Elizabeth Lowder

[kiterunner]

I'm looking at the will of John Lowder Esqr of Bath, banker, written on the 25th May 1802 and proved at the PCC 19 Jul 1810. He mentions his wife Ann, who was nee Ann Glass, daughter of Dr Thomas Glass of Exeter (they married 1 May 1778 at St Mary Arches, Exeter). Then his daughters Elizabeth Kay, the wife of William Kay of Rochdale, Cotton Manufacturer, and Mary Ann Lees, the wife of John Lees of Fairfield, Lancashire, merchant. Then any other children. A codicil from 1806 mentions that his son John Lowder was now married.

On FreeREG they have 27 Aug 1799 at St Swithin, Walcot, Bath, John Lees of the County of Lancaster married Mariaine Lowder, by licence, and then 1 Jan 1802 at the same church, William Kay, bachelor, of Rochdale, married Elizabeth Lowder, spinster, also by licence.

I have found baptisms for children of John and Ann Lowder listed on FMP and FamilySearch at Southampton St Lawrence & St John: Thomas Glass Lowder 1779, Mary Ann 1780, John 3 Nov 1781 (or 1782?) and William 20 Nov 1783.

But can anyone find Elizabeth's baptism, please? I'm not sure whether she was born after 1783, making her pretty young when she got married, or if she was born before 1779, either very soon after John and Ann's wedding, or was she John's daughter by a previous marriage? The fact that she is mentioned before Mary Ann in the will suggests that she was the elder of the two.

[Merry]

John Lowder's death is reported in the Bristol Mirror 26 May 1810. He was aged 72.

[Merry]

Is Miss Glass your relation? (I'm thinking Glasscodine, or however it's spelled)

She is described as "an agreeable young lady with a genteel fortune and every qualification to render the marriage state happy" in the Hampshire Chronicle 11 May 1778 :)

[Merry]

No luck with that bap at the moment :(

[ElizabethHerts]

I can't find her either, Kate.

[Mary from Italy]

Any chance of finding the marriage bond/allegation, which should give Elizabeth's age?

[kiterunner]

John Lowder's death is reported in the Bristol Mirror 26 May 1810. He was aged 72.

Thanks, Merry. So, quite likely he was married before.

Is Miss Glass your relation? (I'm thinking Glasscodine, or however it's spelled)

She is described as "an agreeable young lady with a genteel fortune and every qualification to render the marriage state happy" in the Hampshire Chronicle 11 May 1778 :)
And thanks for that too!

Strangely enough, Ann Glass is from a side-branch of my Grandpa's tree - her mother was one of Sir Nathaniel Hodges' daughters, sister to my Frances Hodges - yet she ended up living round the corner from my Granny's Glass / Glasscodine ancestors, and was buried in the same churchyard as them! I'm sure there can't be any connection between the two families, but I'm sure that in a couple of years if someone asks me about Ann Glass and I look her up on my tree and see her burial place, I will assume she is from the other family and get mightily confused!

Thanks for looking, Elizabeth and Mary. I'll see if there is a way of getting the bond and / or allegation.

[kiterunner]

The London Gazette has an entry in 1807 which refers to William Kay as late of Rochdale, now of Manchester. Wondering whether I can find Elizabeth's death or burial record to see her age at death, though it might be a needle in a haystack.

[kiterunner]

John Lowder jr's will (1829) mentions a brother Charles Lowder. I am guessing that he is younger than John jr as he wasn't mentioned by name in their father's will.

[Merry]

Someone on Rootschat said something about reading that JL had been a commander in the Navy before his marriage, but I haven't seen anything to confirm that.

[Merry]

Oh, here's a clue re finding Elizabeth:

Liverpool Mail Merseyside, England
5 Feb 1853
METEOROLOGICAL TABLE
Parish Church. West Drayton. Middlesex. the Rev. E. Allea. rector of Hartley, Kent, the Rev. John Lowder Kay, M.A., third son of the late William Kay. Esq., of Grove-house, near this town, to Anne, eldest daughter of Henry Lamb, Esq., Salisbury-square,

Here's the marriage cert:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_198908-00026/7734730?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dRAw1666%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmamarriages%26 so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dhenry%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dlamb%26gsln_x%3 d1%26msgdy%3d1853%26msgdy_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d 11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

JLK's death:

Deaths Mar 1877 KAY JOHN LOWDER 59 Brackley 3b 8

so born around 1818.

Positive sighting on the 1861 census as he used his middle name (spelled Louder by ancestry) b 1819 Manchester (I was hoping for somewhere smaller lol)

Oxford University Alumni describes Wm, father of JLK as of Ardwick nr Manchester.

Hmm..... am stuck now lol

[Merry]

There's a William Kay Close in Moss Side Manchester!

It would have been helpful if his son hadn't just said gentleman for his late father's occ. I guess he may have been some sort of manufacturer?

