Blasted Bodycotes yet again!

[Anstey Nomad]

For years, I have been trying to figure out the relationships between the various members of Joseph Bodycote’s household in Denman Street Leicester in 1851:

Joseph Bodycote aged 54, stocking knitter, born Leicester St Leonard, is the head of the household. He is my mysterious 4 x great grandfather. No birth, no death and precious little in between!

Amelia Chapman aged 24, also a stocking knitter, born Mansfield Notts, is his daughter, and William Chapman aged 26, stocking knitter, born Leicester St Margaret is his son in law. They were married in Leicester in the June Quarter of 1847.

The other members of the household are:

Charlotte Noon aged 40, also born Leicester St Margarets and described as a niece
Joseph Noon aged 21, born Newtown Linford, described as a nephew
John Sibson aged 46 and Richard Sibson aged 22, both born Leicester St Margarets, and Lucy Sibson aged 16, born Mansfield Notts all described as visitors

I had a thread running on another forum and, basically, in three years we have totally failed to answer the original question, but we do now have this marriage entry:

St: Margaret’s Parish Church.
Entry No.115, MAY 19, 1851, after Banns
Joseph Noon Bodycote, 22, Bachelor. Fwk, Of Denman St,
Son. of JOSEPH BODYCOTE, FWK

Harriet Carter, 20, Spinster Of Russell St,
Daughter. Of William Carter, Fwk
Wits: Joseph Bodycote, Elizabeth Carter.

It would appear that Joseph Noon, nephew, may actually be Joseph Noon Bodycote, son. That raises all sorts of questions.

The Leicester Chronicle: or, Commercial and Agricultural Advertiser (Leicester, England), Saturday, May 09, 1829

Joseph Bodycote was brought up for leaving his wife and family chargeable to St Leonard's parish. It appeared that the defendant had offended four different times in this respect, and had cost the parish about twenty pounds. He brought his wife from the East Indies, and has since been cohabitating with another woman, who had one child, and is again pregnant by him. The prisoner was sentenced to hard labour for three months.

Could Joseph Noon be the child in utero at the time Joseph was sentenced?

Presumably, on that basis, the older child of the outside relationship was Amelia, born in 1827 in Mansfield. However, Amelia’s baptism record says her mother was Elizabeth, either Joseph’s wife of that name, or another Elizabeth.

And I can’t find a baptism for Joseph Noon or Joseph Bodycote at the right sort of time.

I do however, have this entry from FamilySearch, which could well be our Charlotte:

Gender: Female
Christening Date: 01 Jan 1811
Christening Place: St Margaret, Leicester, Leicester, England
Birth Date: 30 Dec 1810
Father's Name: Jno. Noon
Mother's Name: Maria

And this, which may complete the circle as far as the visitors are concerned:

Name: John Noon
Spouse's Name: Maria Sibson
Event Date: 18 Aug 1806
Event Place: Saint Margaret, Leicester, Leicester, England

So, I think it is safe to assume some relationship between the various people in this house. It looks as if Charlotte and Joseph junior are related to the three Sibsons, but whether any of them are in any way related to Joseph and Amelia is another question entirely.

There are no clues in 1841. Round the corner in Eaton Street, we find:

Joseph Bodycote 35 FWK Yes
Joseph Bodycote 10 FWK Yes Is this Joseph Noon Bodycote?
Mary Bodycote 20 FWK Yes
Emily Bodycote 12 FWK Yes I think this is probably Amelia
Ann Bodycote 1m Yes But who is is her mother?
Ann Simson 40 FWK Yes
Charlott Noon 25 FWK Yes

Then it gets more complicated because someone found this:

Philadelphia Passenger Lists, 1800-1945 about Charlotte Bodycott
Name: Charlotte Bodycott 45
Arrival Date: 13 Nov 1855
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Tonawanda
Port of Arrival: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Last Residence: England
Microfilm Roll Number: M425_78

With Joseph age 46 FWK. Now my Joseph was about 61 by his time, but to be honest, I wouldn’t put it past him to lie about his age.

I’m told there is a Charlotte 1861 in Pennsylvania with a younger Joseph Bodycot. I’ve not found that yet, but there is a viewable Joseph Bodycot death certificate on the IGI birth c1830 death 20 May 1904, which would fit for Joseph Noon. However, he could be the same Joseph Bodycote as appears in the 1900 Census for Philadelphia, who apparently emigrated in 1846 and married in the US. As for the relationships between these guys and the other Bodycotes in Philadelphia, I'm not even going to go there (unless I have to).

