My new Mander family

[Terri]

Did someone mention being bored??

Now we have Great Aunt Maud’s French history, my new-found French cousins are desperate to find out about their grandfather, Mark Mander. Information is sketchy to say the least. The Mander family were English and it is assumed that they married in England. The wife’s name was Adelaide, husband’s name unknown. They had two known sons, Mark and Henry. Mark would have been born about 1900.
Family legend: Adelaide ran away to marry, being pregnant at the age of 16. I couldn’t find any evidence of this.

This is the only family I could find with even a faint (and it is faint!) hope of fitting!

Frederick Harry Mander, born 1874, Newcastle, son of a solicitors clerk
Adelaide Sarah Lamb, born 1866, Leyton, Essex, daughter of a printer

They married 30/12/1896 in Leyton, Essex. Adelaide was 30, not 16!

They had 3 sons:
Lionel Charles Mander born 1898 West Ham
Joseph Philip Mander born 1900 West Ham
Harold Mander born 1901 West Ham

I know, no Mark! I can find no trace of a Mark Mander – anywhere. Harold could easily be Henry, and perhaps, Mark was a nickname of same kind for either of other two boys

Frederick Harry Mander is an imported meats clerk in 1901: RG13; Piece: 3439; Folio: 66; Page: 16.
In the early 1920s, the family own a Charcuterie In Paris. A bit of a jump from an imported meats clerk, but I guess he had contacts???

In 1911 I can’t find the family at all, other than Joseph, who is with his Lamb grandparents.

They were in France during WWI, when they invested in Harry’s Bar in Paris.
Mr Mander was also involved in the Travellers Club in Paris. (Wasn’t that a brothel?)

Frederick H Mander dies in Christchurch, Hants in 1957
Adelaide S Mander dies in Bournemouth in 1950
Lionel C Mander dies in Christchurch, Hants in 1956
Joseph Philip Mander dies in Bournemouth in 1973. Married Gertrude P Harrison in Bournemouth 1925. (Did Joseph remain in England)
Harold Mander (probably) dies in Honiton, Devon in 1970

The Manders lost a lot of money after the first world war, so I guess it isn’t remotely unlikely that they might have returned to England at some point. My great aunt and her daughter found life very tricky during the German occupation in WW2, so it would have been much harder for a "known" family with business connections.

So, either I need to find further proof or discount this family altogether. I did try to fathom out a couple of online French records but gave up - I had no idea what I was looking at!

All ideas greatly appreciated. Thank you

[ElizabethHerts]

Terri, can you clarify what facts you know about Mark Mander.

[Terri]

That he was English, mother was called Adelaide, and he had a brother called Henry. He was born around 1900, a snob, good looking, of wealthy parents and got the 38 year old housemaid pregnant in Paris when he was 20! That is it! Not a lot to go on ...........!

[ElizabethHerts]

Have you seen this probate entry for an Adelaide Mander in 1910:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1904/32858_625988_3323-00061?pid=18819760&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3Dgmj395%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DAdelaide%26gsfn_x% 3D0%26gsln%3DMander%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1885%26 cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26MSAV%3D1%26MSV%3D0%26uidh%3D9 p3%26pcat%3D34%26h%3D18819760%26dbid%3D1904%26indi v%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D5&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gmj395&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

[ElizabethHerts]

The same couple seem to be this one in 1891, with a Derbyshire connection:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=gmj398&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Frederic&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Mander&gsln_x=0&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=1&MSV=0&uidh=9p3&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=12829690&dbid=6598&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2

[Terri]

Yes I did. If it's the ones I'm thinking of, they had a couple of daughters. My Manders had no daughters.

[ElizabethHerts]

Frederic Mander married Adelaide Birch in 1885 in the Nottingham district.

