View Full Version : Blank Space for Father on Marriage Cert
BlueSavannah
17-01-16, 16:10
Hi All,
I know that generally a blank space in the name of father box on a marriage cert means that the person was illegitimate, but has anyone had this when it was known that a child was legitimately born?
I'm asking because my great grandfather did this but my nan's story for this was because his parents had disowned him as he had to chose between the family and his wife to be as they felt she was beneath him. Now I did think that this was an elaborate cover story for his illegitimacy but my nan also gave information about the few of his siblings she had very occasionally met and I have found a family in Sheffield which perfectly fits the people she has described etc.
I have previously asked numerous times about this man as I have no real info on him from his birth cert (which I believe I have the right one but its 4 years before he claimed he was born on his marriage cert / 1939 register) and when he marries in 1917. I do who I believe his him on the 1901 census. He is missing on the 1911. You've all kindly looked for him before.
He is Charles Henry Jones and this is the Take 1 Great Grandparent thread I had for him a number of years back.
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5340&highlight=charles+henry+jones
I just still feel something is off with this man. I have followed the family who fit my nan's stories and they fit perfectly with the information she gave but I just cannot feel 100% sure.
kiterunner
17-01-16, 16:14
Do the day and month for his birthday on the 1939 Register match with the birth cert that you have, even though the year doesn't, Claire?
kiterunner
17-01-16, 16:17
Sorry, and the actual question you were asking about the marriage cert - I have come across father's name being left blank (for someone whose birth was legitimate) on certificates from the very early days of civil registration when the vicars maybe weren't sure of the rules, but I don't think I have seen one like that as late as 1917. But if he said he didn't know who his father was, for whatever reason, I suppose they would go with what he said.
BlueSavannah
17-01-16, 16:26
My nan always said her father's birthday was the 2nd December and the birth certificate I have gives a date of birth of the 2nd December 1891. However, on the 1939 Register, he's given 1st December 1894.
He claimed to be 22 when he married 17th December 1917.
BlueSavannah
17-01-16, 16:30
My nan was only 15 when her father died so all her vague memories are from when she was a child/teenager.
William Jones who I think is Charles' father actually died on the 16th September 1895 so wasn't able at all to say if he thought Charles' future wife was beneath him or not. Now if Charles was indeed William and his wife Mary's last born child, then their first child was born in 1866 so it wouldn't be like Charles had no idea who his father was, he would have had plenty of adult siblings by the time of William's death to tell him who his father was.
I would have thought the date matching (but not the year) was a good indication you have the right cert.
There could be lots of reasons for lying about your age. My gran knocked off four years because she had a bit secret to hide.
There could be lots of reasons for not putting your father on the marriage cert. OH's grandfather spun a massive long story about why he wasn't putting his father on his marriage cert (because he had been disowned) but the story was exactly that - a story!
Did Charles have a good reason for not appearing in 1911? (I've not read your linked thread yet!)
Do you have Mary Buxton/Jones (whatever!) in 1911?
BlueSavannah
17-01-16, 16:58
Thanks Merry :)
When I received the birth cert that I took a punt on for a guy with the same name but born 4/5 years earlier than he claimed to have, and the birth date matched what my nan said, I did believe I had got the right one. Its just that there is something about this guy that I feel doesn't add up. I don't know what his story actually is, just that the one he told, wasn't true.
I have no idea why he doesn't seem to appear on the 1911 census. I can only assume he is extremely badly transcribed or he he wasn't listed wherever he was. The woman who I believe is his mother, Mary Jones nee Buxton, is living at the address Charles gives as his on his 1917 marriage. She and her granddaughter are lodging there. She also dies there in 1922.
The address is 172 Cuthbert Bank Road.
How come he doesn't appear for me on the 1939 register? I was just looking to see how many Jones's were born 2nd Dec!
BlueSavannah
17-01-16, 17:17
He gave his date of birth as 1st December 1894 on the 1939 Register. He is with wife Harriet at 59 Clematis Road in Sheffield. Everyone else there is closed. They are all their children.
1st December
lol!!
Have you tried to work out what happened to the person you have the birth cert for if he isn't your relation?
