Frederick Gilbert whereabouts 1881/1911

[CuriousKat]

Hi can you help me fill in the whereabouts of Frederick Gilbert between 1881-1911?
He was born Frederick Manning to Sarah Manning in Woodbridge Suffolk 1870. He's with her on the 1871 census living in Ufford with her parents, by 1881 he is living with his mother & her new husband David Gilbert, he goes by Frederick Gilbert, that's the last i pick him up on a census.
In 1941 he marries Eva Savory in York & he is almost certainly with her in 1923 when her son Ernest Gilbert Savory is born, there is no father listed on his birth certificate & he later drops the the Savory for Gilbert.
I think i pick Frederick up once in 1905 HMP wakefield for sleeping out.

he's on the 1939 register living at 85 Crombie Avenue with Eva & several others, 5 others are closed.
I've posted this before on another site, but you guys are amazing so hoping you can help me find him.
Jackie:)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=731111.msg5759539#msg5759539

[ElizabethHerts]

The link for the 1939 Register:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fr39%2f3900%2f3900g%2f015&parentid=tna%2fr39%2f3900%2f3900g%2f015%2f26

[ElizabethHerts]

According to the 1939 Register, Fred's date of birth was 31st January 1869.

[CuriousKat]

According to the 1939 Register, Fred's date of birth was 31st January 1869. Odd as i found today his baptism, does not give a dob, i know it's him as on the same day she along with David have 2 of his half siblings baptised.


First name(s) Frederick
Last name Manning
Baptism year 1876
Baptism date 03 Dec 1876
Parish St Mary
Place Ufford
Father's first name(s) -
Mother's first name(s) Sarah
Residence Ufford
Notes sp
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (part 4)
Entry No 289
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

[kiterunner]

Maybe his dob was actually 31 Jan 1870 and he got it wrong.

[kiterunner]

For reference, his occupation on that 1905 Wakefield criminal record is Painter (if it is him).

[ElizabethHerts]

Jackie, when did he die?

[CuriousKat]

On his marriage cert he lists himself as a general laborer?
I wish i had a time machine for the intricacies of family realtionships!!
He's baptized Manning at the age of 7 in 1876, 4 years after David & Sarah were married, in 1881 he's morphed into a Gilbert & even lists David as his father on his marriage cert!

[CuriousKat]

Jackie, when did he die? He died in 1944.

[Merry]

in 1881 he's morphed into a Gilbert & even lists David as his father on his marriage cert!


I expect he believed David was his father. Do you know that he (David) definitely wasn't?

[Merry]

Did he say he was a bachelor when he married Eva?

[ElizabethHerts]

He died in 1944.

His death certificate seems to indicate a dob of earlier than 1869.

First name(s) FREDERICK
Last name GILBERT
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1867
Age 77
Death quarter 1
Death year 1944
District YORK
County Yorkshire
Volume 9C
Page 1064

[CuriousKat]

I expect he believed David was his father. Do you know that he (David) definitely wasn't?

Not for sure but his mother is living with her parents & Frederick in 1871 & he's a Manning then no sign of David. Plus if he was his father wouldn't he have been been on the baptism certificate? he's on the other 2 siblings?
I wonder what the SP in the notes on the certificate means? maybe it's a clue?

[CuriousKat]

Did he say he was a bachelor when he married Eva?

Yes & she was a widower ( William Savory)

[kiterunner]

So, have you found his first marriage?

There wouldn't be one if he was a bachelor. :confused:

[Merry]

Yes, but when I read "Yes and she was a widow" I decided I'd asked if he was a widower instead of what I did ask!

[kiterunner]

Not for sure but his mother is living with her parents & Frederick in 1871 & he's a Manning then no sign of David. Plus if he was his father wouldn't he have been been on the baptism certificate? he's on the other 2 siblings?
I wonder what the SP in the notes on the certificate means? maybe it's a clue?

It will be an abbreviation for spinster, i.e. Sarah was a spinster when he was born.
I believe that some vicars insisted on showing that a child was illegitimate on the baptism record, even if the parents had married by the time of the baptism, so that could be the reason that David isn't named as the father. (Though I have also seen baptism records where it seems very unlikely or impossible that the person named as the father was actually the biological father.)

[kiterunner]

Oh, I also wanted to say - it was quite common for people to name their stepfather as their father on their marriage certificate, rather than have to go into the whole story of their illegitimate birth! So that doesn't really prove whether David Gilbert was his biological father or not.

[CuriousKat]

Oh, I also wanted to say - it was quite common for people to name their stepfather as their father on their marriage certificate, rather than have to go into the whole story of their illegitimate birth! So that doesn't really prove whether David Gilbert was his biological father or not.