[ElizabethHerts]

Mander births 1900 +/- 2 years for boys:

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
MANDER, AARON WILLIAM GRANT Order
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 555
MANDER, ALBERT STEADMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 245
MANDER, ALBERT EDWARD POPKINS Order
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 491
MANDER, ALBERT EDWARD DYAS Order
GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in ST MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 555
MANDER, ALBERT ERNEST WALTER AYRESS Order
GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in SHIPSTON ON STOUR Volume 06D Page 737
MANDER, ALBERT HENRY HOPKINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in ASHBY-DELA-ZOUCH Volume 07A Page 111
MANDER, ALBERT JOHN MORTON Order
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 553
MANDER, ALFRED CHARLES TINDALL Order
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 56
MANDER, ALFRED HENRY COOK Order
GRO Reference: 1901 S Quarter in KINGS NORTON Volume 06C Page 511
MANDER, ALGERNON MANDER Order
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 395
MANDER, ARTHUR WILLIAM MATTHEWS Order
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in BANBURY Volume 03A Page 1023
MANDER, BENJAMIN WILLIAM FORSTER Order
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 389
MANDER, BERNARD - Order
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in ALCESTER Volume 06D Page 734 Occasional Copy: A
MANDER, BERTIE WALTERS Order
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in WARWICK Volume 06D Page 714
MANDER, CHARLES BARLOW Order
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in STOKE UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 218
MANDER, CHARLES PRINCE Order
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in LEEK Volume 06B Page 319
MANDER, CHARLES DAVID PRICE Order
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in NORWICH Volume 04B Page 163
MANDER, CHARLES SEPTIMUS GUNN Order
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in AMERSHAM Volume 03A Page 777
MANDER, CHUSHAN R PRICE Order
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in STOURBRIDGE Volume 06C Page 219
MANDER, CLEMENT ROSS TURNER Order
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in KING'S NORTON Volume 06C Page 436
MANDER, CLIFFORD LEWIS Order
GRO Reference: 1899 D Quarter in BROMSGROVE Volume 06C Page 387
MANDER, CYRIL RICHARDSON Order
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 950
MANDER, DAVID EDWARD NASH Order
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in SHIPSTON ON STOUR Volume 06D Page 741
MANDER, DOUGLAS FREDERICK MURPHY Order
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in WALSALL Volume 06B Page 720
MANDER, EDGAR JEAVONS Order
GRO Reference: 1901 S Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 140
MANDER, EDMUND JAMES MATTHEWS Order
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in BANBURY Volume 03A Page 994
MANDER, EDWARD HAWKES Order
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 229
MANDER, EDWARD WALTERS Order
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in WARWICK Volume 06D Page 704
MANDER, EDWARD WILLIAM LAWLOR Order
GRO Reference: 1899 D Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 130
MANDER, ERNEST ALBERT STANLEY MITCHELL Order
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 510
MANDER, FRANCIS WHETTON Order
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 407
MANDER, FRANK HENRY PARKER Order
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in SOLIHULL Volume 06D Page 649
MANDER, FREDERIC CHARLES RIDGE GILLARD Order
GRO Reference: 1900 J Quarter in ROCHFORD Volume 04A Page 642
MANDER, FREDERICK CHARLES MORTON Order
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 588
MANDER, FREDERICK CHARLES RIGG Order
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in WALSALL Volume 06B Page 736
MANDER, FREDERICK CHARLES PARKER Order
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in SOLIHULL Volume 06D Page 623
MANDER, FREDERICK ERNEST HANSON Order
GRO Reference: 1901 S Quarter in KINGS NORTON Volume 06C Page 434
MANDER, GEORGE BROOKES Order
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 133
MANDER, GEORGE EDWARD GLEN Order
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in WARWICK Volume 06D Page 690
MANDER, GEORGE ERNEST LAYCOCK Order
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in BRADFORD Volume 09B Page 111
MANDER, GEORGE HERBERT HANSON Order
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in KING'S NORTON Volume 06C Page 443
MANDER, GEORGE JOSEPH DALTREY Order
GRO Reference: 1900 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 141
MANDER, GEORGE WILLIAM DAVIS Order
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 115
MANDER, GEORGE WILLIAM AYRISS Order
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in SHIPSTON ON STOUR Volume 06D Page 732
MANDER, GEORGE WILLIAM WEBB Order
GRO Reference: 1901 S Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 344
MANDER, GEORGE WILLIAM HENRY HARRISON Order
GRO Reference: 1899 D Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 866
MANDER, HAROLD - Order
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in LEIGH Volume 08C Page 311
MANDER, HAROLD LAMB Order
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 388
MANDER, HENRY GEORGE LARKIN Order
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 33
MANDER, HERBERT CLARKE Order
GRO Reference: 1898 D Quarter in COVENTRY Volume 06D Page 568
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
MANDER, HORACE CHARLES COLDICOTT Order
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 299
MANDER, HORACE HENRY LAMPREY Order
GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in WARWICK Volume 06D Page 655
MANDER, HORACE WILLIAM HISCOCK Order
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in READING Volume 02C Page 376
MANDER, JAMES MATTHEWS Order
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 46
MANDER, JOHN ELLIS HARRISON Order
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 149
MANDER, JOHN GEORGE SAWFORD Order
GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 557
MANDER, JOSEPH HARRISON Order
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 92
MANDER, JOSEPH SPENCER Order
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in BANBURY Volume 03A Page 992
MANDER, JOSEPH COLLIER Order
GRO Reference: 1900 J Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 10
MANDER, JOSEPH ARTHUR HOPKINSON Order
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in ASHBY DE LA ZOUCH Volume 07A Page 117
MANDER, JOSEPH CHARLES DALTREY Order
GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 163
MANDER, JOSEPH HARRY SHAW Order
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in CARLISLE Volume 10B Page 554
MANDER, LIONEL CHARLES LAMB Order
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 339
MANDER, MONTAGUE JEDDAH CLARK Order
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 510
MANDER, PERCY JOHN - Order
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 548
MANDER, REGINALD BEARLEY Order
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in SOLIHULL Volume 06D Page 692
MANDER, REGINALD COOPER Order
GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in STOURBRIDGE Volume 06C Page 205
MANDER, REGINALD JAMES JOSIAH ROBERTS Order
GRO Reference: 1899 D Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 685
MANDER, ROBERT CECIL HENSTRIDGE Order
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 471
MANDER, SIDNEY - Order
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 894
MANDER, STEWART THOMAS ELLINGHAM Order
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in LUTON Volume 03B Page 369
MANDER, THOMAS LAWLOR Order
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 128
MANDER, THOMAS JAMES WEBB Order
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 220
MANDER, THOMAS ROBERT CARSON Order
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 247
MANDER, THOMAS WILLIAM RICHARDSON Order
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 877
MANDER, WILFRED NEWMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in UPTON ON SEVERN Volume 06C Page 305
MANDER, WILLIAM ARTHUR JOHN PACKER Order
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 355
MANDER, WILLIAM EDWARD COOKE Order
GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in KING'S NORTON Volume 06C Page 476
MANDER, WILLIAM FRANK GUNN Order
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in AMERSHAM Volume 03A Page 743
MANDER, WILLIAM HENRY COOPER Order
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in STOURBRIDGE Volume 06C Page 213

