View Full Version : FMP help please
BK6 updated from this thread
I've found a record about OH's mysterious grandfather, John Hamilton, in the crime and punishment records on FMP and have downloaded the image. He seems to have been tried with three or four other men for the same offence, all but one of whom have their details on the same page. I can't work out how to get to the record of the first man (I think there is probably more info about the crime in the first man's record) as I don't know his name and I can't see that there is a facility to turn the page. Any ideas?
The record is for John Hamilton in 1922 at Maidstone. It's entry number 30 I am trying to get to. I tried searching for the victim's surname in Keywords (Harryman), but it came back with no matches even though his name is transcribed in the Printer Friendly version of JH's record (EDIT see next post).
I did try looking in FMP's newspaper records for info on the offence/others convicted etc to no avail. No doubt I've missed something obvious!
I can't get round this:
You must enter either at least the 1st 3 characters of the last name
when I don't know the last name of the other criminal.
I bothered to read the Search Tips and saw this:
Was your ancestor the criminal or the victim?
The Crime, Prisons & Punishment records often list the victims of a crime as well as the criminal. You can search for either a victim or a criminal by using this search box.
So I thought "Problem solved" as I hadn't tried the victim's name in the main box. Tried that and got no matches! lol
*sigh*
kiterunner
13-05-13, 07:23
Try Frederick Burgess Liddle.
I will when I come back later, thanks!
How did you do that???? :eek:
ElizabethHerts
13-05-13, 07:32
Merry, I've tried all sorts of things but I'm having no more luck than you.
ElizabethHerts
13-05-13, 07:34
Well done, Kate! I'm not surprised that it was you who got it.:)
*Drums fingers waiting for the secret.*
Thanks again Kate. I will have to look at FMP later on as I can't view their images on my phone and U'm at mum's at the moment.
tenterfieldjulie
13-05-13, 09:52
Waits ...
The victim - William Leonard Harryman - was the publican at the Crown, Peckham High Street. Seems that he may have given up the licence in 1923.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/32818/pages/3100/page.pdf
Mary from Italy
13-05-13, 16:46
If you copy the url, you'll see the number 272210 near the end. I tried changing it to 272209 to see if it'd give me the previous page, but it gave me the same one again. However, changing it to 272208 gave the previous page.
The victim had a rather nice car. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wolseley_possibly_Ten_1230cc_September_1923.J PG
Thanks Mary :)
lol Shona - maybe you could find out more about John Hamilton as well!!!!!!! :D
Indeed, though no one knows where his middle name came from - only used by his wife on official documents. I believe she thought it was part of his given name, but he never used it as far as we know.
tenterfieldjulie
13-05-13, 23:47
Merry is he the one that went to Canada? Julie
No, though we think he had a sister who went to Canada or US.
We know a lot (probably too much lol) about him from about 1917 onwards, but before that he 'didn't exist'. We think he may have used an alias when he joined the British army (he was from Cork) during WW1. After that, most of the time he was in the merchant navy (and we are gradually learning, also in jail from time to time). When he wasn't doing either of those things he lived in lodgings in Southampton after he separated from OH's nan (because he sold her furniture to pay for his drinking). He died in the early 60s (no fixed abode) and his Catholic remains were donated to medical science by his daughter (she wasn't his next of kin, but no one bothered about that) to save paying for a funeral. Oxford Uni paid for a funeral a year after his death.
Merry,
I've been taking a look at JCH's medal record card.
The card states that he forfeited his medals and it was said (somewhere) this was because he never saw action and was in the UK throughout the war. Is there proof of this?
I think it's rather odd to have a medal card filled out with all the wrong info.
Perhaps the medals were forfeited for another reason. Perhaps they got wind of his criminal activities?
If he really did go to France, he arrived there on 12 May 1915. This suggests that JCH may have been part of the 9th (Scottish) Division.
The 9th trained at Salisbury (Aug 1914) and Bordon (Sept 1914) and crossed to France between 9-12 May 1915.
kiterunner
14-05-13, 15:00
There are some references given where it says that the medals were forfeited - BW & V M forfeited auth min 3 EF/2/7087. Any idea what that means?
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 15:11
Occasionally, the medal card will confirm that the individual did not receive any medals, including many soldiers who went to France after 11 November 1918. They thought they were entitled and applied, but had their application refused.
Others failed to meet the required criteria for certain awards, had not served abroad, or forfeited their campaign medals due to a disciplinary infringement.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/medal-index-cards-ww1.htm
I understood the medals were forfeited because he didn't serve abroad and I'm fairly certain that came from someone who should know, but will have to ask OH when he gets home. All the letters JH wrote to his fiancée in 1917 and 1918 were written from army hospitals (bronchitis again) or garrisons in the UK.
or forfeited their campaign medals due to a disciplinary infringement.
I would be surprised if this turned out to be the reason!!
He did serve overseas!
Here is the record for his Silver War Badge:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2456&iid=wo329_2969-00019&fn=John&ln=Hamilton&st=d&ssrc=&pid=25705
56967
Gunner
Hamilton, John
6B Res Bde
Enlisted: 26 Dec 1914
Discharged: 3 Dec 1917
Reason for discharge: sickness
Age: 23
Whether served overseas: Yes
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 15:42
Most of the references on the 1914-18 forum to medal forfeiture relate to desertion, but I thought this was interesting:
According to the Who Do You Think You Are? episode with the gorgeous Patsy Kensit, medals were forfeit for any criminal conviction - not just murder - anything that brought the good name of the Army into disrepute.
Her paternal grandfather forfeited his WW1 medals on being sent down for 3 years for robbery in February 1921.
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=146705
He did serve overseas!
Here is the record for his Silver War Badge:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2456&iid=wo329_2969-00019&fn=John&ln=Hamilton&st=d&ssrc=&pid=25705
56967
Gunner
Hamilton, John
6B Res Bde
Enlisted: 26 Dec 1914
Discharged: 3 Dec 1917
Reason for discharge: sickness
Age: 23
Whether served overseas: Yes
Yes, we knew about that, but were told it was withdrawn because he didn't serve abroad and the issue was in error.
That's what I was thinking, Mary.