BlueSavannah
17-01-16, 17:51
I have and I haven't been able to locate any other Charles Henry Jones that would match him so I can only assume that he is actually my Charles and he shaved 4/5 years off his age. I don't know though whether he's done that when he met Harriet or he had done this before her. His life before her is very sketch in information :(
Him giving 1st December rather than 2nd December on the 1939 register is what has set all my niggling doubts off again.
The woman who I believe is his mother, Mary Jones nee Buxton, is living at the address Charles gives as his on his 1917 marriage.
So, surely if you still think you have the wrong birth cert for your Charles but you know you have the correct marriage cert, this is a massive coincidence?
BlueSavannah
17-01-16, 18:00
I know that everything I have for Charles so far does point to it all being correct but it was the lack of naming his father on his marriage cert that is leaving me with a little niggling doubt to whether he was who he said he was. I was curious to know if others had ancestors relatively recent as the early 1900s who also left their father's off their marriage document when they were legitimately born. His story to his children about his lack of family makes no sense at all and I often wonder why he had no relationship with his family when he appears to have quite a few siblings.
My great grandparents married in 1924. Great Grandad's father has the wrong name on the marriage certificate, so mistakes can happen and the name on the certificate is that of great Grandad's brother.
There hadn't been any family feuds or fallings out as my grandad knew his grandad, as did his cousin (98 years young!). Also have lots of other documents such as photos and letters to prove the marriage certificate was wrong.
BlueSavannah
17-01-16, 18:55
Thank you Tom for sharing. I think I will just take it as though I have found his family that he never spoke of. I wish I could fill in some gaps of his early years though. He told some tale about going to a fancy boys school which I don't believe either.
OH's granddad (the one who didn't put his dad on the cert) said the same about his education. Turned out he was in various institutions from the age of 4, but none of them were posh! He also said he went to university and dropped out, but his formal education finished when he was 12 or 13.
BlueSavannah
17-01-16, 19:16
That's really interesting Merry because I have a gut feeling that my Charles had a similar childhood. I've often wondered if he was in some kind of institution on the 1911 census and he's under just initials. If he was using his correct age in 1911, he should be aged 19 somewhere.
Olde Crone
17-01-16, 20:50
Suggests to me he was either trying to hide a murky past, or he had told too many lies to his intended, so couldn't let her meet any of his family!
Many years ago I was quite friendly with a woman I worked with. She married for the second time and I went to her wedding and indeed, stayed with her sister. T (my friend) had told me her mother was dead and the tragic circumstances in which she had died, so I was VERY surprised when her sister said "Are you going round to see Mum, T?".
T later told me this was just some friend of the family that they all called mum........our friendship petered out after that!
OC
Margaret in Burton
17-01-16, 22:22
On my parents marriage cert my mothers fathers name is blank She was legitimately born. Her father died when she was 11. All I can think of when asked for fathers name she said 'I don't have one'.
Mum died 29 years ago and dad can't remember what she said at the time.
BlueSavannah
18-01-16, 06:45
Oh my goodness OC, that's really awful that someone could not only say their mother had passed away but make up a tragic story as well. I can never understand how people that do this think that they will never get caught out.
I think you are right though regarding Charles Jones. I think he's told a few grand tales about his family and they were nothing more than a working class family from the Neepsend area of Sheffield. He told my gran that the family owned schools in Wales! The nearest I've come is Charles' grandfather was a school master for about 20 years and worked near Wales village in South Yorkshire :d:D
His father William apparently also owned a shop on Wood Street in Sheffield. I've searched and searched and found no such existence.
Margaret, that's very interesting. Maybe that's exactly what happened to Charles too, that he said something similar. One of the siblings my nan remembered, I found her marriage entry and she named her father as Henry Jones rather than William Jones.
If you knock off a few years like my gran did, it saves having to explain what was going on in your life at any given point for that length of time before you begin the lie!