I'm going to lie down in a darkened room. Would anyone else like to have a go while I'm gone?

[kiterunner]

There is this old thread which looks worth reading through again:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=16343&highlight=noon

Also this one:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=14373&highlight=noon

I'll just have a look through those then get back to this one...

[Anstey Nomad]

I've had a look at the two previous threads (sorry, I didn't realise there were two).

I can see that we have come to the conclusion that John Sibson is probably Charlotte Noon’s half brother and Richard and Lucy are his children, which explains the relationship there.

On the second thread there seems to be lots of speculation, but no firm conclusions reached, so I am still left with the basic questions.

[kiterunner]

This is Charlotte and Joseph on the 1860 US census, mistranscribed as Badycot on ancestry:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7667/4293541_00009/4784136?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3d1860usfedcenan cestry%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26 msT%3d1%26gss%3dms_db%26gsfn%3dcharl*t*%26gsfn_x%3 dXO%26gsln%3dbad*c*t*%26gsln_x%3dXO%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[kiterunner]

And this is the Joseph who married Rebecca, on the 1880 US census:
1880 US census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6742/4240483-00435/21054167?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3d1880usfedcen%2 6rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dms _r_db%26gsfn%3djos*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dbod*c*t *%26gsln_x%3dXO%26dbOnly%3d_83004005%257c_83004005 _x%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%26dbOnly%3 d_F000686E%257c_F000686E_x%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=4240483-00435)
Kaskaskia, Fayette, Illinois
Bodycote Joseph 51 Husband Farmer England
Rebeckah 41 Wife Keeping House born Illinois
Edward 7 son born Illinois
Benjamin 5 son born Illinois
George 3 son born Illinois.

His age fits with Joseph Noon Bodycote now, although he was only 22 on the 1860 census (if this is the same person.)

Also there is this family at Avon, Rock, Wisconsin, in 1880:
Bodycoat William 25 Farmer born Wisconsin
Charlotte 66 Mother Keeping House born England
Ida 22 Sister Teaching School born Wisconsin
1880 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6742/4244772-00011/28973673?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3d1880usfedcen%2 6rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dms _r_db%26gsfn%3djos*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dbod*c*t *%26gsln_x%3dXO%26dbOnly%3d_83004005%257c_83004005 _x%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%26dbOnly%3 d_F000686E%257c_F000686E_x%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=4244772-00011)
But this must be a different Charlotte, mustn't it? Because William and Ida weren't with the Charlotte we were looking at in 1860.

[kiterunner]

Yes, this is the other Charlotte in 1860 with William and Ida among her children, and her husband is Thomas:
1860 US census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7667/4300456_00021/36408846?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1860usfedcenancestry%26so%3d2 %26pcat%3d35%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%2 6MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3dida%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dbod*c*t*%26g sln_x%3dXO%26cpxt%3d0%26uidh%3dvm5%26cp%3d12&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

[Anstey Nomad]

Just had a look at this. It sounds credible and the ages are good.

However, what about Joseph Bodycote who appears in the 1900 Census for Philadelphia, who apparently emigrated in 1846 and married in the US? I had formed the impression he was the one who was born in 1829 and died in 1904.

Not content with being unable to sort out the Bodycotes in Leicester, do we have parallel people in PA?

[kiterunner]

And on the 1900 US census Joseph Bodycote (the one married to Rebecca with daughter Charlotte) says he was born in Jun 1829 which would fit very well with that newspaper report. He does say he immigrated to the US in 1846, but the year of immigration on the census is often inaccurate, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.
1900 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7602/004115216_00181/42100715?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1900usfedcen%26so%3d2%26pcat% 3d35%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d 2%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3djos*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3db*d*co*t*%2 6gsln_x%3dXO%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh% 3dvm5%26cp%3d12&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Also he says he is naturalised, so there might be some naturalisation papers to find. He is still in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1900, so I would guess naturalised there.
(Sorry, was typing this while you were typing yours, Sheila! )

[Anstey Nomad]

So, on the face of it, it looks as if Charlotte Noon and Joseph Noon Bodycote emigrated to the US together in 1855 and he ended up being a farmer (odd profession for a townie).

I can't find a death for Harriet, but dead or alive he seems to have gone without her then.

But what is the relationship between Charlotte Noon and Joseph Noon Bodycote? I had sort of assumed she was his mother. Now I am even more confused.