If the John Hamilton who was given 12 months hard labour for stealing Mr Harryman's car is Merry's OH's mysterious John Claude Hamilton, then that would explain why the medals were forfeited.
Initially, John Hamilton was a driver with the RFA - that may refer to horses, but could mean he drove a motorised vehicle.
The 'gang' would have needed a driver in order to make off with Mr Harryman's car.
OH says the person who told us the reason for the retraction of the medals was a professional researcher working at TNA who we employed to find (try and find!) JH's army service papers about ten years ago. The army papers did not survive.
I didn't realise they could retract the medals years after they were earned!
The criminal is definitely our JH!! When he was involved I stealing the rolls of fabric in Bristol (mentioned in the papers re stealing Mr Harryman's car) the newspaper reporter stated he was from Cork and was know to the police in Southampton and was a ships fireman, which fit our man exactly.
My poor mother-in-law was born a week into his second prison term :(
OH says the person who told us the reason for the retraction of the medals was a professional researcher working at TNA who we employed to find (try and find!) JH's army service papers about ten years ago. The army papers did not survive.
Looking at the time line on the card:
18 Aug 1920
Reference to the BW and VM (British War Medal and Victory Medal).
20 Nov 1921
Officer in command Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery receives enquiries re forfeiture of medals.
22 Dec 1921
BW and VM returned without letter.
3 Feb 1922
The CR under this date ref has been puzzling me. Could it mean 'criminal record'?
There is no mention of the 1915 Star of Silver War Medal being returned.
kiterunner
14-05-13, 16:29
3 Feb 1922
The CR under this date ref has been puzzling me. Could it mean 'criminal record'?
Could it be Clasp and Roses?
All very interesting how this is coming together. Maybe one day something might turn up with an alias that is his real name!! On the other hand it bothers me that as he had such a bad relationship with his Scottish father, why choose a Scottish surname for the alias (if indeed he used one)?
Could it be Clasp and Roses?
Might do, but I thought in WW1 this was awarded for being at Mons in 1914. If the enlisted date of 26 December 1914 on the Silver War Badge record is correct, then he won't have been at Mons.
All very interesting how this is coming together. Maybe one day something might turn up with an alias that is his real name!! On the other hand it bothers me that as he had such a bad relationship with his Scottish father, why choose a Scottish surname for the alias (if indeed he used one)?
The Silver Ward Badge states that he served with the '6B Res Bde' of the RFA.
The 6B Reserve Brigade were a home-based unit based at Piershill Barracks in Edinburgh.
What do we think to the enlistment and discharge dates? They haven't been disputed have they?
I don't think we can say anything about the enlistment date, but the discharge date of 3 Dec 1917 I can check a little.......I will have to look at his bundle of letters - I thought some of them were written after that, but I may well be wrong - they were certainly all written whilst he was in the army.
Hmmm - looks like the brigade was in Glasgow in 1914.
From Family Search:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMQH-K4G
1913
David John Hutton, alias Hamilton, Tullamore Prison, Offaly, no fixed abode, born 1895 Cork, offence - false answering on attestation.
Also from Family Search:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KM7H-125
1913
John Hamilton, Mountjoy Prison, Dublin, age 18, born Cork, 1895.
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 18:24
Shona, you're doing a great job.
I turned up this one:
Name: David Hutten
Event Type: Birth
Event Date: Apr - Jun 1895
Event Place: Cork, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1895
Registration District: Cork
Age:
Birth Year (Estimated):
Mother's Maiden Name:
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 127
GS Film number: 101065
Digital Folder Number: 004193979
Image Number: 00446
No parents given.:(
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBFC-9PV
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 18:26
Hmm, there is a marriage for this chap:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYFW-HZV
Name: David John Hutton
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: Jan - Mar 1918
Event Place: Armagh, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1918
Registration District: Armagh
Age:
Birth Year (Estimated):
Mother's Maiden Name:
Volume Number: 1
Page Number: 45
GS Film number: 101264
Digital Folder Number: 004199366
Image Number: 00022
Edit: I think there are two men with the same name!
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 18:48
This is interesting:
Name Meaning for "Hamilton"
Scottish and northern Irish: habitational name from what is now a deserted village in the parish of Barkby, Leicestershire. This is named from Old English hamel ‘crooked’ + dun ‘hill’. Hamilton near Glasgow was founded by the Hamiltons and named after them. In Ireland, this name may have replaced Hamill in a few cases. It has also been used as the equivalent of the Irish (Cork) name
Ó hUrmholtaigh
There are REAMS of WW1 Army records for a David Hutton/John Hamilton amongst the pension records on Ancestry. Seems to be for earlier service though, but a very "colourful" record!
kiterunner
14-05-13, 18:53
I think he was supposed to have suggested once that his real name began with O', if I remember Merry's old threads correctly.
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 18:56
Kate, that's interesting.
On one of the Army records he gives his mother as "Margret Hutton".
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 19:02
Mother lived at Horgan's Buildings, Cork. It's still there, visible on Google Maps.
Mother lived at Horgan's Buildings, Cork. It's still there, visible on Google Maps.
WOAH!!!! Hold one - didn't I read somewhere that, when JCH was in Cork visiting his 'people', he stayed at Horgan's Buildings.
Meeeeeeeeeeerrrrry - where are you?
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 19:08
This is the thread:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=16406&highlight=Horgans+Buildings&page=4
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 19:08
Merry, get yourself back here!!
This is the thread:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=16406&highlight=Horgans+Buildings&page=4
That's the one.
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 19:11
I hope this link goes straight to the page:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=1114&iid=miuk1914a_084652-01566&sid=&gskw=John+Hamilton
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 19:13
She lived at no. 96 and I can see the house on Google Street view!!!
Unless they have changed the numbers since, that is....
kiterunner
14-05-13, 19:20
There is a 5 year old David Hutton at Main Street, Passage West, Monkstown, Cork, on the 1901 census. Some kind of Catholic boarding school.
She lived at no. 96 and I can see the house on Google Street view!!!
Unless they have changed the numbers since, that is....
This is what Kiterunner discovered on the earlier thread where Horgan's Buildings came up in relation to JCH.