My gran also disowned her own mother, saying she had died when gran was a young child and that she then had a step mother. The 'step-mother' was actually her biological mother and the mother of gran's siblings too (gran said the step-mum was their step mum too). Apparently there was always great strain in the house when gran's siblings and their children visited and for years mum didn't know why and any family conversation would be supressed by gran. Gran managed to keep her story going until she was in her early 60s (actually late 60s!) when mum had to get gran's birth cert. Even then the lies didn't come out as mum just didn't say anything about the wrong year and wrong mother! lol
BlueSavannah
18-01-16, 08:17
Wow Merry, I wonder what caused your gran to disown her mother and concoct such a story. Were her siblings still in contact with their mother?
Its suprising isn't it just how often these stories we all get told turn out to be nothing other than elaborate lies. My nan was one of 14 siblings of which 11 all grew up, had children, grandchildren etc and all descendants from Charles have heard the same story and all have the wrong birth year etc for him. I have had a few of them contact me with their stories of Charles Henry Jones. You can imagine how unpopular I am becoming when I have to go "um, erm, well about Charlie....."
Certainly in my mother's family no one ever asked a direct question if they knew what was good for them!
Gran most likely knocked off the four years partly because she was 25 when she married my grandfather, but it sounded so much more romantic to say she married at 21 and she wouldn't have wanted people to think she might have been "on the shelf"! The other reason was probably because she had a bigamous marriage (unbeknown to her until afterwards I think) in WW1 and her love life was pretty complex, so if you could wipe away four years that made things much simpler.
And as for why she disowner her mother - Gran's parents married across a social divide. He was a middle class librarian and confirmed bachelor when he employed a cockney 'widowed' housekeeper with a child (she wasn't a widow - her husband had done a runner!) and a year later they 'had' to get married (my gran being the result). Gran said her 'step-mother' trapped her father by pretending to be a nice woman until she had him up the aisle and then reverted to type - of course this was said to be when my gran was about seven and therefore after she and her two younger siblings were born to the fictitious mother! (Gran wasn't too good at maths, as she never seemed to realise that having knocked off four years she was now younger than her brother and the same age as her younger sister - another thing never questioned by anyone!!!) So, the first reason for gran denying her mother was that gran wanted to marry 'up' and probably felt her mother didn't give the impression she wanted her to. Secondly, mother was admitted to an asylum when her husband died and spent 20 years there until her death. So, now no one needed to see the woman, but you wouldn't want to say your blood relative was in an asylum, so best to stick with the step theory. As far as we know my gran visited her mother once in the 20 years whilst other relatives visited ever week.
Years later mum was discussing the difference between half and step parents with her mother's older half sibling. She was told directly by the older woman that all four children had the same mother. Mum was so brainwashed by this time that she just thought her aunt was confused. Then it was a few years later that mum got her mother's birth cert and the penny dropped but she kept quiet!
Oooh, I seem to have gone on a bit! Sorry :o
My god daughter has done this - deeply upsetting her mother who was married and moral. There was only one bastard in all this.
BlueSavannah
18-01-16, 10:28
Oh Merry, that certainly was a tale she created there. I am really surprised she managed to pull it off that well and for so long. Such confusion though. No need for an apology, I find these stories really interesting. I could read them all day :)
Oh Phoenix, that sounds awful and upsetting :(
I think I can take from all your responses that it is likely he has created grand tales of his parents etc but couldn't back it up so went with the 'they disowned me' story. What is interesting though is that one of the witnesses is a 'Mary Jones' and I would assume this was his mother, although the name is common. I had wondered how Harriet could be in the church wondering how her new husband's mother was there and signing as a witness if she along with her husband (who was actually dead) had disowned him.
We don't know what happened when it came to entering the name of the father on the certificate. I can quite imagine him thinking he shouldn't give his father's details if he was dead if the information was asked for in the wrong way. I agree it's likely the witness was his mother. Did she sign her name on her marriage cert to Mr Jones?
BlueSavannah
18-01-16, 13:40
She didn't unfortunately, she gave her mark on the marriage cert. William Jones & Mary Buxton married at St George, Sheffield on the 6th December 1865.
Could the witness be Charles's sister? I see there's a likely match for Mary (Ann) Jones in 1911 as a servant in a household named Proctor in Sheffield.
