Missing on census 1881 and 1891

[JBee]

I have a Francis Winfil Paton born 1875 in Glasgow on the 1901 census and 1911 census but cannot find him any earlier or his parents.

1901 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/433530:1101?ssrc=pt&tid=170704302&pid=362214674090

Frank Paton 26 Head born Glasgow living in Morroes, Angus
Agnes Paton 29 Wife
and children

1911 he is with his wife Agnes and children in Dundee but gives his age as 39 and was born in Brechin (red herring?).

His Army record on 9th March 1915 gives his age as 39 and 330 days and says born in Glasgow. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/30973_183316-00141?pId=1533743

According to his marriage certificate in 1891 he gives his age as 20 and his father as Alexander Paton, a ploughman (deceased) and his mother Isabella Hampton (deceased).

However according to his death certificate in 1949 his age is given as 76 and his father as Francis Winfil Paton a florist and mother Isabella Hampton.

Now I haven't been able to find a birth for a Francis W Paton but did find a birth for a Francis Winfield born 1 March 1875 in Blackfriars Glasgow parents being Francis Winfield and Isabella Hampton both artificial flower makers and not married.

I did find a death for a Francis Winfied in St Giles, Edinburgh in 1894 who was an artificial flower maker and supposedly married to Ann McGinnes? but no marriage found.

Am I going wrong with this and if not how did he get the name Paton?

I've been trying to find Francis Winfil Paton, Alexander Paton, Francis Winfield or Isabella Hampton on census's but without luck.

Can anyone help please?

[kiterunner]

Could be unrelated, but there is a James Paton death 1878 Perth, age 2, MMN Hampton. Not had any luck with the censuses yet.

[JBee]

Thanks Kite

Yes just looked and the parents are Alexander Paton (labourer) and Isabella Hampton so could well be the parents on the wedding certificate. James is 18 months old ON 31 August 1878.

So if Francis was born April 1875 and James Paton Feb 1877 they could be brothers.

[JBee]

Just found the death of Isabella Hampton aged 41 in Perth 8th April 1893 widow of Alexander Paton labourer -death registered by son Francis Paton of Eastfield, Bridge of Earn.

Unfortunately no parents information.

[kiterunner]

This could be Alexander and Isabella in 1881:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/433842:1119?_phsrc=BPu14835&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=al*x*&gsln=pat%3fn&ml_rpos=3&queryId=f2cde9c4c3a43264aad9775dbbbd4b24
Alexander 27, Isabella 26 and a Margt age 1. No Francis listed though, at least not on Ancestry.

[Phoenix]

1881
Meal Vennel, 16, Middle Church, Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Catherine Simpson Lodger Unmarried Female 31 1850 Factory worker Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Thomas McLeod Lodger Unmarried Male 52 1829 Barber Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Ann Galletly Lodger Unmarried Female 40 1841 Pipe maker Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
John Bartley Lodger Married Male 32 1849 Farm worker Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
Isabella Bartley Lodger Unmarried Female 34 1847 Farm worker Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
Betsy Bartley Lodger Unmarried Female 30 1851 Farm worker Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
Jessie Bartley Lodger Unmarried Female 15 1866 Factory worker Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
William Hargrove Lodger - Male 9 1872 Scholar Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
Mary Hargrove - - Female 5 1876 - Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
John Hargrove - - Male 1 1880 - Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
Alexander Paton Lodger Married Male 27 1854 Labourer Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
Isabella Paton Lodger Married Female 26 1855 - Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
Margaret Paton Lodger - Female 1 1880 - Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
John Coleman Lodger Unmarried Male 32 1849 Labourer Ireland
John Anderson Lodger Unmarried Male 28 1853 Labourer Ireland

[kiterunner]

This could be Margaret in 1891:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1275717:1108?_phsrc=BPu14836&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=marg*&gsln=pat%3fn&ml_rpos=5&queryId=754b78e52410a0e8a6126d6a246084f2

[kiterunner]

Is this Francis (jr) in 1891?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1325352:1108?_phsrc=BPu14837&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=fran*&gsln=win*&ml_rpos=6&queryId=2a408bf98d0d13dc17f8317add832194

Age supposedly given as 20

[JBee]

Thank you so much Kite

Yes I think that could be Margaret and I found her (I think) as a nurse in an asylum in Fife in 1901.