'Looking at the 1945 Cork directory (on the same site as that 1921 one), Magazine Road starts on page 519 and going on to page 520, Horgan's Buildings has numbers going from 1-126, so it could be he meant 98 Horgan's Buildings, Magazine Road?'
I spent forever trying to make that David John Hutton into the right person, but eventually had to give in and accept it wasn't him. Of course not I can't remember why offhand!
WOAH!!!! Hold one - didn't I read somewhere that, when JCH was in Cork visiting his 'people', he stayed at Horgan's Buildings.
Meeeeeeeeeeerrrrry - where are you?
Sorry, my mum is in hospital and I keep having to answer the phone!
Did he (say he was at Horgans buildings? I don't think he said that when he was visiting, but the name rings a bell.)
Were Horgans Buildings the same place as Magazine Road/Buildings? He gave that as his address when he was arrested in 1921.
Why can't I remember why I discounted DJ Hutton/ I would have thought it was because I found a different death for him.
I can't do this now, but can someone look and see if DJ Hutton's army papers/pension papers are slotted into the run under "Ham". I vaguely remember that, but I was sure I positively proved it wasn't him.
Sorry, not got my head round any of it at the moment.
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 20:12
Merry, so sorry about your Mum. I hope she is being well cared for.
((HUGS)) and don't run yourself ragged.
She lived at no. 96 and I can see the house on Google Street view!!!
Unless they have changed the numbers since, that is....
When JH was arrested in 1921 his address was 96 Magazine Road, so same address, so it has to be him, surely? Wish I had time to read posts - it's not fair finding these things today (coz of my mum keeping me busy!) after 25 years.
Thanks Elizabeth for your last post.
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 21:16
Not sure if it's relevant, but possibly...
There's a Scottish divorce case in 1895 between seaman David Hutton (first mate of the ship Glenclova) and his wife Margaret née Sconnell. They met in Cork and married in Dundee in 1891. According to the husband she became addicted to drink, and one day in January 1894 he found her in bed with the postman.
Her address was given as 36 College Road, Cork.
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 21:25
Very interesting, Mary.
I found the case on FMP newspapers:
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/newspapers/view/BL/0000452/18950601/053/0003?&firstName=David&lastName=Hutton&county=ALL&keywords=&fromYear=1885&toYear=1900&includeVariants=true&pageNumber=1
This evening I read College Road on something but I don't know what. I have been re-reading DJH's army record and the 1911/01 Irish census, but I haven't been concentrating. :(:(:(
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 21:27
Hmm, this is all happening at about the time when David John Hutton was born.
They met in Cork and married in Dundee in 1891.
JH's father was supposed to be from Dundee. (he was supposed to be the harbourmaster)
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 21:29
Hmm, this is all happening at about the time when David John Hutton was born.
Exactly. And JCH said his father was Scottish.
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 21:33
However, I've checked ScotlandsPeople, and there isn't a marriage in Dundee or anywhere else for a David Hutton to a Margaret Sconnell in or around 1891.
There are two marriages listed for a David Hutton, both in Dundee in 1891: one to Margaret Shepherd and one to Margaret Mitchell. They both have the same reference number, so it's maybe the same marriage (I'm not really familiar with the site).
The newspaper article says that they were married before the Registar. The SP index says the marriage was in the St. Andrew's district of Dundee - no idea if that only refers to the church, or if it includes the Register Office.
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 21:33
Merry, sleep tight. I hope you manage to get an uninterrupted night.
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 21:33
How's your mum doing, Merry?
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 21:36
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/newspapers/view/BL/0000453/18950601/055/0003?&firstName=David&lastName=Hutton&county=ALL&keywords=&fromYear=1885&toYear=1900&includeVariants=true&pageNumber=2
A different first name, and also the postman is named.
Mayard??
ElizabethHerts
14-05-13, 21:40
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/newspapers/view/BL/0000162/18950603/017/0003?&firstName=David&lastName=Hutton&county=ALL&keywords=&fromYear=1885&toYear=1900&includeVariants=true&pageNumber=4
A slightly longer report, with extra details.
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 21:46
I had some spare SP credits so I had a look at the marriage image. The two marriage entries I found do relate to the same couple (both widowed); it's hard to read, but it doesn't appear to be the right one. The date looks wrong, and the groom's father's name is wrong.
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 21:58
I can't do this now, but can someone look and see if DJ Hutton's army papers/pension papers are slotted into the run under "Ham".
Yes, they are.
Exactly. And JCH said his father was Scottish.
He did, though it could be a step-father - it was whoever was the father figure in his family home in 1918/19. Maybe this was a step-father and not the same person who wasn't recorded on his marriage cert - perhaps because he was illegitimate and/or the son of the postman! (lol you couldn't make that up, unless you said milkman!)
Mum was OK today physically (well, for her age) but she has lost the plot a lot more mentally so I don't know what will happen next. She told me she had been in the hospital for two weeks (well, I don't think she is sure its a hospital) when it's actually 24 hours and that she had an operation four days ago. She also said some visitors sleep with the patients at night!! (This was all amongst a whole lot of other incorrect comments). Before, she was very aware of not remembering things, but today if you hadn't known her you would have thought she was completely fine. I just agreed with everything.
I may get to go over this thread tomorrow evening as long as mum hasn't been discharged. Thank you everyone for what you have found - it's looking promising though I wish I could remember why I had struck DJH off the list, so I could disprove the theory!
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 22:03
You probably know this already, but make sure the hospital's checked for a water infection, which can cause symptoms similar to dementia, and is easily treated.
Thanks Mary. yes I knew that one. She doesn't have an infection that they could tell. She was v dehydrated though, but since correcting that she has got worse! I think it's more that I am more aware now she is unfamiliar surroundings and we are talking about different things.
Could shipyard timekeeper morph to harbourmaster in JH's mind? I think possibly! That's the father of DH senr according to the paper. If someone can work in a Norwegian lady (the wife of the timekeeper?) then I will be completely convinced!! lol
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 22:21
Yes, I was wondering about the timekeeper, too :)
Mum comes first, Merry. All the rest can wait.