[Terri]

Harold's there. There is no Mark - no marriage or death. I don't believe that was his given name.

[ElizabethHerts]

It is possible they weren't even born in the UK. Perhaps the family were already abroad?

[Terri]

It is possible, but the feeling is that wherever they might have been, they didn't marry in France. Maud's daughter was fairly certain that her mother told her that Mark was born in England. If not England or France, I'm guessing USA might be a possible. I haven't got an Ancestry sub for there, but I looked on the index and there was no Mark there that fitted either.

[Merry]

I'm a bit confused!

On the other thread there's a part where I thought you were quoting your new French contact.... You say the child of Maud was born in 1920 in Brentford (the father said to be Mark Mander) and that this child was given the name Randall. You don't say if that was Maud's surname. I looked on the 1939 register and found Winifred Randall (dob from your other thread) and she is living with Frederick C (b 30 Jun 1895) and Emily Elizabeth Randall (b 10 May 189?). So who are they? The Randall's seem to have married in 1918, her previous name being Underwood.

I know this wasn't what you were asking about :o

[Terri]

You're confused??? I'm having a genealogical nervous breakdown! :d
That is not MY Winifred Randall. (Well it might well be one of mine, I have a handful of Winifred Randalls, but it's not the French one).

After the Manders sacked Maude she retured to England and her daughter Winifred was born in Brentford, but her and mother Maud Randall returned to France where Winnie married Maurice Girard. Mark Mander was Winifred's father.

[Merry]

In that case, are you certain the 1920 birth cert is for the correct Winifred? It looks more likely that cert should be the birth record for this Winifred I've seen in 1939 (dob 12 Mar 1920) and who married Patrick J Gogan in Brentford in 1942. This family seem to have emigrated to America in 1956 - her dob was the same date on the passenger list.