:confused::mad:
This family is so confusing, & sneaky is the word that comes to mind, but i don't think it is! My last post about the Cockayne connection Fredericks wife Eva was married to the son (William) of Annie Elizabeth Savory. Another post i made James A savory is Eva's son whom i can't find! She had what looks like 9 children with 2 possibly 3 different men! But the little memories relatives have of her are as a severe do righter woman! There was a William Crosby/Crosbie b 1905 before she married William Savory & i'm currently trying to track down Henry G Savory b 1916, the G probably stands for Gilbert, but again i can't find him either! :mad: :mad:

[kiterunner]

I wonder whether Frederick was in the army, navy, or merchant navy, but not managed to find anything. But that wouldn't fit with him being a painter in 1905 unless he had left by then, in which case he should be on the 1911 census and I haven't found him on there.

[CuriousKat]

I thought that as 2 of his sons signed up to the forces, but it's just a working theory!
There is also a probate entry for Frederick William Gilbert, widow Eva
I always thought he passed 1944 but this is 1945 & i have never heard the William before.
Frederick William Gilbert
Death Date: 19 Oct 1945
Death Place: Kingston Upon Hull
Probate Date: 19 Feb 1946
Registry: York, England

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1904&h=15523428&ssrc=pt&tid=74916287&pid=44301972391&usePUB=true

[kiterunner]

The 1939 Register apparently has a Frederick W Gilbert, dob 1 Dec 1887, Department Manager (Ship Owner's Assistant) living in Hull with wife Eva Gilbert, so I assume that he is the one whose probate entry you were looking at. (I couldn't confirm his details on the image because his record was not showing.)

[CuriousKat]

Scratch that as i can see him on the 1939 register with his Eva
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmpqxfhw6p3mbpsofhv2mva47pefqwd jhighimpu5ta%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true

[Merry]

In 1901 and 1911 Frederick's mother, Sarah, has son William Gilbert in her household, aged 12 in 1901 and 20 in 1911. He is born in Ireland (more specifically in 1911 Caire (?) in Tipperary), so I wondered if when the family returned to York whether they left Frederick behind?

No luck with the Irish 1901/11 censuses though.

[Merry]

So David died in Ireland?


Name: David Gilbert
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1890
Death Age: 50
Registration district: Clogheen (in Tipperary)
Volume: 4
Page: 351
FHL Film Number: 01596

[CuriousKat]

It's odd that the others are on census returns with her but not him! I spoke to a relative of Harry Gilbert but they were in the dark about Frederick other than the basics.
In 1911 sarah said she had 8 surviving children, i'm trying to work out who they are (maybe he was with 1 of them? Loong shot) i've got
Harry, Alice, Ellen, William, Ada, David i presume she's counted Frederick.

[Merry]

She probably did include him, but she shouldn't have done, so you cant be sure!

[CuriousKat]

:confused::mad:
This family is so confusing, & sneaky is the word that comes to mind, but i don't think it is! My last post about the Cockayne connection Fredericks wife Eva was married to the son (William) of Annie Elizabeth Savory. Another post i made James A savory is Eva's son whom i can't find! She had what looks like 9 children with 2 possibly 3 different men! But the little memories relatives have of her are as a severe do righter woman! There was a William Crosby/Crosbie b 1905 before she married William Savory & i'm currently trying to track down Henry G Savory b 1916, the G probably stands for Gilbert, but again i can't find him either! :mad: :mad:

***
The G does stand for Gilbert. Henry Gilbert Savory known as Harry, He's on the 1939 register. So that means that Frederick was with Eva in York from 1916 at least now, though i still can not find him on the 1881/91 or 1911 census returns! Where on earth is he hiding? :mad::mad::mad:

[kiterunner]

Having read back through this thread, I'm not sure whether you ever viewed William Gilbert's 1890 birth registration on the free Irish Civil Records site?
Not sure whether this link will work as I seem to remember there is some trick, but I don't remember what it is!
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02406/1897298.pdf

William was born 14 Sep 1890 Cahir Barracks, with father David Gilbert being an Army Pensioner. So maybe Frederick joined the army in Ireland.

[CuriousKat]

Having read back through this thread, I'm not sure whether you ever viewed William Gilbert's 1890 birth registration on the free Irish Civil Records site?
Not sure whether this link will work as I seem to remember there is some trick, but I don't remember what it is!
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02406/1897298.pdf

William was born 14 Sep 1890 Cahir Barracks, with father David Gilbert being an Army Pensioner. So maybe Frederick joined the army in Ireland.

I never thought of checking those records, will they be on ancestry/ fmp or is there a specialist Irish site? I shall have a look now.

[kiterunner]

Which records do you mean, Irish civil registration or Irish army records?

[CuriousKat]

Irish Army.
But i'm fairly sure i found him in 1891! Woohoo!
Ancestry have him as Fred Gibbert! he is in Putney with his brother Harry.
Piece: 452
Folio: 75
Page Number: 16

[kiterunner]

This is that Fred in 1881, which I think rules him out, doesn't it?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LINRG11_3208_3211-0520/12542670?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

[CuriousKat]

This is that Fred in 1881, which I think rules him out, doesn't it?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LINRG11_3208_3211-0520/12542670?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
;(;(;( Sobs, your right! So back to Irish army records!
This chap does not want to be found!

[kiterunner]

For the dates that we're looking at, Irish army records would be included in the British army records on FMP.