1891 census Address: 186 Ferry Road, Dundee
David Hutton head 42 Shipyard Time Keeper b Montrose, Forfarshire
Jane Hutton wife 47 b Parish of Cray, Forfarshire
Annie Cook Hutton dau 17 b Dundee, Forfarshire
Maggie Jane Matheson Hutton dau 8 b Dundee, Forfarshire
No Norwegians!
Mary from Italy
14-05-13, 22:36
Well done, I was just starting to look at the censuses. There isn't a single Norwegian Hutton in any census as far as I can see.
kiterunner
14-05-13, 22:50
We will have to see whether there is an Aileen or a Kathleen Hutton tomorrow, won't we? If I'm remembering those names correctly? I'm off to bed now.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 05:56
Oh dear, Merry, I’m pretty sure this is your man, but I don’t think your OH is going to be very happy about it. The divorce is definitely relevant.
I’ve had a good look at the Irish criminal records on FamilySearch, and David Hutton has a string of convictions dating back to 1905. In some cases his address is given as Horgan’s Buildings, sometimes he’s of no fixed abode. The offences are mainly drunkenness and loitering & importuning, but he was also imprisoned for deserting from the army under yet another alias (Frank Noel).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KM7M-1D9
And his mother’s string of convictions is even longer… Again, mostly for drunkenness and petty theft. She sometimes calls herself Margaret Hutton, and sometimes Margaret Scannell (the name of the wife in the divorce case):
Name: Margaret Hutton Or Scannell
Also Known As Name:
Role of Individual: Prisoner
Event Type: Prison
Event Date: 1894
Event Place: Cork County, Cork, Ireland
Residence Place:
Age: 24
Birthplace: Cork
Birth Year (Estimated): 1870
Prison: Cork County
Offense: Rogue & Vagabond
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMSK-DP4
But what’s really weird is that she often appears to use a MALE alias - including David Hutton. It’s definitely her, because the dob she gives is 1870-1874, so it can’t be David himself.
However, although there are numerous examples of this, such as this one:
Name: Margt Hutton
Also Known As Name: David Hutton
Role of Individual: Prisoner
Event Type: Prison
Event Date: 1905
Event Place: Cork County, Cork, Ireland
Residence Place: Horgans Buildings
Age: 31
Birthplace: Cork
Birth Year (Estimated): 1874
Prison: Cork County
Offense: Unlawfully Commit An Act Contrary To Public Decency On The Public St
I think they’re probably mistranscriptions, and the male names are actually co-defendants (because there are too many similar records under other names to make it likely that they’re all cross-dressers).
Unfortunately you can’t view the criminal register images online; you have to go to an LDS centre to view them. No idea if there’ll be much extra information, but it might clarify the point about the aliases. The online index only goes up to 1924, so there may be more to come :(
My guess is that the child Kate found in the 1901 census in a boarding school is David in some kind of orphanage/school for neglected children; he then leaves the orphanage and either runs away from home or his mother takes him out begging and/or stealing with her (probably the latter if I’m right that they’re co-defendants in several cases). This is obviously just speculation, though.
At this point it might be worth your while getting the 1895 birth certificate that Elizabeth found.
That's right Kate!
I know there really was at least one sister as OH's nan met one in London before the sister went abroad to live.
I still can't recall why I discounted DH, but I suppose it may just have been that he just didn't seem to fit (ie no concrete evidence at all that he wasn't "the one" - there have been many other people eliminated, so I may be thinking of one of those - I seem to have broken my own rule abut keeping the evidence of disproving things as well as proving them!!!)......we didn't know of JH's criminal record when we were looking at DH, so DH looked too out of control even for JH! I didn't spot the matching address of 96 Horgan's Buildings/Magazine Road because there was at least a several month gap between looking at the newspaper for JH and looking at DH's army papers. I know I had never looked at them together.
I previously struggled to get past JH and his so-called college education, ability to speak several languages and confident handwriting in very well constructed letters when compared with DH; a rather too short farm labourer with a childish signature. But you all finding these positive bits of info (well, "linking" if not exactly "positive" lol) puts a different light on things altogether.
I've just worked out that I won't be in the house today from 8am until dinner time tonight, so this will all have to wait until then for me to try and take everything in, which isn't happening at the moment very well (and only then if mum is still safely in the hospital!).
In the mean-time carry on without me lololol!!!! Or you could try Peter Henry Harrison for Marg if you are on a roll!
Thanks to all of you for what you have tracked down so far. I am getting a good vibe!
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 06:10
Merry, your post crossed with mine, just in case you haven't noticed it.
OK, read back quickly for now.
May have been post 39 info that put me off DH previously (Elizabeth posted a marriage for him in Ireland when he should have been here in England, but maybe not the same man?)
Mary, nothing would shock OH about JH! That is all really interesting in your last post. Sounds as if DH had a pretty raw deal as a child then.
I keep thinking of OH's nan who did aged 96 in 1996. She was such a lovely lady - I just can't imagine her being mixed up with someone who wasn't completely on the straight and narrow.
Have to go and jump in the shower now.
Thanks again everyone!
PS I note DH never seems to have been born (no birth cert in that name in Ireland - was he born in Scotland?) so another similarity with JH!!!!!!! lolol (joke!)
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 06:18
Sounds as if DH had a pretty raw deal as a child then.
Yes, it would probably explain a lot about his later life, poor man. The convictions for drunkenness start at the age of 10, assuming it is him (because there's no age given).
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 06:21
PS I note DH never seems to have been born (no birth cert in that name in Ireland
The one Elizabeth found in Cork ( post # 38) matches very nicely with the birth date you gave in your earlier thread (25th April 1895/6).
Oh yes, thanks Mary (and Elizabeth lol)! I missed that whilst speed reading. Wouldn't it be great (in a way lol) if the dob matched?!!!
*gets OH to buy that cert* :D
kiterunner
15-05-13, 07:10
She sometimes calls herself Margaret Hutton, and sometimes Margaret Scannell (the name of the wife in the divorce case):
But what’s really weird is that she often appears to use a MALE alias - including David Hutton. It’s definitely her, because the dob she gives is 1870-1874, so it can’t be David himself.