Mary Ann's baptism transcription says her dob was 21 Jan 1889, but I don't see any likely birth reg until Q2. I was looking to see if I could make a match with the 1939 register, but now I'm wondering if her dob is incorrect for the baptism or if her registration was late?
Curious!
My great-uncle Thomas was able to say his father was a "provisions merchant" on his marriage cert, since Thomas was dead! He was a milk carrier, so Thomas was bigging him up somewhat!
I think it's very odd to leave your father off your cert if you are legitimate, assuming it was done deliberately.
BlueSavannah
18-01-16, 15:41
I agree Merry that the Mary Jones who was the witness could possibly be the sister of Charles rather than his mother. She is Mary A on the 1891 & 1901 census and Mary Ann on her baptism but like you, I've only seen the transcription of the baptism on the Sheffield Indexers site.
I hadn't found Mary Ann on the 1911 census as I was getting too many possibles. Not surprising with the common name. I will take a look at the lady with the Proctor family you mentioned.
Mary Ann was the only one of the siblings I had found for Charles that I hadn't found out what became of her after the 1901 census. If anything is found on her, that would be a bonus :)
BlueSavannah
18-01-16, 15:43
I've been waiting for FMP to upload the Sheffield PRs they've been saying are coming for nearly 2 years now. They've added a very few parishes and some of those are very limited in coverage. I really want/need them to upload St Philips & St Michael & All Angels then I will be able to check the images. I am feeling a need to actually travel to Sheffield and go to the archives again to look through them.
BlueSavannah
18-01-16, 15:46
Lol Nell, yes I think he was bigging up his father a little there :)
I think that my Charles has bigged up his whole existance and that of his family to Harriet and she's not questioned any of it. My nan said he had very little to practically no contact with his family so he managed to get away with the stories he told. He kept up his lie about his age too up to his death in 1941. Harriet registered his death with the age she thought he was...46 (when he was actually 49).
I think most of the Mary's I looked at had the wrong middle initial. This was the one I wondered about:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_27710_0185_03/37269684?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911england%26so%3d2%26pcat%3 dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dmary%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3djones%26gsln_x%3 d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1889%26msbdy_x%3d1 %26msbdp%3d2%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3dsheffield %26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d 11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Not that it helps with what happened next!
In 1939 there were only three Mary's with 21 Jan 1889 as their birthdays and living in West Yorks. I couldn't make any of them nee Jones, though I didn't investigate the possibility of more than one marriage, mainly because I realised the dob may well be wrong!
BlueSavannah
18-01-16, 16:05
I think that Mary you've found has to be the right one. I've just looked on Google maps where Burnaby Street is and its about 2 streets away from Cuthbert Bank Road which is where mother Mary Jones was living in 1917 and where Charles claimed to be living on his 1917 marriage.
There is a good chance the date of birth on the transcript is wrong. I need to try and get to Sheffield and check the original. Not that necessarily means 21st January is still not incorrect.
There is a marriage in Ecclesall Bierlow (which covers Cuthbert Bank Road) in 1916 of a Mary A Jones to an Albert Sayles. Its a possible for her.
But then she wouldn't be Jones in 1917! I guess her mother might have practiced her signature in the intervening years. I suppose the witness might be a different relation - sister in law perhaps? Or another totally unconnected Jones :(
BlueSavannah
18-01-16, 17:47
Agreed that if the 1916 marriage is Mary Ann, then the Mary Jones who was the witness wasn't his sister. Its either his mother or someone unrelated. There is only one male sibling to Charles, Arthur and he married an Elizabeth.
But then she wouldn't be Jones in 1917! I guess her mother might have practiced her signature in the intervening years. I suppose the witness might be a different relation - sister in law perhaps? Or another totally unconnected Jones :(
My great grandfather couldn't write at his marriage in 1911 so signed with an x.
At his daughters wedding in 1935, he did sign and I've seen the original Church register. His writing is almost identical to my great grandmother's. She obviously taught him to write.
Olde Crone
18-01-16, 19:23
I wouldn't always assume that "making your mark" is a sign of illiteracy. The only thing you can assume is that they were told to make their mark!
