View Full Version : Help with dating images
Please could I have some opinions on these two images ? I'd like to know if you think they could be of the same person and an approximate date based on the clothing. They are copies, so I don't know their original formats (which I realise could have helped date the photograph). Apologies if you've seen me ask this elsewhere - I'm casting my net wide.
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/bluerickm/william_drawing_small.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/bluerickm/media/william_drawing_small.jpg.html)
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/bluerickm/william_photo_small.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/bluerickm/media/william_photo_small.jpg.html)
Thanks, Rick.
Olde Crone
23-09-14, 20:55
I'm sure we've discussed wing-tip collars on here before, lol.
The collar is a Gladstone (wing tip worn with an ascot acarf). Gladstone 1809-1898 of course, but I don't suppose everyone immediately threw away their Gladstone collars when Gladstone died. (Wing tip collars originally worn by barristers in England).
The drawing - which isn't very good IMHO - could be the same man or a close relative, but the mouth is wrong. That may just be a lack of drawing skill though.
To make a wild, wild guess at the date of the photo........some time after the 1880s!
OC
If the photo has been correctly labelled, then he was indeed a solicitor.
Olde Crone
23-09-14, 21:19
I'm worried about the sleeve style, puffed at the shoulder. I really cannot date that. It seems to be more Regency style than Victorian.
Clean shaven dates to late 1880s at the earliest. Before that, the fashion was for beards and mustaches and sideburns - lots of facial hair.
OC
Reminds me strongly of Schubert. Perhaps it's the glasses!
I feel the photo is earlier - maybe 1850/60s. It looks like an ambrotype as the image is in reverse (see the buttons and buttonholes on the waistcoat).
His clothing style and hair looks similar to the man at the back left in first photo on this page:
http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/gallery.php
I'm no expert though!! :D
I think there's a good chance the pictures are the same man.
EDIT: I think if you did some research you might find something about the way the sleeves are set into the coat - almost puffed - not very masculine and so possibly not fashionable for too long??? Might help with more accurate dating.
Thanks - keep the opinions coming please !! I have more information, including my thoughts on the clothes (puffy sleeves, high collar, style of cravat), but I don't want to influence things at this stage. I've been looking up the history of photography (thanks google) and daguerrotypes were also mirror images
Olde Crone
23-09-14, 21:37
I can't find much about men's puffed sleeves (except for a rather odd site!). I think Merry may be right and the photo is earlier than the 1880s.
OC
Sorry Rick, I missed your post about the puffed sleeves!
I can't find much about men's puffed sleeves (except for a rather odd site!). I think Merry may be right and the photo is earlier than the 1880s.
OC
The mind boggles !!
Sorry Rick, I missed your post about the puffed sleeves!
You got there first Merry. Thinks I should add another (possibly related) image, but not one from OC's googled sites :D
This is for comparison with the style of dress in the drawing and for any family resemblance.....
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/bluerickm/Henry.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/bluerickm/media/Henry.jpg.html)
Olde Crone
23-09-14, 22:29
Well, that's definitely early - 1830s maybe? There is a similar-looking image of Gladstone as a young man, 1830s/early40s.
Could be the same man as the drawing - the mouth is right this time. I would say all three are the same man, or certainly closely related - that standy-up hair, for one thing.
OC
Well, that's definitely early - 1830s maybe? There is a similar-looking image of Gladstone as a young man, 1830s/early40s.
Could be the same man as the drawing - the mouth is right this time. I would say all three are the same man, or certainly closely related - that standy-up hair, for one thing.
OC
I'm looking at this and the drawing and seeing identical clothing and of course "standy-up" hair :d
I find t much eas8er to say the first drawing and the photo are the same man despite the mouth differences, then the second painting and the other two. They all have the same nose and the two drawings have the same mouth but the angle of the eyebrows in the painting is different, but maybe the artist used some licence? I would be very happy if they were brothers or other close relationship. I agree with OC about the date of the painting - 1830s or a bit before.
I am quite bothered that the photographed man's tailor apparently didn't properly measure the length of his arms! Was it a fashion thing to cut the sleeves rather long - in all other respects he looks rather dapper (and also looks like he thinks that too!).