She marries a James Frasier Gardiner in 1904 in Dundee. She gives her father as Alexander Paton a ploughman which matches up with what Francis said on his marriage certificate.

As for Francis - I don't know - it is quite clear on the census as Francis Wingfield aged 20 and born in England. Those around him are 19, 25 etc and the one above him born also in England and the one below him was born in Dundee

his army records in 1916 also said he hadn't served before.

[Phoenix]

And, on one of the records it said he was born in 1870. When he was discharged, he was given as aged 48!! Given a change of surname, the army would be unlikely to be able to tie up a previous record, particularly as there does not appear to be a service record for Francis Wingfield - suggesting that he possibly did not stay very long. He seems to have had a huge variety of homes and occupations - and possibly provided birth places at random.

How old was his reputed father, Francis Winfield when he died? There are no obvious Scottish census records for him.

[kiterunner]

I thought that maybe he said he hadn't served before because he was using a different name, and because if they saw his supposed age on his original records, he would be too old for them to take for WW1.

[JBee]

His father Francis Winfield's death was on 16 January 1894 in St Giles, Edinburgh.

The age given by his wife Ann McGimes? who was present was 43 and his parents were John Winfield (deceased) and Margaret Brumar? also deceased. Sorry don't know how to put a copy of the image up.

Usual address 78 West Port

[JBee]

I find it odd that I cannot find a Francis/Frank born 1875 in the 1881 census either as a Paton or a Winfield.

On Margaret's birth certificate it says that Alexander Paton and Isabella Hampton married on 10th June 1873 in Brechin but I can't find it on scotlandspeople.

[kiterunner]

Maybe it was an "irregular wedding"? Edit - wait, just realised Francis was born after that date, in which case, they probably didn't get married on that date!

[JBee]

These two Francis's are a pain in the neck lol. but its son in laws direct line and my grandchildren have asked for a family tree for school.

[kiterunner]

Have you already looked at this 1881 census entry - possible for Francis sr though not where I expected him to be?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1008640:1119?_phsrc=Ctf25572&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=fran*&ml_rpos=1&queryId=5dc9e38a50502972138b87b586c5fab7

Edit - ancestry's transcription has Frances Winfied, male, 29, lodger at 1 Burn Lane, Inverurie, Aberdeenshire, florist - artificial, born England. Their transcription doesn't give marital status, annoyingly.

[kiterunner]

And this for 1891 - again, you would really need to view the image on SP to check what Ancestry have got right or wrong, but he does have an Ann with him:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2598397:1108?_phsrc=Ctf25573&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=fran*&ml_rpos=9&queryId=d324d6a287d1a4ab00b9c927f37a0624

They have transcribed him as Francis Kinfield, age 41, lodger at 5 Kirkwynd, Maybole, Ayrshire, artificial florist, born Keilmarnock, Ayrshire. Ann also 41 born England.

[JBee]

On the 1881 census Francis is unmarried but born in England

In the 1891 census Francis is said to have been born in Kilmarnock and his wife? Ann born in England - perhaps its the other way around.

As I don't think there's many Francis's that are artificial flower makers I think it must be him.

[Phoenix]

I wonder whether it is possible that Francis senior had TWO sons called Francis? A legitimate son, born Nottingham in 1870 and an illegitimate son b 1875? Artificial flower maker is an odd occupation for a man, and I wonder whether it indicates some accident which rendered other employment impossible?

There is this marriage in Clitheroe, Stafford in 1869 of Francis, labourer, son of John to Sarah Smith: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FSTAFF%2F007566564%2F02391&parentid=GBPRS%2FSTAFF%2FMAR%2F77480%2F1

[JBee]

There's quite a few Francis Winfields or variants born in England but his parents are said to be John Winfield and Margaret Burness? can't read it.

[kiterunner]

There's quite a few Francis Winfields or variants born in England but his parents are said to be John Winfield and Margaret Burness? can't read it.

The MMN is shown as Breman on the death index on Scotland's People.

[JBee]

It could well be I’m useless at reading handwriting