Is it me?

[kiterunner]

Sorry, got to go and eat now, will look some more later.

[Anstey Nomad]

Hmm - Joseph Bodycote on the 1900 census gives his occupation appears to give his occupation as unemployed pedlar. Does this mean the farming was a short-lived diversion?

Off to find out about naturalisation papers.

[Shona]

While some have been touring the USA, I headed off to India - or FMP's recently added India Office records. You may have these, but it must be the same Joseph, the framework knitter in Leicester.

Joseph Bodycott, a private, married Elizabeth Beckwith, spinster of Fort William, at St John's Cathedral in Calcutta on 1 May 1820.

Joseph and Elizabeth had two children in India that I can find:

Charles, b 12 May 1821 and bpt on 10 June 1821 at Berhampore. Parents, Joseph Bodycote, private in the 17th Regiment of Foot, and Elizabeth.

Amelia Bodycote, bpt 8 Dec 1822 at Fort William. Parents, Joseph Bodycote, a private in the 44th Regiment of Foot, and Elizabeth.

[Anstey Nomad]

Yes Shona. I've got all that. I went to all the trouble of getting a copy of Joseph's marriage record in the hope of finding out who his parents were. No chance! That's another ongoing unresolved issue.

I am descended from Charles. We think that this Amelia died, hence the second Amelia (b 1827).

I've got Elizabeth Beckwith all the way through as well, but have not yet gone backwards.

One step at a time.

[kiterunner]

There is a Joseph Bodycote buried 7 Jan 1857 in Philadelphia but this burial record doesn't have any further information such as age etc:
Pennsylvania Church and Town Records on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2451/40524_277053-00097/16247838?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dpachurchtownrecords%26so%3d2% 26pcat%3d34%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26 MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3djos*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3db*d*co*t*%2 6gsln_x%3dXO%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh% 3dvm5%26cp%3d12&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

[kiterunner]

Here are Joseph (the one born 1829) and Rebecca on the 1870 US census:

1870 US census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7163/4262973_00134/15714617?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3d1870usfedcen%2 6rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dreb*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msbd y%3d1839%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbpn__ftp%3dIllinois%252 c%2bUSA%26msbpn%3d16%26msbpn_PInfo%3d5-%257c0%257c1652393%257c0%257c2%257c3247%257c16%257 c0%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c%26msbpn_x%3dXO%26msbpn__ ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp%3dIllinois%252c%2bUSA%26msr pn%3d16%26msrpn_PInfo%3d5-%257c0%257c1652393%257c0%257c2%257c3247%257c16%257 c0%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c%26msrpn_x%3dXO%26msrpn__ ftp_x%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5%26msbdp%3d5%26gl%3d%26gst%3 d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d40%26fsk%3dBEDyVIAIgAAb-43-wAvHBk-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Kaskasia, Fayette, Illinois
Body Cote Jos 39 Farm hand born England
Rebecca 31 Keeping house born Illinois
Ann 7 born Illinois

[kiterunner]

There is a death registration for a Harriet Bodycoat Jan-Mar 1861 Barrow upon Soar, Leicestershire. Too early for age to be shown on the death index. Have you ruled her out, Sheila?

[Anstey Nomad]

There is another Bodycote family over that way. I can't rule it out, but I would imagine she's one of theirs rather than one of mine.

Any road up, that's after Joseph emigrated, but if it is my Joseph's wife and he married Rebecca in 1865, then he isn't a bigamist. Damn - after all this lot have put me through, the least they could do was give me a bigamist!

[kiterunner]

I haven't found anything which actually has details of Joseph and Rebecca's marriage, Sheila, have you? As far as I can see, the public ancestry trees which say they married in 1865 have just got it from the 1900 census which shows number of years married as 35.

[Anstey Nomad]

Not going very far today I suspect. Roads are flooded and all sorts. Will get my head down. Thanks for your help so far.

[kiterunner]

The 1862 Philadelphia City Directory (on ancestry) has an entry for Bodycut Joseph, peddler, Miller bel Wistar (that's the address.) Unfortunately the earliest Philadelphia directory that they have is 1861 and there are no Bodicotes (of whatever spelling) in that one.

[kiterunner]

I've found the 1857 Philadelphia city directory on the Internet Archive and there is an entry for Bodycot Joseph, frame work knitter, Logan & Nicetown, lane. Same in 1858 and 1859. Dinner time! Will look some more later.