Could the photo be dated - or date range determined - if his specs can be dated? The College of Optometrists has a museum devoted to spectacles and other sight-correcting devices. Poss contact them to ask for their view.
http://www.college-optometrists.org/en/college/museyeum/online_exhibitions/spectacles/nineteen.cfm
If he was a solicitor, there were - and still are - strict rules on court dress.
The man in your photo is wearing a double breasted coat.
In all other respects the drawing entitled "1830-1850s Frock Coat" about half way down the following page looks a good match:
http://www.neheleniapatterns.com/english/romanticgents.html
It has the puffed sleeve, wide and long lapels and is not a cut-away coat.
Pity he has his arm covering the area where there should be the seam between the jacket and "skirt" of the coat!
I note he is wearing breeches (no fly) but don't now when the style changed. (no time to look now)
EDIT I see breeches did have a front fly if you followed French fashion (ie not many wore that style in England!). Plus there is no clear cut date for a change over to front fly. All I can say is that I have a lot of Victorian photos, many from the 1860s ad 1870s and all those where I can see the trouser fastenings have a central fly, further suggesting this photo is earlier. I do have some 1850s photos but none of the men are displaying this region of their bodies!!!!
If he was a solicitor, there were - and still are - strict rules on court dress.
Interesting.
Very good idea about the specs.
Olde Crone
24-09-14, 08:24
I wondered about the specs and then decided that there wouldn't have been noticeable fashion in specs for men back then! All I could see is that they were not pince-nez but proper specs.
OC
This is for comparison with the style of dress in the drawing and for any family resemblance.....
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/bluerickm/Henry.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/bluerickm/media/Henry.jpg.html)
That's an M notch on the lapels - should help dating.
Janet in Yorkshire
24-09-14, 08:33
I can see similarities (costume and styling) with James Munroe US president (1817–1825).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe
Jay
Can I offer my two'penneth here & say that although they may well be related, I don't think the three images are all of the same man.
If image three is accurate, the ear shape is different from that in image two - or so it seems to my relatively inexperienced eye.
Can I offer my two'penneth here & say that although they may well be related, I don't think the three images are all of the same man.
If image three is accurate, the ear shape is different from that in image two - or so it seems to my relatively inexperienced eye.
Interesting. Mind you, we are comparing a stylised portrait with a photo - and ears change shape as we age...along with many other bits and bobs. ;(
Interesting. Mind you, we are comparing a stylised portrait with a photo - and ears change shape as we age...along with many other bits and bobs. ;(
That's what I thought re photo v portrait, Shona - but I remember seeing a
criminologist explaining that ears were the most telling feature &
responsible for identifying many who had thought facial surgery would keep
them beyond the law.
I must say, it's stood me in good stead - not in evading justice I hasten to
add,but in matters of research.
I find t much eas8er to say the first drawing and the photo are the same man despite the mouth differences, then the second painting and the other two. They all have the same nose and the two drawings have the same mouth but the angle of the eyebrows in the painting is different, but maybe the artist used some licence? I would be very happy if they were brothers or other close relationship. I agree with OC about the date of the painting - 1830s or a bit before.
I am quite bothered that the photographed man's tailor apparently didn't properly measure the length of his arms! Was it a fashion thing to cut the sleeves rather long - in all other respects he looks rather dapper (and also looks like he thinks that too!).
The drawing and the photograph are supposedly the same man, William, my GGGG grandfather. William's three younger brothers and his only son, George William, emigrated to America. One of GW's descendants wrote an account of the family history in about 1970, based on stories told to him by his grandfather, GW's son. The account and the labelling of drawing and photo are very confusing and have caused me to question if they are correctly identified.
The painting is definitively William's brother, Henry, some 8 years his junior, and I know exactly when it was painted.
Here is GW for comparison...
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/bluerickm/GeorgeWilliam.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/bluerickm/media/GeorgeWilliam.jpg.html)
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa80/bluerickm/GeorgeWilliam2.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/bluerickm/media/GeorgeWilliam2.jpg.html)
Thanks for all of your comments. I did originally think they dated from the 1860s, but now believe them to be earlier. The insights into clothing and spectacles are very helpful.