It would be quite a coincidence for two Winifred J Randalls to be born on the same day in the same area, though not impossible of course! What was Maud's surname? (I am looking for Mark as well as asking about this!)

[Terri]

Maud Randall. Is it just Winifred Randall on the 1939 thing?

My Winifred is Winifred Joyce Randall, birth date is the same though. She was born Brentford 1920. I'm wondering if I have picked up the wrong birth cert ..........

EDIT No, the date is right, its on her marriage cert, how can I post it on here?

[Merry]

It's all right, I believe you! lol

On the 1939 Register the entry is Winifred J Randall b 10 Mar 1920.

Maybe she is the one b in Fulham and just a coincidence the dob is the same?

Births Jun 1920
Randall Winifred J mmn Wond Fulham 1a 567
Randall Winifred J mmn Randall Brentford 3a 376

I'm wondering if Emily Elizabeth Randall formerly Underwood was nee Wond?

This looks possible:

Births Jun 1891
Wond Emily Elizabeth Fulham 1a 341

I couldn't see her first marriage, but I think we do indeed have two Winifred's b the same day! lol (can I go to bed yet?!)

[Terri]

Go to bed Merry! Please go to bed, then I can go to bed too! lol!

So Winnie has a genealogical doppleganger. That will give me nightmares!

[Merry]

lol and Mark is being a bit tricky isn't he?!!

[Olde Crone]

OK I know this is rubbish but I shall burst if I don't say it.

Wond? Funny old name, that. I could easily make that into Mond. And from Mond to Mander.

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

There are other Randall/Wond births:

Margaret E Q4 1921 Fulham
Molly F Q4 1926 Fulham
Alma Q4 1929 Fulham

[Merry]

There is also one son under Underwood/Wond in 1916.

Terri, do I take it your contact knows nothing about Mark after his relationship with Maude? When Maude and Winifred went back to France was their contact with the Mander family?

[kiterunner]

I don't see how the Randall / Wond births could be connected to Terri's Winifred Randall since her MMN was definitely Randall? (If her mother wasn't Maud Randall then she isn't the Winifred who Terri is talking about!)

I think Mark Mander must be a false name.

[Terri]

Nothing is known about Mark after 1920.

I have scanned as much of the world as I am able and there is no appropriate Mark Mander.

I also think it wasn't his given name, but Maud worked in the Mander household for several years - surely she would have known that?

[ElizabethHerts]

How much research has been done in Paris? There must be records for the Mander family in Paris re. their business activities. Also, electoral records etc. It might be easier to find out about them there, then to look in the UK.

[ElizabethHerts]

I was thinking the same, Terri. If Maud worked with the family she knew what they were called. Unless she was lying and trying to put a gloss on things...

This happened in OH's family too.

[ElizabethHerts]

I keep thinking of variations of the surname - perhaps Mandel?

[Merry]

Would your contact have got her info from Maude herself or only from Winifred?

(I agree with Kate that the Wond/Underwood//Randall family can't be the right people - just a date coincidence. I'm sorry I brought them up now! :D At the start I thought you (your contact?) were saying Randall was a name picked out of thin air (perhaps because the child was going to be adopted by a Randall family) rather than it being Maude's birth surname :o)

[Terri]

I have no idea what is available re French research, and my new French cousins know absolutely nothing about genealogy. At the moment I'm ploughing through the newspaper archive in the hope that there might get a mention. There seem to have been very many "posh" Manders in the country!

I did notice on French stuff on Ancestry the name Mandar in Paris, but I couldnt access the details. I've checked Maunder also.

[Terri]

The information has come from Maude, she lived until 1971, but as was said in the first part of Maude's story "there are so many things she kept secret". Who knows why?

[Merry]

If they had lived in England and not France then the obvious would be to look at the electoral rolls for 43 avenue de l'Opera. Does anyone know if France has any similar accessible records?

[kiterunner]

Ancestry did have a database of electoral register records (cartes electorales) for the Paris area, mainly browse-only, but it was removed a while ago and they only have the index for surnames A-C now, no images. As far as I can see on Cyndi's List, it hasn't been moved to another site.