[Anstey Nomad]

I've seen and saved the 1857 entry. However, if it's also there in 1858/9, it's presumably not the same man as died in 1857.

I'd kind of got to like the idea that the 1857 death was Joseph senior, who would have been 63 or so by then and that he had emigrated with Joseph junior and Charlotte when times got hard in the FWK trade.

How many Joseph Bodycote's can there be?

[Anstey Nomad]

I've looked in the 1866 - nothing there.

I can't get into worldwide Ancestry at the moment (I was using someone else's login - with their agreement). If I PM you my e mail address can you send me the death entry if there is more to it than what you've said? Thanks.

[kiterunner]

If you're asking about the 1857 burial, Sheila, it just says 1857 Jan 7 Joseph Bodycote Chhyd (presumably abbreviation for Churchyard), C M Parkman (presumably the name of the minister). Most of the entries on the page show age at death but not this one.

[kiterunner]

1863 Philadelphia City Directory - no Bodicotes.
1860 - Bodycote Joseph, peddler, Miller (Gtn).

[kiterunner]

Hmmm, just to add more confusion, the 1884 Philadelphia directory has Bodycote Joseph, peddler, h 17 E N Town 1a. But we thought he was in Illinois then!

[kiterunner]

Oh, okay, looks like the same family because there is this entry in the 1911 Philadelphia directory. Maybe they had property in both places:
Bodycote Rebecca wid Jos h 1841 Brunner.
Sorry, forgot that Joseph and Rebecca were in Philadelphia in 1900 (on the census) too. I suppose they moved back there from Illinois after 1880.

[Anstey Nomad]

I've just been to the Library and looked at the burial entry and also the directories all the way through.

Whether or not (again) it's the same chap, I am not sure, because there are three years (1890-92) when the only address given is 25 Hunting Park Avenue, which sounds a bit posh, and no occupation is given.

I've also turned up a burial at St Margaret's in Leicester in 1833 for a child called Lydia, daughter of Joseph and Charlotte. Blimey! Now I really hope she wasn't actually his niece!

Mary from Italy - do I remember that you have the disks for St Margaret's? Would you be able to have a look at this for me? 8 February 1833 - Lydia Bodycote. Any other info there might be will be helpful.

[kiterunner]

Oh, but of course the fact that he lived in Illinois for a while means he could have been naturalised there rather than in Philadelphia; I didn't think of that before.

[kiterunner]

Erm, hopefully this is not connected with your family in any way because it is way too confusing, but looking for Charlotte Noon(e) in Philadelphia has come up with the following:

Philadelphia Death Certificates:
Charlotte E Heald, died 9 Mar 1912, age 68 years 5 months, born 8 Oct 1843 Leicester, England, widow, father John Noone, mother Sarah Chapman. Informant Charlotte Markle.
Pennsylvania Death Certificates (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5164/41381_620305176_0819-03127/367425?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dPADeathCollection%26h%3d36742 5%26indiv%3dtry%26o_vc%3dRecord%253aOtherRecord%26 rhSource%3d2535&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord)

[kiterunner]

This is Charlotte E Noone on the 1860 US census in Philadelphia but not with relatives, by the look of it:
1860 US census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7667/4293540_00070/4769388?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1860usfedcenancestry%26so%3d2 %26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1% 26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn%3dcharl*t*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dnoon*%2 6gsln_x%3dXO%26gskw%3dphiladelphia%26gskw_x%3d1%26 cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dvm5%26cp%3d12&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

Charlotte Elizabeth Noone married James Heald May 28 1866 in Philadelphia. Witnesses "family and friends".

[Anstey Nomad]

Our Charlotte Noon was born in 1810, and baptised in 1811 without an 'E'. I can't currently see the Census (Library now closed). What does it give for her age?

[Anstey Nomad]

I've just looked at Brunner Street on Streetview. It's a run down inner city neighbourhood now, but I guess it was respectable working class 100 years ago.

[kiterunner]

1880 census entry, Philadelphia:
1880 US census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6742/4244467-00314/37984012?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1880usfedcen%26rank%3d1%26new %3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d1%26pcat%3d35%26gss%3dms_r_ db%26gsfn%3dja*s%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dheald%26gs ln_x%3dXO%26gskw%3dphiladelphia%26dbOnly%3d_830040 05%257c_83004005_x%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004 006_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000686E%257c_F000686E_x%26uidh% 3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Heald Chalotte 36 Keeping House born England
Chalotte 11 Daughter at School born Pena parents born England
James 10 Son at School born Pena parents born England
Rebeca M 5 Daughter born Pena parents born England
Noone John 65 Boarder Manfr Hosiery born England
May A 32 Boarder Works in Woolen Mill born England
Annie J 20 Boarder Works in Woolen Mill born Pena parents born England.


