that were born before 1891 do not appear on the 1891 (maybe that isn't the right census).
A Nancy (not found on GRO) appeared with John Wiles and Emma Jonas in 1901 never to be seen again but is born approx same year as another of their daughters Emma Rebecca (found on GRO) on 1891 census. To confuse matters even more they also had a daughter Susan Rebecca that appears as Rebecca on one census and Susan on others!
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/2702028:7814?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472676506
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/190530293/person/152472316158/facts
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 07:22
Okay I think this woman:-
WILES, HANNAH HOLT
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 108
Is Nancy on the 1891 census with James and Hannah (apparently Nancy is used for Ann, Annie, Hannah in England which is confusing because its Agnes in Scotland). I think she is Florence Hannah Wiles' born 1905 mother that Phoenix found with Annie (Hannah /Nancy senior) and Henry Wilmot 1911.
I am still not convinced she is the Hannah I am looking for her birth date is way out but I suppose she could be.
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 07:26
Lizzie Wiles is a witness on the Annie Wiles and Henry Wilmot marriage, Lizzie is Hannah/Annie/Nancy's sister and daughter of James Wiles and Hannah Holt.
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 07:47
I think this may be Florence Hannah's marriage.
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/918278994:1623?tid=190530293&pid=152472845114&queryId=c73bc499c1a91f8ad9480647caeb19ce&_phsrc=cFy2243&_phstart=successSource
I must say that the writing on the 1921 census is appalling and Hannah's age look like it's been corrected (clutching at straws) it should be 11 it looks like 14!
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 08:00
Florence Hannah is on the 1921 census with Annie Wilmot nee Wiles
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?firstname=florence&firstname_variants=true&lastname=wiles&keywordsplace=london&keywordsplace_proximity=5&datasetname=1921+census+of+england+%26+wales&yearofbirth=1905&yearofbirth_offset=2&sid=998
I must say that the writing on the 1921 census is appalling and Hannah's age look like it's been corrected (clutching at straws) it should be 11 it looks like 14!
Oops! Sorry!!
What do you make of the places of birth on the 1921 census??
Florence Hannah is on the 1921 census with Annie Wilmot nee Wiles
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?firstname=florence&firstname_variants=true&lastname=wiles&keywordsplace=london&keywordsplace_proximity=5&datasetname=1921+census+of+england+%26+wales&yearofbirth=1905&yearofbirth_offset=2&sid=998
That makes much more sense (Henry Wilmott was in hospital somewhere)
And I'm afraid my red herring has muddied the waters, but I wonder if somewhere in Wilmer Gardens one could find Hannah and Annie in 1911?
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 08:35
Oops! Sorry!!
What do you make of the places of birth on the 1921 census??
They are both known addresses/streets, Wilmer Gardens and Watson Place for the Wiles family but interestingly James Wiles John's brother is residing at 6 Watson Place in 1911.
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/237397:2352?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472295208
By the way James is with his daughter Annie Wilmot in 1921 and also his son James Annie's brother. James senior dies 1937.
These places are on the border of Hoxton and Shoreditch very very poor areas then and were fairly poorish working class when I was young, I live in Shoreditch and have done since born. Quite trendy now though, a mix of old time working class and the trendies including actors.
In fact Julie Christie is well known face around the Shoreditch/Bethnal Green area but the her brother who she lived with for many years has lived here for years even when it wasnt trendy.
Oh I didn't mean you got the age wrong it could be 14 but it's very poor writing.
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 08:39
That makes much more sense (Henry Wilmott was in hospital somewhere)
And I'm afraid my red herring has muddied the waters, but I wonder if somewhere in Wilmer Gardens one could find Hannah and Annie in 1911?
No it helped because I was trying to avoid going down the rabbit hole of the Wiles relationships because there is so many of them but I think its inevitable if I am going to get to the bottom of it all.
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 08:44
That makes much more sense (Henry Wilmott was in hospital somewhere)
And I'm afraid my red herring has muddied the waters, but I wonder if somewhere in Wilmer Gardens one could find Hannah and Annie in 1911?
John and Emma are in Wilmer Gardens on 1911 census, John and Emma are never together again on any paperwork so far.
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/235758:2352?ssrc=pt&tid=190530293&pid=152472293450
is this elizabeth wiles who marries george hardy in 1907: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_199234-00314?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=af740da6f62a0713d86ec6087b172d95&pId=6468618
the sames as this elizabeth who marries john nash in 1911: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_197008-00287?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=f1ff515c447176945e46a6b8056cd458&pId=5435108
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 11:36
is this elizabeth wiles who marries george hardy in 1907: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_199234-00314?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=af740da6f62a0713d86ec6087b172d95&pId=6468618
the sames as this elizabeth who marries john nash in 1911: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_197008-00287?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=f1ff515c447176945e46a6b8056cd458&pId=5435108
Yep looks like it she has a sister Martha so the George Hardy one definitely.