[Merry]

Ooh, the address of the International Society charity:

William Kay House, 327 Oxford Road, Atherton, Manchester, Greater Manchester, M13 9PG

I have to do other things now..........:D

[ElizabethHerts]

The TNA Discovery catalogue has a few mentions of John Lowder:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/a9271cf6-9963-4fe0-a886-a9191592f3d8

The above is regarding his unnamed children.

[ElizabethHerts]

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7934133

The above relates to the Kay family, naming quite a few of them.

[ElizabethHerts]

Reference: PROB 11/1138/325
Description: Will of Thomas Glass, Doctor of Physic of Exeter , Devon
Date: 27 February 1786
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

He mentions his daughter Ann Lowder and his grandchildren, but not by name as far as I can see, but it is extremely long and I have only briefly scanned it.

[ElizabethHerts]

The will of Ann Lowder 1821 should be on Ancestry:

Reference: PROB 11/1650/180
Description: Will of Ann Lowder, Widow of Walcot , Somerset
Date: 20 November 1821
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

[kiterunner]

Yes, I've seen Thomas Glass's will before, thanks, Elizabeth. And thanks for the other finds!

[kiterunner]

The will of Ann Lowder 1821 should be on Ancestry:

Reference: PROB 11/1650/180
Description: Will of Ann Lowder, Widow of Walcot , Somerset
Date: 20 November 1821
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

That's interesting. I was looking on ancestry yesterday to see if she left a will but found nothing. I will look again!

[kiterunner]

Ah, they have indexed her as Lawder!

[kiterunner]

Well, she calls Elizabeth "my daughter" in the will, though I suppose it could mean stepdaughter.

[kiterunner]

But she goes on to say "my five children by my late husband" and she has said that there are two daughters, Elizabeth and Mary Ann, and three sons, Thomas Glass, John and Charles, as William had died, so I would say that settles it! Elizabeth is definitely Ann's daughter. Glad you pointed out the will, Elizabeth!

[ElizabethHerts]

Ah, they have indexed her as Lawder!

I couldn't find her will either, but I was feeding my 9-month-old granddaughter Weetabix!

[kiterunner]

Oxford University Alumni describes Wm, father of JLK as of Ardwick nr Manchester.


Also, it says "arm.", which should mean that he had a coat of arms!

[Merry]

This entry seems to list the children of Wm Kay:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7934133

I bet this is Charles:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1466_1466-0483?pid=2045782&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DpIU791%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1851%26gs s%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26 gsfn%3Dcharles%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dkay%26gsln_x% 3D1%26gskw%3Dmanchester%26gskw_x%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26 cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3D672 %26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D2%26h%3D2045782%26recoff%3D5%2 5206%26ml_rpos%3D3&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=pIU791&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

(note the 6 year old with no relationship!)

[ElizabethHerts]

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7934133

The above relates to the Kay family, naming quite a few of them.

You found it too, Merry!

[Merry]

Oh, Margaret from my last post was Margaret Lowder at their marriage in 1839 in Bath district.

[Merry]

Marriage cert:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60858/42886_1831109388_0682-00198/2755359?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dpIU797%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dsomersetparishma rriages%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dan gs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dcha rles%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dkay%26gsln_x%3d1%26msgd y%3d1839%26msgdy_x%3d1%26mssng%3dmarg*%26mssng_x%3 d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV% 3d2%26uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Merry]

Sorry Elizabeth!

This is Wm Kay senr with some of his children in 1841. I know it's them because three of the girls are together and unmarried in 1861 (inc Eliza Lowder Kay). William was indexed as 44 but he's 66 I think.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/LANHO107_567_568-0388?pid=5970092&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DpIU801%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1841%26gs s%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26 gsfn%3Dcaroline%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dkay%26gsln_x %3D1%26msbdy%3D1816%26msbdy_x%3D1%26msbdp%3D5%26cp xt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D2%26u idh%3D672%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D5970092%26rec off%3D8%25209%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=pIU801&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

So, no help with his wife except she is prob dec'd :o

[Merry]

Wm's death is in Q4 1846 aged 71 (West Derby)

[kiterunner]

I found a thread on Rootschat about this family which says there is a death notice 23 May 1829 in the Worcester Herald for Elizabeth, wife of Wm Kay Esq, at Grove House, near Liverpool, youngest daughter of John Lowder Esq, and this is her burial record, giving her age at death as 44:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2972/40612_B0150421-00066/2624962?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

Unusual for her to be named before her elder sister in both parents' wills. At least I know for sure where she fits in now.

[kiterunner]

Wow, a lot of posts for me to catch up on from while I was looking at that! Thanks, everyone!

[Merry]

I was hoping Wm's burial would lead us to Elizabeth's but I can't find one for Wm!

[kiterunner]

Sorry Elizabeth!