FamilySearch has the baptism of a John Noon 27 Apr 1815 at Newtown Linford, Leics, parents John and Maria, so he looks to be the brother of the elder Charlotte Noon, although this means that Maria had two sons called John as John Sibson was also hers. (And don't forget that Joseph Noon's birthplace on the 1851 census was Newtown Linford, so they are connected with that place.) John Noone married Sarah Ann Chapman 2 Nov 1835 at St Margaret's Leicester.

So was Sarah Chapman related to Amelia's husband? These people are giving me a headache!

[kiterunner]

Our Charlotte Noon was born in 1810, and baptised in 1811 without an 'E'. I can't currently see the Census (Library now closed). What does it give for her age?

Sorry, the Charlotte E Noone on the 1860 census was 16. But she must be the niece of the other Charlotte. I was worried she was going to turn out to be a daughter!

[kiterunner]

John Noone in 1860, in Philadelphia:
1860 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7667/4293540_00076/4769605?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1860usfedcenancestry%26so%3d2 %26pcat%3d35%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%2 6MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3djohn%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dnoon*%26gsl n_x%3dXO%26gskw%3dphiladelphia%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt %3d0%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dvm5%26cp%3d12&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
John Noone 45 Stocking Weaver born Eng
Sarah A " 43 born Eng
Sarah A " 20 born Eng.

[kiterunner]

Here are the Noon family on the New York Passenger Lists:
New York Passenger Lists (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7488/NYM237_123-0423/511722?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dnypl%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_C ATEGORY%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV %3d2%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn%3dsar*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dnoon*%26gsl n_x%3dXO%26msady%3d1855%26msady_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d0%2 6catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dvm5%26msadp%3d5%26cp%3d 12&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
23 Feb 1853 Liverpool to New York on the Waterloo.
John Noon 38 Hosier
Sarah Do 35 Wife
Geo Do 16 Children
Sarah Do 11 "
Charlotte Do 9 "
Margt Ann Do 7 "
No Bodicotes with them.


But I reckon the fact that John Noon emigrated to Philadelphia proves that the Charlotte Bodicote who went there is your Charlotte Noon, do you agree, Sheila?

[Mary from Italy]

Mary from Italy - do I remember that you have the disks for St Margaret's? Would you be able to have a look at this for me? 8 February 1833 - Lydia Bodycote. Any other info there might be will be helpful.

No, sorry, I only have the baptism disc for St Margaret's (1813-1878). I looked for a baptism for Lydia, but didn't find one.

Her burial's in the NBI, but it only gives minimal information:

8 Feb 1833 / Lydia BODYCOTE / age 1 / Leicestershire / Leicester, St Margaret

http://www.ilsos.gov/isavital/marriageSearch.do

However, I did find the Joseph-Rebecca marriage in the Illinois marriage index:

Groom / Bride / Date / Volume / Page / Lic No. / County
BODYCOTE, JOSEPH / WALTON, REBECCA / 1865-02-23 / 00A / 0090 / FAYETTE

http://www.ilsos.gov/isavital/marriagesrch.jsp

[kiterunner]

I don't think FamilySearch has finished indexing the Philadelphia City Death Certificates, and they do have them available to browse, but the files are only identified by "Film Number (Digital Folder Number)" so I don't know where to start looking for Joseph Bodycote's death in there. Maybe I need to go back and look at that burial record on ancestry, and browse through the previous pages to see if it says what churchyard it is referring to and work from there. Will look later.

[kiterunner]

The images on ancestry don't say which churchyard Joseph Bodycote was buried in, but the minister C M Parkman seems to have been minister at Holy Apostles Philadelphia in 1857.
Edit - looking into this further, there doesn't seem to have been an actual Church of the Holy Apostles at that time, so there wouldn't have been a churchyard. The parish name was changed to Church of the Incarnation in 1858 and they started building a chapel then. Charles M Parkman was the rector in 1857. So I'm still confused about what churchyard Joseph was buried in.

