Who Do You Think You Are - Ricky Tomlinson 22nd Dec

[kiterunner]

On BBC1 at 8 p.m., and repeated (with signing) Tues 27th / Wed 28th at 2:25 a.m. on BBC2.

After this episode there is a Christmas break.

[Guinevere]

Oh dear. Can't stand him ... :)

[Anstey Nomad]

Nor me ...

[ElizabethHerts]

Neither can I...

[Jill]

I hadn't liked David Dickinson until his WDYTYA, and liked Anne Reid until I saw hers so will wait & see about Ricky T.

[Margaret in Burton]

I really like Ricky Tomlinson

[Merry]

I really like Ricky Tomlinson

Ah good, now I can agree with someone! :D

[Margaret in Burton]

Really enjoyed that. He's down to earth. My sort of bloke. Can't be doing with pretentious types.

[Guinevere]

Thought it was a bit dull - no real meat on the bones. Interesting from a social history point of view if you weren't already aware of how it was for the poor.

Didn't find him as irritating as I normally do, perhaps because he was just being himself and sincere and not loud and "on show" as he can be on chat shows.

[kiterunner]

Episode synopsis:
Ricky Tomlinson lives in Liverpool with his wife Rita. He was born in 1939, the second of four children of Albert and Margaret Tomlinson. His father died at the age of 55.

Ricky met up with his elder brother Albert at Everton Park, which has replaced the streets where they used to live. Albert showed him an old photo of their paternal grandparents, and the death certificate of their grandfather, Richard Tomlinson, age 60, an asphalter's labourer. He also showed him Albert sr and Margaret's marriage certificate from May 1936, which gave Richard's occupation as carter.

Ricky went to Liverpool Central Library to meet a genealogist who showed him Richard's baptism record, which stated that his parents were Richard and Sarah Tomlinson, Richard sr's occupation also carter.

Richard sr's birth certificate from 1847 showed that his parents were William Tomlinson and Mary nee Leicester, with William's occupation also carter. Their marriage certificate from 1845 showed both their residences as Hill Street, and his father as Richard Tomlinson, carter.

Ricky found out about working conditions for carters in the early 19th century.
He was shown a report in the local paper from 1839 of the death of Mr Richard Tomlinson, cart-owner, age 60, who was crushed between his cart and a lorry. This was Ricky's 3xg-grandfather.

Ricky met an historian at the docks, who showed him the 1851 census entry for William and Mary with 4 of their eventual total of 7 children, living at Aegea Street, in a suburban area. The local paper from 1 Sep 1859 reported on the death of William Tomlinson, age 40, who was crushed to death between his cart-wheel and a pile of staves. The report said that his widow had to go home to her baby, who was also dying. The jury complained (i.e. upheld a complaint from the widow) that the surgeon had "opened William's body" (i.e. carried out a post-mortem) without permission. William was buried 4 Sep 1859 in a common grave. The death certificate of George Tomlinson, age 2, showed that he died on the 11th Sep 1859 of diarrhoea.

Ricky looked online at the 1861 census, where Mary was living at 13 Stuart's Building, Everton, age 35, with six children, the oldest of whom were working as seamstresses and errand boys, the youngest "scholars". There were several lodgers also listed at the address.
Ricky went to see where Stuart's Building was but it had been demolished. However, he got to see a similar building, "court and cellar dwellings".

The researcher couldn't find Mary on the 1871 census. Ricky went to Liverpool Archives, where he was told that there was no record of Mary in the workhouse records, but that the Industrial School records showed that her daughter Mary Ann, age 7, and son Thomas, age 9, were admitted in 1862, "deserted by mother".

A marriage certificate from 1871 showed that Mary, a 44-year-old widow, married John McFee, age 40, a bachelor. On the 1871 census the couple had three children, the eldest being 9 years old, so born about the time that Thomas and Mary Ann went into the industrial school.

Ricky was then shown the 1884 marriage certificate of his great-grandparents: Richard Tomlinson, widower, carter, and Sarah Ann Lavery. One of the witnesses was William McFee. Mary died in the same year, of a stroke.

The 1890 Liverpool Review reported that the carters were forming a union.

The 1911 census showed Richard Tomlinson, age 64, with his family, living at 31 Elias Street.

[kiterunner]

Funny that the genealogist said the Tomlinson family couldn't be traced back past the start of civil registration. Couldn't they be found in parish registers? And I assume they had more information about the three McFee children and their parentage, which they didn't show us?

[crawfie]

On the marriage cert for Richard T and Sarah Ann Lavery, Richard was a Widower, but there was no information given about his previous wife. Maybe there were no children from this marriage, so it was not thought interesting enough.

[kiterunner]

I see that the John McFee / Mary Tomlinson marriage was Jul-Sep 1871 Birkenhead.

[kiterunner]

This is the McFee family on the 1871 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LANRG10_3807_3809-0545/16030738?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

127 Haigh Street, Everton, Liverpool
John McFee Head Married 41 Tin Plate Worker Scotland Wigtownshire
Mary Do Wife Do 44 Lancashire Liverpool
John Do Son 9 Scholar Do Do
James Do Son 6 Do Do Do
William Do Son 5 Do Do Do

(they were mistranscribed as McGee on ancestry so took a bit of finding!)