I can't personally see much difference in the specs he is wearing from that of GW's (both young and old).
The coat and shirt collar/cravat style in the drawing looks Regency to me, whereas that in the photograph appears later - early Victorian. If so, I'm thinking the drawing pre-dates the advent of photography and the photograph would have to be an extremely early one.
Update:
I had the photo dated by a professional and here are the headline points...
The image is taken from a daguerreotype. The first commercial studios producing this type of photograph opened in 1841, but it is rare for early examples to come up in family collections with most dating from the late 1840s or 1850s.
Fashion evidence is however compelling. The puffy sleeves and white cravat were popular in the 1830s and had become outmoded by the later 1840s.
The photo therefore dates from 1841 to 1845, which means that it is almost certainly correctly labelled as my 4th great grandfather, William Carvill, who died in 1844. I'm over the moon :)
Olde Crone
24-04-15, 19:17
LOL Rick. Remind me never to comment on photos again!
(Um, my relatives wore clothes that were hopelessly outmoded and often fifty years old, but perhaps that was just my family?)
OC
LOL Rick. Remind me never to comment on photos again!
(Um, my relatives wore clothes that were hopelessly outmoded and often fifty years old, but perhaps that was just my family?)
OC
:d:d:d To be fair, I did tell the distant cousin who sent it to me that I seriously doubted it could be that early. She was adamant is was him.
The person who dated the photo (Jayne Shrimpton, who provided an excellent service at a very reasonable rate) said she had never seen such an early example and that is was very rare indeed. I'm hoping we can locate the original somewhere in my cousin's family in the US.
The accurate date, together with the family resemblances indicate that the photo is correctly labelled. That also increases the chances that the drawing is also him, probably dating to about 1825 when the painting of his brother was done. The painting is at least labelled on the back with name and date. All in all a very satisfying piece of research.
Congratulations Rick, I can imagine you walking around grinning like a Cheshire cat now you have sorted that query out.....:d:d
I remember feeling just the same when I finally discovered who was in an old photo that my aunt had passed on to me telling me only which family line it came from, but nothing more.
Congratulations Rick, I can imagine you walking around grinning like a Cheshire cat now you have sorted that query out.....:d:d
I remember feeling just the same when I finally discovered who was in an old photo that my aunt had passed on to me telling me only which family line it came from, but nothing more.
Thanks Val and yes it has made me very happy. I now have quite a collection of paintings, drawings and photographs of this part of my family, dating from 1825 to the 1870s on both sides of the Atlantic, plus a series of letters spanning the 30s to the 60s.
It really helps to understand their lives better and is a good advert for full descendancy research. I wouldn't even know half of it existed if I hadn't reached out to some very distant cousins.
Olde Crone
25-04-15, 20:16
*Going off topic*
Yes, I would still be in the dark about many things if I had not had contact with a third cousin, whose mother was a fanatical hoarder of family memorabilia....including a photo taken in 1856 of our mutual 2 x GGM!
OC
*Going off topic*
Yes, I would still be in the dark about many things if I had not had contact with a third cousin, whose mother was a fanatical hoarder of family memorabilia....including a photo taken in 1856 of our mutual 2 x GGM!
OC
My absolute favourite, even better than this photograph for me, is an image my cousin sent of a miniature portrait of my GGG grandmother, William's daughter, Eliza.
She married a solicitor and one of their children became an accomplished oil painter who exhibited at the RA. Imagine my surprise when I started reading the letters (which came from a different source), and no less than three of them to Eliza from her brother in the US mentioned how talented her solicitor fiancée was to have painted that very portrait. Clearly his talent rubbed off on their son.
Olde Crone
25-04-15, 21:24
LOL Rick, my late father was a very competent draughtsman, as was his brother. Their mother (my grandmother) was a professional artist before she married (and what is a professional artist, pray??) so it is no surprise that two of my three daughters are also accomplished artists. (Missed me, I can't draw a straight line).
So - I was very highly amused to discover that granma's ancestors were all housepainters and signwriters!
OC
Ha - the oil painter's son was a house painter. I'm no good at either though :o
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