However, although there are numerous examples of this, such as this one:
Name: Margt Hutton
Also Known As Name: David Hutton
Role of Individual: Prisoner
Event Type: Prison
Event Date: 1905
Event Place: Cork County, Cork, Ireland
Residence Place: Horgans Buildings
Age: 31
Birthplace: Cork
Birth Year (Estimated): 1874
Prison: Cork County
Offense: Unlawfully Commit An Act Contrary To Public Decency On The Public St
I think they’re probably mistranscriptions, and the male names are actually co-defendants (because there are too many similar records under other names to make it likely that they’re all cross-dressers).
I expect her name was given as Mrs David Hutton and there was no "prefix / title" field for the transcribe to key the Mrs into.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 07:26
There is a Margaret Hutton age 34, widow, born Cork, on the 1911 census at Kernanstown, Carlow, working as a servant (laundry maid) to a laundress called Isabella Campbell.
Edit - David Hutton's army papers give next of kin as mother Margaret Hutton, address Brown Hill, Carlow, in 1911. And on one copy of the page this is crossed out and replaced with 96 Horgans Bdgs, Cork.
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 07:26
Hmm, there is a marriage for this chap:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYFW-HZV
Name: David John Hutton
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: Jan - Mar 1918
Event Place: Armagh, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1918
Registration District: Armagh
Age:
Birth Year (Estimated):
Mother's Maiden Name:
Volume Number: 1
Page Number: 45
GS Film number: 101264
Digital Folder Number: 004199366
Image Number: 00022
Edit: I think there are two men with the same name!
Merry, to reassure you and dismiss this one, I turned up a birth for one in Armagh, in the 1870s I think, so there were two people with the same name, but not to be confused!
kiterunner
15-05-13, 08:28
1901 Scottish census (according to ancestry):
11 Cardcan Street, Dundee
Annie Cochran Head 27 Dundee, Forfarshire
John Cochran Son 3 mo Dundee, Forfarshire
Maggie J Hutton sister 18 Dressmaker Dundee, Forfarshire
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 08:42
David and Jane Hutton are together with no children in 1901.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?censusYear=1901&uir=eb32bb2e409f6c68&lineNo=24&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=6f5fffa9938915787c9f2fc20c9ecb8f4c4742111 11794ce301125d4ff5f99699ab00bad84ce37d5&pagetype=6
kiterunner
15-05-13, 08:45
Link to that same 1901 census entry on ancestry:
1901 census transcription ancestry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f4=david&f6=hutton&sx=&f1=&f2=&f22=&f10=&f11=&f16=&f20=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&f13__ftp=&f8=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=jane&f7=&gskw=&prox=1&db=1901scotland&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=1&h=3473908&recoff=)
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 08:46
There is a baptism for David Hutton at Montrose to parents William Hutton and Jane Gillan in 1838 - on Family Search.
However, I suppose we ought to go one step at a time....
We know that David John Hutton's mother was Margaret Scannell and that she was in Cork at the time of her divorce.
Talk about a repeat offender!
Mostly she gets banged up in Cork - the last time appears to be 1906. Her address in Cork is Horgan's Buildings. However, she was also 'active' in Dublin.
In 1911, Maggie Hutton/Scannell, also known as Nora Cunningham, born Cork, is in Mountjoy Prison in Dublin for activities connected with her profession (yes, I'm being coy on purpose). Her address when arrested was Purdon Street, Dublin.
In the same year, David John Hutton enlists with the Royal Dublin Fusiliers - he hadn't lived at his father's house in the previous three years.
1912: Maggie is back in Mountjoy, this time for soliciting. The address on this occasion was given as Elliot Place, Dublin.
December 1912: After a string of offences, David John Hutton is discharged from the army.
1913: David John Hutton aka Hamilton in Tullamore Prison, Offally. In the same year, he is also in prison in Mountjoy.
At the end of 1914, John Hamilton enlists with the Royal Field Artillery.
1916: Maggie is banged up for issuing counterfeit coin. Residence: Elliot Place.
1917: This time she's in for shebeening. The name Patrick Scannell is also recorded. Residence: 6 Elliot Place.
1918: Drunk. Residence is 6 Elliot Place. David Hutton's name recorded.
1919: Twice in Mountjoy - once for soliciting and once for drunk and disorderly. Still at Elliot Place. The name Pat Scannell is recorded.
There is a Margaret Hutton age 34, widow, born Cork, on the 1911 census at Kernanstown, Carlow, working as a servant (laundry maid) to a laundress called Isabella Campbell.
Edit - David Hutton's army papers give next of kin as mother Margaret Hutton, address Brown Hill, Carlow, in 1911. And on one copy of the page this is crossed out and replaced with 96 Horgans Bdgs, Cork.
I can't find any criminal activities attributed to Margaret/Maggie Hutton/Scannell aka Nora Cunningham between 1907 and 1912, but I haven't searched Co Carlow yet!
There is a 1901 prison record for Margt Hutton in Cork - She had been drunk. this entry says that she was born in Gillabbey Street, Cork.
Going to try to find the sisters of John Claude Hamilton - be they Hutton, Hamilton, Scannell, Cunningham, Noel or something else entirely.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 10:50
Not sure if it's relevant, but possibly...
There's a Scottish divorce case in 1895 between seaman David Hutton (first mate of the ship Glenclova) and his wife Margaret née Sconnell. They met in Cork and married in Dundee in 1891. According to the husband she became addicted to drink, and one day in January 1894 he found her in bed with the postman.
Her address was given as 36 College Road, Cork.
This evening I read College Road on something but I don't know what. I have been re-reading DJH's army record and the 1911/01 Irish census, but I haven't been concentrating. :(:(:(
College Road is the address of a man who gives David Hutton a reference in his army papers.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 10:51
I expect her name was given as Mrs David Hutton and there was no "prefix / title" field for the transcribe to key the Mrs into.
I hadn't thought of that, and I bet you're right.
Although if I remember rightly, the male name wasn't always David; there was a William, James and Frank as well, I think. She perhaps made up a different husband's name every time she was arrested.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 11:00
I had some spare credits to use up on SP too and I have found the marriage!