Also, I know I found my Pickford relatives on a French census on a pay site once, which kindly gave me one free lookup. It would have been an earlier date than you would need for the Manders though. Unfortunately, I can't find any trace of what site it was! But they weren't in the Paris area anyway.

[Terri]

I will ask the French family, but even if they weren't up on genealogy, I would have thought they would have tried the electoral roll route by now - they are scarily intellectual!

[Merry]

lol!

I know it probably doesn't make a lot of difference, but in post #1 you said Mark was probably b about 1900, but surely if he had been in a relationship with Maud for maybe 4 or 5 years ending in 1919 he must have been a bit older, at least?

[Terri]

Yes ........ I was told he was 20 when Winifred was born. He was definitely substantially younger than her, but 20 - after a 5 year relationship?? Made me cringe too.

Either fact may not be accurate. If she really was in a "relationship" - would it have take her 5 years to get pregnant?

Maybe he was a little older or maybe they were a bit closer in friendship than was deemed appropriate, but it didnt take off until he was closer in age to 20.

EDIT - Look at the French president's marriage!!

[Merry]

I agree with all of that!

[Terri]

Maude was insistent that Mark loved her and wanted to marry her - easy for him to say that when he knew there was no possibility of his family allowing it.

But, for the family to offer to adopt the child, he must have admitted that it was his which presumably he didn't have to do.

Proper Mills and Boon stuff this is!

The other thing that (for me) doesn't add up is why, if she gave up the baby, she could keep her job. Surely, having Mark and Maude still under the same roof would have been asking for trouble. Did they blame Mark and pack him off somewhere?? Maude was only a housemaid!

Something else I've just remembered - Winifred was taken to visit the Manders when she was about 5. She was taken by a French family friend, not Maude. I presume the Manders asked to see her and it was the one and only time she saw them.

[Mary from Italy]

The Paris civil registration indexes are online here (Births, marriages and deaths 1860-1932, marriages and deaths 1955-1974):

http://archives.paris.fr/s/7/tables-decennales/?

but you need to know the arrondissement where the event took place in order to search them.

[Terri]

Oooh thanks Mary!

[Terri]

I will ask the French family, but even if they weren't up on genealogy, I would have thought they would have tried the electoral roll route by now - they are scarily intellectual!

They had thought of that, but discounted it because the family would not have been eligible to vote in France

[Mary from Italy]

I've just done a quick search, and I've found a boy with the surname Randall born in the 16th arrondissement (which includes avenue de Neuilly) on 12th August 1918. Can you ask your contacts if they know anything about him?

[Mary from Italy]

According to the death index he died on the same day, so I can post his name: Carl F Randall.

[Terri]

That's a coincidence! Do you have a date, Mary? Sorry, you have put a date!

[Terri]

The Paris civil registration indexes are online here (Births, marriages and deaths 1860-1932, marriages and deaths 1955-1974):

http://archives.paris.fr/s/7/tables-decennales/?

but you need to know the arrondissement where the event took place in order to search them.

This is brilliant Mary, I am enjoying this! Thank you

[Merry]

If they were not eligible to vote because they were British wouldn't the sons have been called up for WW1? Maybe not in those days?

[Mary from Italy]

That's a coincidence! Do you have a date, Mary?

12th August 1918.

[Mary from Italy]

If they were not eligible to vote because they were British wouldn't the sons have been called up for WW1? Maybe not in those days?

If they had English nationality I don't think they'd have been called up in France.

There are some military records (up to 1940) on the Paris site I linked to above, but they're not all that easy to search (indexed by recruitment office and date of recruitment):

http://archives.paris.fr/s/13/tables-des-etats-signaletiques-et-des-services-militaires/?

[Terri]

If they were not eligible to vote because they were British wouldn't the sons have been called up for WW1? Maybe not in those days?

I did check Ancestry lists and CWGC etc.etc.

[Mary from Italy]

I've done a quick check of the main list ( Liste principale) for the 1st recruitment office (1er bureau) for 1914-1918, and the nearest name I can find is Charles Louis Manders, recruited in 1914.

However, there are another 5 offices to search, plus the supplementary lists.

[Mary from Italy]

The recruitment lists for WW2 aren't online yet; they can only be viewed at the archives.