I can't find an easy way to navigate the browse files on FamilySearch. :(
It seems that the numbers shown for browsing are not the Film Numbers shown in their catalogue; you have to view the first image or two to get the actual microfilm number to look up. So it could take a long time to look through them all to find the ones covering 1857. But if I understand the info about the database correctly, there might not be an actual death certificate for him because he died before 1860. That burial record might be all that there is.

[Anstey Nomad]

Thanks everyone. Just popped in on my lunchbreak. Will be back later to digest this.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, someone on the ancestry message boards found this for me:

http://userdoc.ancestry.com/userdocstore/download.ashx?fileid=a4cf792f-e423-4d67-9007-9bbfe0ce2cb8&mac=8D1836656AC84000000SlOpu7Lqnus=.boards

Jan 7 1857
newspaper: Public Ledger (Philadelphia, PA)
On the 4th inst, from an accident on the Reading Railroad, Mr JOSEPH BODYCOTE, aged 58.
His relatives and friends are respectfully invited to attend the funeral, from his late residence, Nicetown lane, this (Wednesday) afternoon, at 2 o'clock, without further notice. To proceed to the Church of St James the Less.

And a link to the thread where I asked about the burial:
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/localities.northam.usa.states.pennsylvania.countie s.philadelphia/10178.1.1/mb.ashx


Oh, and note that his age at death fits very well with that 1799 baptism!

[Anstey Nomad]

Ah yes, the 1799 baptism that I have never been sure was my Joseph.

We've been here before:

"That Private Joseph Bodycott born in the parish of St Leonard in or near the town of Leicester in the County of Leicester was enlisted for the aforesaid regiment at Leicester in the County of Leicester on the 19th day of October 1813 at the age of nineteen years for unlimited service"

Except that if the 1799 baptism is to be believed he is actually fourteen and a half!

Name: Joseph Bodicote
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 23 Apr 1799
Christening Place: SAINT LEONARD,LEICESTER,LEICESTER,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 21 Apr 1799
Father's Name: Edwd. Bodicote
Mother's Name: Elizth.

I'm still not entirely happy with this, although I suppose he could have been a drummer boy or something. I don't really know anything about the army.

As for the accident on the railroad, that's really weird. My Uncle Wilf on the other side died as a result of an accident on the railway (he had the sense to stay in Leicester!) What's the odds?

Cracking work though. I still have the stomach churning thing going on which is usually an indication that significant progress is being made.

[kiterunner]

Like I said on the other thread, my ancestor William Seaman seems to have got away with giving his age as 20 on joining the army when he was really 15 3/4. I wonder whether the army were really that bothered as long as they got enough recruits.

[kiterunner]

Okay, looking at the family of Edward Bodicote and Elizabeth (the parents of Joseph born 1799), there are some public trees on ancestry which have Edward Bodycot marrying Elizabeth Tilson 21 Oct 1788 at Leicester. I haven't been able to find anything to confirm this, but if it is right, then there is a baptism for Elizabeth Tilson 5 Feb 1769 at All Saints Leicester, born 30 Jan 1769, parents Joseph and Elizabeth (this is from FamilySearch.)

Remember that Charlotte Noon's mother was Maria Tilson? There is a Maria Tilson baptism 24 Feb 1784 also at All Saints, born 23 Feb 1784, parents Joseph and Dorothy.

So Maria could be Elizabeth's half-sister, which would make Charlotte the half-cousin of Joseph Bodicote. Could be that "niece" was used loosely on the census to mean "younger female relative"; I have seen that done before.

Also I found a tree on the internet showing Elizabeth Tilson's mother as an Elizabeth Noone but have not been able to confirm that either. If that's right, then maybe Charlotte Noon was related to Joseph Bodicote in two different ways!

[Shona]

I wouldn't fret about Joseph's supposed age on enlistment.

Perhaps his age was filled in by the recruiting sergeant - they were paid commission for each boy, lad or man who joined up.

The army were crying out for recruits at the time and 'the king's shilling' was increased to a hefty £23! Joseph could have lied to get the maximum bounty and, as the recruiting sergeant got commission, both would have been happy.

Poor and destitute boys were offloaded by parishes, too. In 1795, three regiments were formed 'to relieve parishes of boys between the ages of 10 and 16...on condition the parishes paid expenses to the recruiting depot'. There were 1,000 boys assigned to each regiment. The number of regiments recruiting boy soldiers increased to seven by December 1797. The practice declined by 1801 with just two regiments taking on large numbers of boys.

Regulations drawn up in 1802 established some standards on the age and height of recruits. However, the standards were lowered or ignored when war with France meant there was an urgent need to bolster army numbers.