30 Jul 1891 at 9 Ward Road, St Mary, Dundee. David Hutton, Mate Merchant Service, bachelor, age 22, 186 Ferry Road, Dundee, father David Hutton, timekeeper, mother Jane Hutton, MS Cook, and Maggie Scannell, spinster, age 20, 186 Ferry Road, Dundee, father Patrick Scannell, mercantile clerk, deceased, mother Margaret Scannell, MS Holmes.
Warrant of Sheriff Substitute .
Declaration in presence of David Hutton, timekeeper and James Paterson shipbuilder, both residing in Dundee.
RCE entry to follow in a minute...
kiterunner
15-05-13, 11:03
Register of Corrected Entries for the District of St Mary in the Burgh of Dundee
Register of Marriages for the District of St Mary in the Burgh of Dundee for the year 1891 Entry No 152.
June 1895 - Decree of Divorce was pronounced by Lord Kincairney, Ordinary, in an action at the distance(?) of David Hutton, Junior, first Mate of the Ship Glendova presently in Yokohama, ... against Mrs Margaret Scannell or Hutton, lately residing at Elizabeth Place, 129 Hawkhill, Dundee and now residing at 36 College Road, Cork Ireland.
The above insertion is made under the direction of the Registrar-General in terms of the 5th Section of the act 18 Vict c 29, 18 June 1895. John Taylor Asst Registrar.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 11:06
Brilliant, I hadn't noticed that she used the name Maggie until after I searched SP.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 11:10
So it's John Hamilton's grandfather who was timekeeper at Dundee, not his father.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 11:14
1881 census at 1 Springhill, Dundee, according to ancestry:
David Hutton Head 37 Pickermaker Montrose, Forfarshire
Jane Hutton Wife 37 Craig, Forfarshire
David Hutton Son 12 App Draper Montrose, Forfarshire
Jessie A E Hutton daughter 10 Scholar Dundee, Forfarshire
Ann C Hutton Daughter 7 Scholar Dundee, Forfarshire.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 11:24
So it's John Hamilton's grandfather who was timekeeper at Dundee, not his father.
Yes, his father was a merchant seaman.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 11:31
David Hutton is in the Masters and Mates Certificates on ancestry, certificate of competency as second mate dated 23 May 1890, address 186 Ferry Rd, Dundee, born 16 Feb 1869 Montrose Forfar. Certificate of competency as first mate dated 8 Sep 1893, address Elizabeth Place, 129 Hawkhill, Dundee. Certificate of competency as master 18 Dec 1896, address 186 Ferry Road, Dundee, residing with David Hutton senr.
But wait - was the divorce before or after young David / John Hamilton's birth? Is David Hutton the father, or is the father the postman?
The divorce was 1895 as was JCH/DJH's birth.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 11:37
According to the newspaper articles Margaret was said to have been living an "immoral life" while her husband was away at sea, so who David's father was is anybody's guess. If the 1895 birth is correct, I would assume it wasn't David senior, because Margaret was caught with the postman in January 1894, and I'm guessing they weren't reconciled after that.
So whoever the hard-hearted Scotsman was, I shouldn't think it was David senior, who David junior probably never even met.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 11:38
Oh, so the immoral events with the postman Wm Brown and another man named Paton happened in Jan 1894, and the divorce was granted in Jun 1895. Young David Hutton / John Hamilton seems to have been born in 1895 so it looks unlikely that David Hutton was actually his father, doesn't it?
Edit - sorry, we were all posting at the same time! I had to read through the newspaper articles.
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 11:38
But wait - was the divorce before or after young David / John Hamilton's birth? Is David Hutton the father, or is the father the postman?
Yesterday it did occur to me that we might never truly knowthe father of David/John, given the circumstances at the time of his birth/conception.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 11:39
College Road is the address of a man who gives David Hutton a reference in his army papers.
Can you post the name, just in case he turns out to be relevant? I can't face ploughing through the file...
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 11:41
It might also be the case that Margaret herself could never be sure who the father of John/David was, if she had been busy entertaining other men.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 11:42
Oh, so the immoral events with the postman Wm Brown and another man named Paton happened in Jan 1894, and the divorce was granted in Jun 1895. Young David Hutton / John Hamilton seems to have been born in 1895 so it looks unlikely that David Hutton was actually his father, doesn't it?
He was born in the 2nd quarter of 1895 if that birth is correct.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 11:48
Roots Ireland doesn't have records for the city of Cork, by the look of it. I was wondering if we could find his birth or baptism on there but it looks as though Merry will have to get her husband to order the birth certificate from the Irish GRO.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 11:48
Can you post the name, just in case he turns out to be relevant? I can't face ploughing through the file...
Sorry, I saw it last night but it was late and I didn't make a note of it. Or maybe it was when I had to go out this morning! Can't remember now! I'll plough through again and find it.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 11:51
I haven't found any newspaper articles about Margaret or David's various convictions; unfortunately there seem to be very few Irish newspapers online.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 11:54
This is the reference:
ancestry pension records page (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1114/MIUK1914A_084652-01557/421122?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dBritishArmy%26db%3d%26so%3d2% 26rank%3d0%26gsfn%3ddav*%26gsln%3dhutt*n%26sx%3d%2 6gs1co%3d1%252cAll%2bCountries%26gs1pl%3d1%252c%2b %26year%3d%26yearend%3d%26sbo%3d0%26sbor%3d%26ufr% 3d0%26wp%3d4%253b_80000002%253b_80000003%26srchb%3 dr%26prox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-b&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=MIUK1914A_0 84652-01576)
Jas Wellwood, Sergeant, address College Road, signed the reference but it seems to be addressed to Sergeant McCarthy, College Road, so maybe there was an army place there? David's address is given as Bandon Road. Date is 30th Jun 1911.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 11:57
OK, thanks, I was wondering if it was a cohabitee of his mother's, but it doesn't look like it in that case.
...and David was 'a respectable young fellow'.
When the census was done in 1911, Margaret Hutton was in Co Carlow.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 12:02
Yes, I think Kate posted the census details upthread.