[Terri]

I've checked the French bmds from 1913 to 1932 and deaths up to 1974 at theirlast 2 addreses - nothing!

After Winifred visited them around 1925 - they go off the radar. That was their last known address in France and they are not heard of by Maude again. I think that's when they left the country. Maybe that is why they wanted to see Winifred.

[Mary from Italy]

There's a Mandar recruited in 1919 (2nd office); the name looks English, but it's hard to decipher.

Something Jay Lewis; the first name might possibly be Henry, but I'm not convinced (p. 18):

http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6I jIwMTctMDUtMTUiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImF ya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MTM7czo0OiJyZWYyI jtpOjgzNTQ7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M 6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kI jt9#uielem_move=35%2C-959&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=156

The first letter of the first name looks like an L, and nothing like the H of the Henri further up the page.

[kiterunner]

According to the death index he died on the same day, so I can post his name: Carl F Randall.

If I'm reading the death entry correctly, that was an American soldier age 27?

Not sure whether this link will work but it is image no 17 in Actes d'etat civil 22 Jul 1918 to 7 Sep 1918 for arrondissement no 16, Décès, acte number is 1230.

http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6I jIwMTctMDUtMTUiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImF ya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NDtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO 2k6MjY2MDg3O3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTt zOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZ CI7fQ==#uielem_move=-11%2C-120&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=100&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F

[ElizabethHerts]

It looks like Lucien except for the last letter.

I found it on page 11.

[Mary from Italy]

If I'm reading the death entry correctly, that was an American soldier age 27?

Not sure whether this link will work but it is image no 17 in Actes d'etat civil 22 Jul 1918 to 7 Sep 1918 for arrondissement no 16, Décès, acte number is 1230.

http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6I jIwMTctMDUtMTUiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImF ya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NDtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO 2k6MjY2MDg3O3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTt zOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZ CI7fQ==#uielem_move=-11%2C-120&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=100&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F

Ah, well done, I'd only found the indexes so far. I didn't realise the actual certs were online for that year.

I've checked the birth index for that year again and there's no Randall, so I must have accidentally clicked on deaths when I thought I was searching births. Sorry about that!

[Terri]

There's a Mandar recruited in 1919 (2nd office); the name looks English, but it's hard to decipher.

Something Jay Lewis; the first name might possibly be Henry, but I'm not convinced (p. 18):

http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6I jIwMTctMDUtMTUiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImF ya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MTM7czo0OiJyZWYyI jtpOjgzNTQ7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M 6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kI jt9#uielem_move=35%2C-959&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=156

The first letter of the first name looks like an L, and nothing like the H of the Henri further up the page.

I saw that somewhere else Mary, I think it's Leroy Jay Lewis. Sounds very American

[Merry]

With regard to the family you mentioned at the beginning of this thread who don't seem to appear on the 1911 census...... if you wanted to make contact with someone who might at least know if the family had French connections or ever went to live there you could try this....

You mentioned Joseph Philip Mander as one of the children, b 22 Feb 1900 (from death reg)

As you said, Joseph married Gertrude Harrison (she was nee Frampton) but they don't seem to have had any children together. However, on the 1939 register there is a Harrison daughter from Gertrude's first marriage listed with them. The 1939 register given the future married surname for this lady and I see she married in Q2 of 1947 in Christchurch district (If you don't have a FMP sub you should still be able to find that marriage because there is only one Harrison match!). This couple had two sons and the older one appears on the erolls for Bournemouth up to 2014 (assuming it's the same man!). As this man was born in 1950 hopefully he would know something of his step-grandfather who lived in Bournemouth until his death in 1973. I can send you the address if you can't access it.

[Terri]

Yes please! Thank you very much Merry! That might the only chance to prove or disprove this lot.

Another thing I have noticed - considering these were business people - if this the right family, it is odd that none of them appear to have left a Will ............!

[kiterunner]

With regard to the family you mentioned at the beginning of this thread who don't seem to appear on the 1911 census...... if you wanted to make contact with someone who might at least know if the family had French connections or ever went to live there you could try this....



D'oh, I misunderstood Terri's post #1 to mean that she already knew that that particular Mander family did live in France - it was this bit in particular:


Frederick Harry Mander is an imported meats clerk in 1901: RG13; Piece: 3439; Folio: 66; Page: 16.
In the early 1920s, the family own a Charcuterie In Paris. A bit of a jump from an imported meats clerk, but I guess he had contacts???