[kiterunner]

Not sure whether this is John McFee jr's baptism record as the father's occupation is Brass Founder:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2196/engl56170_283-pet-2-54_m_00077/2846878?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
His dob is given as 8 Apr 1862 and there is a Sarah born 17 Jul 1863.

Edit - yes, this is the right family as the MMN for Sarah's birth on the GRO online birth index is Lester.

[kiterunner]

There is also a Hugh McFee with MMN Leicester born Jul-Sep 1869. Likely death for Sarah Oct-Dec 1864, age 1, and for Hugh Oct-Dec 1869, age 0.
And this is William McFee's baptism, 16 Jul 1866 at St Peter's, Liverpool, with father's occupation as Tinman:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2196/engl56170_283-pet-2-59_m_00045/2820730?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

I wonder whether they had any evidence for their theory of why John and Mary waited so long to get married? Ricky said some nasty things about John McFee but they may not have been warranted for all we know.

[kiterunner]

On the marriage cert for Richard T and Sarah Ann Lavery, Richard was a Widower, but there was no information given about his previous wife. Maybe there were no children from this marriage, so it was not thought interesting enough.

This looks to be Richard with his first wife on the 1881 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LANRG11_3655_3659-0096/8983030?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
No 4 Amelia St, Everton
Richard Tomlinson Head Mar 34 Carter Liverpool
Anna Do Wife Mar 37 Cheshire Chester
Charles Do Son 8 Scholar Liverpool
James Davis Lodger Unm 20 Carter Yorkshire Middlesbrough

I suppose this must be their marriage although her name is Emma and she is younger than Richard?
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2197/englb5617_283-ptr-3-5_m_00224/1496911?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
4 Feb 1877 Everton St Peter
Richard Tomlinson, 29, bachelor, carter, residence 48 Stonewall Street, father William Tomlinson, carter, and Emma Cooper, 24, spinster, 28 Spellow Lane, father Robert Cooper, cordwainer.

There must be more to find out here but I have to go and do some other things right now...

Maybe if they had included this story it would have messed up the theme of Ricky's ancestors being done wrong by everybody? For instance, Richard having a young lodger who is also a carter, when they were saying that Mary took in lodgers as a last resort because she was so short of money, and did Richard maybe employ the young lodger, becoming an evil employer instead of a downtrodden grafter? I noticed that the earlier Richard who died in 1839 was "Mr Richard Tomlinson, cart-owner" in the newspaper story, which also made me wonder whether he was an employer.

[kiterunner]

Emma Tomlinson's death registered Jan-Mar 1879 W Derby, age 26. There is a Richard Tomlinson marriage in W Derby Oct-Dec 1880 to an Annie Sherlock, but it is Register Office or Registrar Attended so won't be in the church registers.

[kiterunner]

Oh, and Annie Tomlinson death 1883 W Derby age 40.

[Lindsay]

Interesting about the illegal post mortem. My 3 year old 4xg-aunt was run over and killed by a carriage in Westminster (the passenger was a Royal Highness, no less) and her father complained bitterly at the inquest that the doctors had 'opened the body'. He wanted to know if he could do anything about it, but whatever the coroner's response was, it wasn't mentioned in the newspaper report.

[Ann from Sussex]

It was interesting but I did get a bit tired of the chip-on-shoulder-my-poor-downtrodden-Liverpudlian-ancestors theme. I wanted to point out to him that those kind of living and working conditions were the norm for all workers in those days, not just in Liverpool or any other northern city. My ancestors were living in just the same way in the courts and yards of Limehouse, Poplar and Covent Garden in London at that time. Apart from that, I did quite warm to him and his brother when they were having a pint together.

[Tom Tom]

I thought it was interesting overall, and has spurred me on to find out some more about my ggg grandfather who moved from Scotland to Liverpool in th late 1800s. He worked as a dock board messenger.
One thing I did notice was that one of the (many!) certificates, had been printed in 2012. Makes you wonder how far in advance they do the research and whether they make them and save them, waiting for the best series in which to put them.

[maggie_4_7]

With post mortems I don't think you had choice then or even now.

If someone dies in an accident or in unusual circumstances and hasn't been attended by a doctor for anything in the near past a post mortem is mandatory. The Coroner does not need to get anyone's permission if the Coroner asks for a post mortem they get it.

[Katarzyna]

True Maggie and you would have thought the researcher would have pointed that out to him. It could be that the relatives were in horror that the PM had taken place - not a nice thing to have to have done to a close relative.

[Ann from Sussex]

True Maggie and you would have thought the researcher would have pointed that out to him. It could be that the relatives were in horror that the PM had taken place - not a nice thing to have to have done to a close relative.

Wasn't he told (by a medical historian I think) that the post mortem had been done illegally?

[Lindsay]

Wasn't he told (by a medical historian I think) that the post mortem had been done illegally?

Yes, the expert was quite clear that it was illegal, as the cause of death was obvious.

At my ggg-aunt's inquest, although the coroner didn't comment on the legality or otherwise of the PM the newspaper article did quote 2 jurors - one who said hospital doctors had the privilege of examining anyone brought in, while another said they did so at their peril.

I thought it must be rather a grey area, so I was surprised the expert was so emphatic that it was illegal.

[Ann from Sussex]

WDYTYA seems to have disappeared from the schedule. I expected it to be back this week after the Christmas break but there is no sign of it. The BBC website just says "more information coming soon" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0842jfc/episodes/guide). Why do they do that to a series?