Well done for finding all those convictions - I think I put Cork as the birthplace when I searched, and I completely missed some of the Dublin ones.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 12:02
When the census was done in 1911, Margaret Hutton was in Co Carlow.
Yes, that's right, Shona - see post #86.
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 12:03
Shona, one of her addresses on the army records was at Carlow, crossed out with Horgans Buildings substituted.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 12:04
Roots Ireland doesn't have records for the city of Cork, by the look of it. I was wondering if we could find his birth or baptism on there but it looks as though Merry will have to get her husband to order the birth certificate from the Irish GRO.
Yes, I think so. I also looked for a baptism and didn't find one.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 12:21
I haven't found any newspaper articles about Margaret or David's various convictions; unfortunately there seem to be very few Irish newspapers online.
There is this site but you have to pay to view the articles, although you can search and view snippets for free:
http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/
Minimum sub is 10 Euros for 24 hours. :(
But I haven't managed to find anything that looks like them yet on the free search anyway, not been trying long though.
I'm eating my sandwiches in the car on the way to the hospital.
What a good job you are all doing. I canLt believe JH always made himself out to be the blacksheep in a nice middle class family who didn't approve of him frequenting public houses. Goodness knows who hard headed scot was if his mother was a prostitute????
We will be getting the birth cert to see what the date of birth was.
Have to go now. Thansk again.
Given what we have found out, how do we interpret this 1919 letter.
His mother, Maggie Hutton, had been in Mountjoy Prison in Dublin in 1918 and incarcerated twice in 1919. Who are these 'people' he mentions who wouldn't even speak to him? Grandparents? The elusive sisters (I can't find them...)? Then again, When I hear sisters, my mind wonders on to nuns. Certainly, the church and authorities were very active in Dublin at that time with regards to prostitution - Magdalene Laundries, etc.
Here'a a bit about the area.
'Monto was the nickname for a one-time notorious red light district in Dublin. Monto was roughly the area bounded by Talbot Street, Amiens Street, Gardiner Street and Seán McDermott Street (formerly Gloucester Street). The name is derived from Montgomery Street (now called Foley Street), which runs parallel to the lower end of Talbot Street towards what is now Connolly Station. It was immortalised as "Nighttown" in the "Circe" chapter of James Joyce's Ulysses, where the central protagonists Leopold Bloom and Stephen Dedalus together visit a brothel.
In its heyday from the 1860s-1900s, there were anything up to 1,600 prostitutes working there at any one time, with all classes of customers catered for. It was reputed to be the biggest red light district in Europe. Its financial viability aided by the number of British Army barracks and hence soldiers in the city, notably the Royal Barracks.'
Maggie seems to vanish from the records after 1919. Was she sent to a laundry? Did she die? Return to Cork?
Maggie did use Cunningham as an alias - another Scottish name!
I also wonder if this is all caught up with Republicanism. Someone who had been in the Army would have been shunned at that time in Cork, especially if Mum was providing a 'service' to the Army.
Letter from John Hamilton
Cork 25/3/(19)19.
My Own Dearest Babs,
Doubtless you might wonder why I have come on to Cork. I am beginning to wonder myself now dear. I changed my mind at the last moment at Surbiton and thought that if I came on to Cork my people would overlook things. I never made a bigger miscalculation in my life dear. They wouldn’t even speak to me. I tried every possible way Babs but it was worse than useless. I’m sorry now that I troubled about it, I might have known better. When I leave here I shall never come within a long radius of Cork.
You know my father is Scotch (sic) Babs and the decision of a hard-headed Scotsman is hard to alter. I know that I have asked for this and if I hadn’t you (to) think of dear I should just get out of the country altogether. When I left my people I felt very miserable and thought there was only one thing left to do (to get drunk) but I thought of my promise to you Babs and after all it wouldn’t have made things any better. I am leaving here shortly dear and shall call down to Porton to see you before I start my training in London. I’ll send you a wire the day before so that you can arrange to have the day off if possible. We can go to Salisbury for the day. I would have called down to see you before I left Surbiton dear but I came away in the clothes the army issue DV’s and I looked too awful for words. I looked just as though I had fell out of a mincing machine and felt like it too. I am in “digs” here Babs and it isn’t half as bad as I thought it would be. I am fairly comfortable but I am not stopping here long.
I’ll write you again Babs dearest and let you know when I am leaving. For the present “au revoir” with heaps of fondest love
From your own devoted
Jack xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 12:29
There is this site but you have to pay to view the articles, although you can search and view snippets for free:
http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/
Minimum sub is 10 Euros for 24 hours. :(
But I haven't managed to find anything that looks like them yet on the free search anyway, not been trying long though.
No, I had a quick look at the quick search there too, but no luck.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 12:30
I was reading that letter yesterday, and as Merry says, it is hard to reconcile the way he writes with what we believe we know about his early life.
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 12:40
Sadly, I think he was more than economical with the truth. It is hard to distinguish the truth from the lies.
Yesterday, Kite found David Hutton in 1901 in an institution in Cork.
The place was the St Joseph's industrial school for boys, run by the Sisters of Mercy, in Passage West, Cork. As with many of these places, it is listed as one where children were abused and tortured.
A book, A Passage in Time - History of Passage West, includes information on the school.
I wonder if there are records?
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 12:54
Oh goodness, how awful.
I'm still having no luck in tracking down with his sisters, Kathleen and Aileen.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 13:37
Goodness knows whether the names are correct. One of them is supposed to have emigrated to Canada.
Goodness knows whether the names are correct. One of them is supposed to have emigrated to Canada.
I know that the Catholic Church sent children to Australia. Did they send them to Canada, too?
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 13:55
"Home children" were certainly sent to Canada from England; not sure if they were sent from Ireland.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/home-children/index-e.html
However, we don't know the age of the sister (or half-sister?) who supposedly went to Canada.
I haven't found anything obvious for a Kathleen or A/Eileen Hutton among the home children or on the Ancestry passenger lists, but they might have had a different surname.
Trying to work this out.
1) Margaret Scannell (if that's her real surname!) met merchant seaman, David Hutton in Cork. He 'brought her back to Dundee.'
2) They marry in 1891 in Dundee. David Hutton senior is shipyard timekeeper. Poss gets exaggerated over the years to harbour master, confusion exacerbated because father and son have the same name.