The regulations stated:

In the Infantry, Men enlisted...are not to be taken above Twenty-five [Thirty] years of Age, nor less than Five Feet Six [Five] inch high; but growing Lads from Seventeen to Nineteen Years of Age, may be taken as low as Five Feet Five [Four] Inches...The Lads and Boys are to be enlisted as Privates...

The numbers in brackets are the changes made later in the war.

'Growing lads' was a huge loophole exploited to recruit boys under age and under height.

Hostilities with France meant that most regiments gaining a second battalion who were permitted to recruit boys.

The biggest inducement was a cash bounty of £23 17s 6d for lifetime service in 1812 with a smaller bounty for seven years service.

In the early Victorian era, an enlistment age of 13 to 15 was common for rank and file soldiers. Officers started at the age of 17 or 18. During the Napoleonic era, however, it had been common for army officers to take up their commission at age 12 to 15.

The 1876 investigation by the Taylor Committee on Boy Soldiers resulted in the status of boy soldiers being better defined. Boys from the age of fourteen could be enlisted as musicians, drummers, tailors, shoemakers, artificers or clerks.

[Anstey Nomad]

Thanks to everyone who's chipped in on this. More work for me to do now, but at last I have a real starting point.

In summary then:

It looks as if Joseph Bodycote (my errant 4 x great grandfather) emigrated to the USA in 1855, taking with him Charlotte Noon, who may have been a relative, or his fancy woman, or both, and his son, who may have been her son as well, Joseph Noon Bodycote. What happened to Joseph junior's original wife, we don't yet know, but it looks as if he did OK for himself in the States and died as late as 1904. It also looks as if there will be descendants *rubs hands together*

Joseph senior on the other hand seems to have come to a sticky end in 1857, courtesy of the railroad.

If we take the 1799 birth and baptism as read, then this opens a whole other vista for me, where there are already living relatives that I am already in touch with.

I may be some time sorting all this out, but thanks again for all your help.

[Anstey Nomad]

Just tying this up. It seems that everyone who has Joseph Bodycote in their tree believes that he died in Nottingham in 1858, but has not seen the certificate.

I have now sent for the certificate of the Joseph Bodycote who died in Nottingham in 1858.

I am pleased to report that this Joseph Bodycote was three years old, the son of Charles Bodycote FWK. As such, he may prove to be a three times great uncle, but he is clearly not my four times great grandfather.

Philadelphia here we come!

[Phoenix]

Fantastic! (As is the whole Bodycote saga)

[Margaret in Burton]

Just tying this up. It seems that everyone who has Joseph Bodycote in their tree believes that he died in Nottingham in 1858, but has not seen the certificate.

I have now sent for the certificate of the Joseph Bodycote who died in Nottingham in 1858.

I am pleased to report that this Joseph Bodycote was three years old, the son of Charles Bodycote FWK. As such, he may prove to be a three times great uncle, but he is clearly not my four times great grandfather.

Philadelphia here we come!

But, will all of the people who have Joseph in their tree believe you? You may have the cert but it's on the internet sooooo many times it must be right.

You know it'll happen.

[Anstey Nomad]

I shall be scanning and e mailing that certificate.:D

I have already successfully debunked the theory that Joseph was producing children at opposite ends of the earth at the same time, so I think I can deal with this one!

[Guinevere]

Go, Dolly!

[Anstey Nomad]

Well, I really do have to deal with this chap:

"I have not tried to get a certificate for the entry in my Ancestry tree because it is not central to my research and, hence, it could well be false."

Yeah, right

[maggie_4_7]

i shall be scanning and e mailing that certificate.:d

i have already successfully debunked the theory that joseph was producing children at opposite ends of the earth at the same time, so i think i can deal with this one!

:d :d

Well, I really do have to deal with this chap:

"I have not tried to get a certificate for the entry in my Ancestry tree because it is not central to my research and, hence, it could well be false."

Yeah, right

*coughs* hehe I wonder if he'll take any notice of you!

[Anstey Nomad]

"Thank you very much for the copy of the death certificate. I will, of course, let you know if I come up with anything helpful to the Joseph Bodycot problem during my researches."

"I came across a couple of references to Joseph Bodycote today. I am sure you will have seen them, but just in case, here is a summary.