In 1911 I can’t find the family at all, other than Joseph, who is with his Lamb grandparents.

They were in France during WWI, when they invested in Harry’s Bar in Paris.


I will have another look at it from the beginning now!

[kiterunner]

Frederick H Mander dies in Christchurch, Hants in 1957
Adelaide S Mander dies in Bournemouth in 1950
Lionel C Mander dies in Christchurch, Hants in 1956
Joseph Philip Mander dies in Bournemouth in 1973. Married Gertrude P Harrison in Bournemouth 1925. (Did Joseph remain in England)
Harold Mander (probably) dies in Honiton, Devon in 1970


If you get a copy of Joseph's marriage cert it will give Frederick's occupation, which might help. Also, what is Frederick's occupation on the 1939 Register? I don't think anyone has said yet?

[Merry]

I think it was retired clerk, but I'll double check later.

[Merry]

Terri, I'll pm you.

[kiterunner]

There is an entry in the 1924 and 1925 phone book:
Christchurch 73 Mander F H Riverside ho Quay rd

If only there were old Paris street directories and phone books online! I can't find many at all.

Anyway, you could look for Mander in Christchurch (or elsewhere!) in the England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932 on Findmypast. It looks as though Frederick and Adelaide maybe appear there around 1923, but the search on there is so vague it might not be them at all! I don't have a sub to view the images.

Edit - if it is Frederick and Adelaide there, does it rule them out as Winifred visited her Manders in France (I assume) around then?

[Merry]

When I'm looking for couples on those erolls in the 1920s+ on fmp I often use both forenames together in the search, so in this case Frederick Adelaide Mander, but in this case I got no matches. However, knowing you have that phone book entry makes me realise that this method doesn't always work. I then tried Frederick Riverside Mander and that worked, bringing up the whole family - Fred, Adelaide and the three sons at Riverside Quay Road in 1923 and 1924 (not after that though). If I go upstairs and look out of dau's bedroom window I can see Quay Road! Not sure if the house is still there though!

I've just looked at the 1939 register again. Frederick was a 'Japanese Merchant Clerk Retired' so I was partly right. Their address at that date was 9 Burcombe Road , Bournemouth. I tried Burcombe in the eroll search but got nothing.

[Terri]

Edit - if it is Frederick and Adelaide there, does it rule them out as Winifred visited her Manders in France (I assume) around then?

Quite possibly .......... assuming she was actually 5. Unfortunately, her memory of the event was almost non-existent. Just seemed odd - a one-off sudden visit.

[Anstey Nomad]

Just to say that pages back Frederic Mander was born in Allesley, Coventry. The Manders are a well known Coventry family who were of some substance.

[kiterunner]

This is Frederic Mander in 1911, AN, but his wife had died by then and they only had one child, a daughter:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_20876_0025_04/24049203?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911England%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_ r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3d fred*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmander%26gsln_x%3d1%26 msbdy%3d1864%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26MSAV%3d2% 26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Merry]

Just to say that pages back Frederic Mander was born in Allesley, Coventry. The Manders are a well known Coventry family who were of some substance.

I thought he was born in Stourbridge? His father was from Southampton :confused::confused::confused:

[kiterunner]

It looks as though Frederic Mander married a second time in 1916, to a Margaret Green (born 1875). He died in 1950 in Staffordshire. On the 1939 Register they are in Staffordshire with a Cyril Gilbert (born 1903) and a Harriett Green (born 1873). So if the Mrs Mander who was in Paris around 1920 was called Adelaide, it's not this family.

[kiterunner]

I thought he was born in Stourbridge? His father was from Southampton :confused::confused::confused:

A different Frederic, Merry.

[Merry]

It looks as though Frederic Mander married a second time in 1916, to a Margaret Green (born 1875). He died in 1950 in Staffordshire. On the 1939 Register they are in Staffordshire with a Cyril Gilbert (born 1903) and a Harriett Green (born 1873). So if the Mrs Mander who was in Paris around 1920 was called Adelaide, it's not this family.

So, what Frederic is this?

[Merry]

Ah, Ive just seen post #66 which I'd managed to avoid before!