This is Wm Kay senr with some of his children in 1841. I know it's them because three of the girls are together and unmarried in 1861 (inc Eliza Lowder Kay). William was indexed as 44 but he's 66 I think.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/LANHO107_567_568-0388?pid=5970092&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DpIU801%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1841%26gs s%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26 gsfn%3Dcaroline%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dkay%26gsln_x %3D1%26msbdy%3D1816%26msbdy_x%3D1%26msbdp%3D5%26cp xt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D2%26u idh%3D672%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D5970092%26rec off%3D8%25209%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=pIU801&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

So, no help with his wife except she is prob dec'd :o

And his address is Grove House!

[Merry]

I found a thread on Rootschat about this family which says there is a death notice 23 May 1829 in the Worcester Herald for Elizabeth, wife of Wm Kay Esq, at Grove House, near Liverpool, youngest daughter of John Lowder Esq, and this is her burial record, giving her age at death as 44:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2972/40612_B0150421-00066/2624962?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

Unusual for her to be named before her elder sister in both parents' wills. At least I know for sure where she fits in now.

Oops, I missed this post.

[Merry]

lol All those Lowder Kay searches I did on fmp newspaper archive and nothing! Put in Kay Grove House and there are several copies of the same death notice all mentioning her father as well as her husband

[kiterunner]

If William died in 1846, how come he was still the plaintiff in that case from 1848? Or is it his son?

[Merry]

Hmmm...... I would look for a death notice including the words Grove House if I had the time, as I only tried his name before, but I have to go out now!

[kiterunner]

The British Newspaper Archive has a death notice for William Kay Esq of Grove House, died 18th Dec 1846, age 71, so that death registration you found is definitely the right one, Merry.

[kiterunner]

It seems that John Lowder was a builder as well as a banker, and was involved in building Lansdown Crescent in Bath, when my other Glass family (the Glasscodines) were tilers and plasterers in the area, so I wonder whether they worked for him?!

[ElizabethHerts]

In the marriage Merry posted one of them was living at 1 Lansdown Crescent, the other at 2 Lansdown Cresent.

[kiterunner]

In the marriage Merry posted one of them was living at 1 Lansdown Crescent, the other at 2 Lansdown Cresent.

Interesting!

[Merry]

Burial: 19 May 1829 Low Hill Cemetery, Everton, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Kay -
Age: 44
Abode: Grove House
Register: Burials 1825 - 1830, Page 33, Entry 2330
Source: LDS Film 560881

Lancs OPC only has up to 1837 for this cemetery.

[Merry]

But can anyone find Elizabeth's baptism, please?

Of course we could have skipped all the other posts and gone straight to....

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60856/42886_1831109388_0669-00110/2482163?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dpIU813%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dsomersetparishea rly%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3deliz*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dlowder%26gsln_x %3d1%26msbdy%3d1785%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26ms fng%3djohn%26msfng_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26ca tbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Bottom right entry!

[Merry]

So she was 17 years and 2 months when she married Wm Kay and he was roughly ten years older.

[ElizabethHerts]

Ooh, well done, Merry!

[kiterunner]

Yes, well done! How did you find that?

[kiterunner]

Oh, ancestry have transcribed the mother's name as "Lowder Lowder" so that's why it never came up on my searches!

[kiterunner]

This is the image for Elizabeth's burial record, Merry:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2972/40612_B0150421-00066/2624962?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/19209336/person/260052347977/facts

[Merry]

Interesting - what's the cause of death? Ossification?? Is that hardening of the arteries?

I think I found the bap because, as I was only looking over a small time frame this time, I only entered father's name and not mother's. :D

[kiterunner]

I've found a book on Google Books about "Registration of the causes of death" and the index includes Ossification (vague) Of the heart valves - or arteries?
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Dts_AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=cause+of+death+ossification&source=bl&ots=erxwDoadNi&sig=J4yFoPEja1vj3h9HJ_MKmEceXs4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju7KjxguDQAhXDWhQKHX3JBycQ6AEINDAF#v=on epage&q=cause%20of%20death%20ossification&f=false

I suppose it's an acceptable cause of death on a burial record, though!

[Merry]

She is probably one of the few on that page who had actually seen a doctor and received some sort of diagnosis.

[kiterunner]

Yes, I should think so. Her family probably knew a few doctors since her grandfather was Dr Thomas Glass, "physician of Georgian Exeter"!

It turns out that John and Ann had two sons named William, the first died in 1784 in Southampton and then the second one was baptised 21 Oct 1786 at Walcot St Swithin. I found Charles's baptism there too, 25 Jan 1789.

My mum, brother, and I went to look for Glass/codine gravestones at Walcot St Swithins a few years ago, but there was practically nothing of the churchyard and graveyard left. I would be kicking myself if I thought I had missed seeing the Lowder gravestones, but they will have gone long ago.

[Merry]

That book is very interesting. Clearly there were a lot of people who should have read it but didn't!!