OC
I wouldn't always assume that "making your mark" is a sign of illiteracy. The only thing you can assume is that they were told to make their mark!
OC
Agreed, but in my Great Grandfather's case, I think it was that he couldn't write. Everyone else could, and did sign the register. My Grandmother said he definitely could read and write in later life as he used to enjoy reading the newspaper.
tenterfieldjulie
19-01-16, 10:53
I think if everyone on the forum wrote why they know for a fact that information on baptisms/marriages/deaths/census is wrong .. we would probably never believe that anything is ever correct!!! Years ago I read that if you get information from three different sources and it agrees .. then you have a fair chance that it is right .. but then that is the cynic in me.. People make genuine mistakes when writing down information .. sometimes they guess .. sometimes they want something hidden .. sometimes handwriting is terrible and sometimes people are illiterate .. really it is a wonder that we can track our families .. but then if it was easy .. would we really find it so interesting!!!
BlueSavannah
19-01-16, 12:33
I completely agree with all of that Julie :)
One of my major obstacles with Charles is that he would never name his parents to his children. My research has been through trying to locate the three siblings that he did vaguely mention (who my nan only met one of them once).
I could only find one Jones family in Sheffield that had three children with names that matched the siblings names and the father, William, was a painter which Charles said his father was to his children. Although he bigged up how well do to William and his painting empire actually was.
So,
He has the right name
He has the right siblings
He has the right date and month of birth (wrong year)
He married from the property his mother was living in five years before and five years after, so presumably she lived there in 1917 also.
TBH I don't know why you are doubting it's him???
Perhaps he knew William Jones wasn't his biological father?
BlueSavannah
19-01-16, 15:43
So,
TBH I don't know why you are doubting it's him???
I think I just wanted other peoples opinions on his lack of naming a father. I was just very aware that it usually meant illegitimacy and wanted to know if others had anything similar in their tree. I felt aware that there might be people that said well he didn't name a father, how can you know you have found the right family for him.
The birth certificate I have for Charles does name William Jones, Painter as his father so I can only assume he was indeed his father, but, Charles is the only child of William & Mary Jones who I have not yet found a baptism for.
I think it was quite common for people to get lax with baptising their children by the time they got to the end of their family! And if you had found a baptism surely it would only reinforce the fact that William Jones was presumed to be the father, as was the case according to the birth cert.
However, who knows if he really was Charles's father? But if he wasn't it seems odd that this should come to light and that Charles would follow through by giving the appearance of illegitimacy at his own marriage when most people would be covering it up by writing their mother's husband in the box whether he was the bio father or not! Particularly in this case when William was not around to cause any trouble.
I still think you have the right person though.
Olde Crone
19-01-16, 18:25
I too think it would be odd NOT to name a father and thus appear illegitimate. However, I can think of two examples where a father wasn't named.
One was where the woman was marrying across a religious divide, even though she was of age. The other was where the father was a disgusting rotter and I assume the son's attitude was "I have no father."
In your case, I think he had either told too many lies about his background, or he was bearing some old grudge against his family.
OC
Having read all this I think you have the right man.
He could very well have had a problem with authority and didn't like to give (any/correct) details.
His wife may have just carried on the lie when he died, knowing the truth, but it was easier to stick to the story and not to explain why there were lies.
I can't remember any cases off the top of my head but I have marriage certs where the wrong name was given for the father, no idea why, certificates were signed with an x, when other information shows they knew how to write and a family where about half of the children are illegitimate. I'm sure the husband is the father of all but maybe the first, they all took his name. Still can't work out why they didn't marry earlier, there was no known barrier.
I think with this hobby of ours we need to remember - there's nowt so queer as folk.
BlueSavannah
22-01-16, 11:31
Many thanks again to everyone for your help, advice, opinions :)
He most likely was the biological son of William Jones. His birth cert certainly states that and I've got nothing to suggest otherwise. It was always more the lack of naming him, or anyone, in the father's box at his marriage. Knowing how many other lies he did tell his children, I will go with the general opinion that he has likely told far too many grand tales that he couldn't back up :)
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