In 1911, there is no John Nash aged 24 at Lynedoch Street, but there is a William, aged 20: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC/1911/RG14/01334/0623&parentid=GBC/1911/RG14/01334/0623/7&browse=true
and there is no Elizabeth at no 73 - which is the address of the Wilmotts! So perhaps that Elizabeth is a cousin who couldn't remember her father
's name??
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 18:35
I think the Elizabeth Wiles/George Hardy marriage is John Wiles and Emma Jonas' daughter. The Elizabeth Wiles/John Nash marriage is James Wiles and Hannah Holt's daughter and they have mixed up the fathers names both John but one should be James. I think the groom is John Nash and he is using the parents address, he is in Greenwich on the 1911 census.
John and James also had a sister Elizabeth b 1873 who died in 1894 at 21 Lynedoch Street!
maggie_4_7
19-04-23, 18:45
Here is Elizabeth on 1911 and her occupation is Waste Paper Sorter
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/237399:2352?tid=190530293&pid=152472778679&queryId=d1e6a22e89698795554817b076744d36&_phsrc=TFv1400&_phstart=successSource
Which is her occupation on the marriage certificate.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_197008-00287?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=f1ff515c447176945e46a6b8056cd458&pId=5435108
kiterunner
19-04-23, 19:19
Waste paper sorter on the marriage cert.
I forgot to say, I went all through Wilmer Gardens in 1911, on the lookout for any Annies aged 10 ish and baby Hannahs, but found nothing.
maggie_4_7
20-04-23, 05:39
I forgot to say, I went all through Wilmer Gardens in 1911, on the lookout for any Annies aged 10 ish and baby Hannahs, but found nothing.
I suppose its possible they we just left off the 1911, it's clear that John and Emma weren't particularly diligent with paperwork or very literate.
I've been wrong on so many counts, that I quiver to suggest it, but it seems odd that Emma should leave after so many years of marriage, and I did wonder whether she had discovered something about Hannah's birth that upset her?
maggie_4_7
20-04-23, 18:39
I've been wrong on so many counts, that I quiver to suggest it, but it seems odd that Emma should leave after so many years of marriage, and I did wonder whether she had discovered something about Hannah's birth that upset her?
Sorry I have been out all day, wasn't ignoring.
Well something certainly happened, Emma doesn't seem to be around after 1911, not on 1921 census or the electoral roll and on her own as housekeeper in 1939. Although those are only snapshots of the past and not conclusive of their estrangement it is strange seeing as she left her daughters at home there.
maggie_4_7
21-04-23, 06:07
Can anyone find this entry on the GRO
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=60135191&tid=190530293&pid=152472780486&queryId=21f0513e9ad9865717d78238617c5560&usePUB=true&_phsrc=cFy2501&_phstart=successSource&_gl=1*isu53e*_ga*MjEzMTk3MTYyMC4xNjU5MDgxNDIx*_ga_ 4QT8FMEX30*ZGNhYjc5MGYtYmFiZS00OWRmLThmYTYtZTZkMjU 4ZTQ0M2EwLjE4OS4xLjE2ODIwNTcxOTMuMzQuMC4w
Can you post that as a .co.uk ref, please?
maggie_4_7
21-04-23, 07:06
Can you post that as a .co.uk ref, please?
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=60135191&tid=190530293&pid=152472780486&queryId=faeb4af371de48e173fab4546cc70555&usePUB=true&_phsrc=cFy2526&_phstart=successSource&_gl=1*1qznurk*_ga*MTAwMTU1NzgwOC4xNjQ4ODgzNjU4*_ga _4QT8FMEX30*M2NhZDljMDQtYmM2Zi00YmRkLThlOTUtOGU0Mj dkNDNhZjFiLjk1LjEuMTY4MjA2MDc3MC4zMy4wLjA.
ElizabethHerts
21-04-23, 07:39
I can't find it, even with the volume and page details.
maggie_4_7
21-04-23, 07:57
I can't find it, even with the volume and page details.
No me too. I have only ever had this once before also a Shoreditch birth 1860s.
ElizabethHerts
21-04-23, 08:12
Someone on the Find My Past forum on Facebook is having the same problem for the Newmarket district.
NILES, JAMES HOLT
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 38
maggie_4_7
21-04-23, 08:26
NILES, JAMES HOLT
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 38
Well done, I wish we could use wild cards on the GRO. I still can't select the +/- years.
ElizabethHerts
21-04-23, 08:26
Well done, Phoenix.
kiterunner
21-04-23, 08:41
He is indexed as Niles on the GRO site.
Edit - I see Phoenix got there first!
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