The Leicester Journal of 15 Jun 1855 and the Leicester Mercury of 16 Jun 1855 show Joseph obtaining a loan of £20, subject to enquiry, for 3 years. I have attached a cutting of reasonable resulution from the Journal. The Mercury gives slightly more info, including his address at 67 Denman Street, but the .pdf on my PC is too poor a resolution to copy.

Do you think he was getting some money for his ticket to Philadelphia?!"

Yes, on reflection, I think he probably was!

[Anstey Nomad]

I now have an even better e mail, from Joseph Noon Bodycote's 3 x great grandson in the States.

It doesn't help one iota, but he shows willing and I will concoct a suitable response.

[maggie_4_7]

Maybe he'll filter through the information to the owners of the other trees with the wrong information...

[Anstey Nomad]

He's part of the global Bodycote Group so yes, he might.

[Anstey Nomad]

So, I am now in contact with a three times great grandson of Joseph Noon Bodycote. His tree starts with his Joseph - he knows nothing of what has gone before. I've sent him a long e mail attempting to link his Joseph to mine (God bless him). I think I have blown my correspondent's mind. The first word of the e mail I have received today is "WOW".

However, just to confuse the issue, he has sent me a copy of an advertisement from the Philadelphia Enquirer dated July 15 1863, which goes like this:

"CAUTION I HEREBY NOTIFY ALL MINISTERS and Magistrates not to marry my husband JOSEPH BODYCOTE Germantown PA as he has two wives now living and I left him for personal abuse. MARY BODYCOTE"

Wet flannel, darkened room, here we go again!

[Margaret in Burton]

Just read about this on FB. He's certainly interesting.

[kiterunner]

However, just to confuse the issue, he has sent me a copy of an advertisement from the Philadelphia Enquirer dated July 15 1863, which goes like this:

"CAUTION I HEREBY NOTIFY ALL MINISTERS and Magistrates not to marry my husband JOSEPH BODYCOTE Germantown PA as he has two wives now living and I left him for personal abuse. MARY BODYCOTE"

Wet flannel, darkened room, here we go again!

Would that be Joseph Noon Bodycote?

[Anstey Nomad]

That would be the obvious conclusion ...

[tenterfieldjulie]

Slippery little devil ain't he ... thinks this should be a mini series ..

[maggie_4_7]

Slippery little devil ain't he ... thinks this should be a mini series ..

Agrees :)

[Janet]

Curiously, Germantown appeared again this morning as I consumed my breakfast of oatmeal. Thought this was interesting about its origins. Scroll down to "Today is German-American Day".
http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/

[Anstey Nomad]

It's a district of Philadelphia now, but was founded very early. Now, it's a mainly African-American area and previous residents include a couple of members of the Stylistics. I don't think I'm related to them, but the way things are going, you never know!

[Anstey Nomad]

So, we have this advert from the newspaper, signed by Mary Bodycote and we think the Joseph Bodycote referred to is Joseph Noon Bodycote. We think his putative father, Joseph Bodycote died in 1857. I'm still waiting for the railroad to come back to me with anything they may have about the circumstances of his death.

We know Joseph Noon Bodycote married Harriet Carter in 1851 in Leicester. I've looked for a death of Harriet Bodycote and found two, but neither is relevant. One pre-dates the marriage and the other is a child.

I'm now wondering if Harriet went to the States with Joseph and was then abandoned, at which point he took up with Mary, although I can't find this Mary anywhere. He married Rebecca later on, and stayed married to her, but he married her in Illinois, where possibly no-one would know about his other wives.

"He must have been a Mormon and me mother never knew" I've just realised that probably I should not even contemplate going there!

I think the next job is to try and find his naturalisation papers and see what they say.

I may be some time.

[Anstey Nomad]

Just when you thought it was safe to put your head over the parapet, I return with an update. I said back in2014 that I was in correspondence with a three times great grandson of Joseph Jnr. Al is a straightforward sort of a guy who lives in South Jersey and seems to struggle to get his head round larger concepts. The correspondence died off in the end without a conclusion being reached.

This year I took the Ancestry DNA test, partly to consider whether Joseph senior’s wife, Elizabeth Beckwith, did have Indian ancestry as one branch of the family believes, and partly with a view to seeing if I could get any Bodycote matches in the US. It seems that there is no Indian ancestry there, but I did get 115 matches one of which was Al! Now I don’t quite understand how the DNA thing works, but he’s descended from Joseph junior and he matches with me, a descendant of Joseph senior, so does that confirm that they are father and son?

[kiterunner]

My guess is that it confirms they were related, but not how.