3) September 1893, David Hutton at sea, Margaret 'takes up with men' as well as the drink.
4) January 1894 found with a Mr Paton. William Brown, the postman, chased from her bed.
5) Haven't been able to attribute any births to David and Margaret in Dundee. There is just one child that may fit - Margaret Beaton Hutton, b 1893. Haven't checked her parents yet.
6) Cork 1894 - Margaret Hutton or Scannell, 'rogue and vagabond' in prison.
7) David John Hutton born in Cork, AMJ quarter 1895. Fits in with stated birthdate for John Claude Hamilton.
8) Divorce between David Hutton and Margaret Scannell granted in June 1895. Her address given as College Road.
9) Census 1901: David Hutton in the St Joseph's Industrial School in Passage West.
10) 1901 - Margt Hutton, born Gillabbey Street, Cork, in prison in Cork for being drunk. Address: Wise's Avenue, Cork.
11) 1903 - Margaret imprisoned for 1) vagrancy, 2) assaulting a police officer 3) being drunk.
12) 1904 - Margaret is drunk and disorderly
13) 1905 - Drunk again. In the same year, charged with loitering and importuning. Address: Horgan's Buildings. Ditto in 1906.
14) 1911 census - Margaret working as a laundress in County Carlow. Says she is a widow.
15) Also in 1911, Margaret, aka Nora Cunningham, in Mountjoy Prison, Dublin.
EDIT: We now know that Nora Cunningham was Margaret's sister and named as next of kin.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 14:55
1) Margaret Scannell (if that's her real surname!) met merchant seaman, David Hutton in Cork.
That's the name she gave when she married David Hutton. Her parents are given as Patrick Scannell and Margaret Holmes. I haven't found a marriage for them, but the online records aren't complete.
That's the name she gave when she married David Hutton. Her parents are given as Patrick Scannell and Margaret Holmes. I haven't found a marriage for them, but the online records aren't complete.
That explains the Patrick Scannell who crops up in her prison records.
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 15:22
Re. the sisters :
I know there were meant to be two. The time frame for their births is short, considering the parents' marriage in July 1891 and the divorce in 1895.
Margaret in Burton
15-05-13, 15:51
Nothing to add but finding this fascinating.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 15:57
Re. the sisters :
I know there were meant to be two. The time frame for their births is short, considering the parents' marriage in July 1891 and the divorce in 1895.
Unless they're half-sisters born after Margaret went back to Ireland.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 16:00
Re. the sisters :
I know there were meant to be two. The time frame for their births is short, considering the parents' marriage in July 1891 and the divorce in 1895.
We don't think that David Hutton is his biological father although he was probably still Margaret's husband when David / John was born. Also probably not the father of the sisters.
7) David John Hutton born in Cork, AMJ quarter 1895. Fits in with stated birthdate for John Claude Hamilton.
The birth registration is in the name David Hutten; I think he is only called David John Hutton on (some of) the prison register records.
Nothing to add but finding this fascinating.
Next stop: Peter Harrison!!!!!
Re. the sisters :
I know there were meant to be two. The time frame for their births is short, considering the parents' marriage in July 1891 and the divorce in 1895.
One of the sisters was supposed to be Aileen because OH's mum was called Eileen (ie English from of the same name) after her. The other one we "think" was Kathleen, but nan was well into her 90s when she told us this. The one going to Canada (?) was either married or about to be married when she went, so not the other sort of sister!
Re. the sisters :
I know there were meant to be two. The time frame for their births is short, considering the parents' marriage in July 1891 and the divorce in 1895.
Especially, as David Hutton was away at sea!
If there are sisters, then my bet is that they are half-sisters - given Margaret's...ahem...profession.
The sisters could have been born in:
1) Cork - before Margaret was taken off to Dundee with the Scottish sailor.
2) Dundee between 1891 and 1894. Must check out Margaret Beaton Hutton born in 1893.
3) Cork from 1896.
4) Co Carlow - Margaret was there in 1911.
5) Dublin from 1911, but she would have been in her 40s by then, I think.
Surnames to consider:
1) Scannell
2) Hutton
3) Hamilton
4) Noel
5) Cunningham
Margaret appears in prison records, but I also wonder if she at any point ended up in a workhouse?
Hmm - Family Search seems to be down.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 16:33
Hmm - Family Search seems to be down.
Yes, broken for me too.
The Irish Genealogy site has a baptism for a Patrick Scannell at St Finbarr's South Cork, 15 Mar 1866, parents Bartholemew Scannell and Margaret Holmes.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b0753a0105980
Not sure whether it's a coincidence. There is also an Honora Scannell baptised 25 Feb 1872, parents Pat Scannell and Margaret Holmes. Johanna Scannell 8 Dec 1863, parents But Scannell and Margaret Holmes. Mary Scannell 4 Oct 1868, parents Rob Scannell and Margaret Holmes.
I haven't checked the images yet as I have to go and cook tea now.
Margaret in Burton
15-05-13, 16:38
Next stop: Peter Harrison!!!!!
Best of luck :D
This part of that letter John wrote:
We can go to Salisbury for the day. I would have called down to see you before I left Surbiton dear but I came away in the clothes the army issue DV’s and I looked too awful for words. I looked just as though I had fell out of a mincing machine and felt like it too. I am in “digs” here Babs and it isn’t half as bad as I thought it would be. I am fairly comfortable but I am not stopping here long.
He looked too awful for words and the digs were not as bad as he thought they might be.
You would think someone saying those things might have been brought up in reasonable circumstances. Still, I suppose he also doesn't sound like an alcoholic who would sell or pawn all his wife's furniture to facilitate the drinking either.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 17:11
Looking at the images on Irish Genealogy, Mary could possibly be a Marg, it's fairly indistinct. And her father's name could well be Bat rather than Rob.
I feel quite sad finding these two references on Family Search.
In 1898 and 1900, Margaret Hutton or Scannell was in prison 'for neglecting her child'.
Does this mean neglecting the same child? Or neglecting one child on 1898 and then another child in 1900?
Explains why David was in the industrial school in 1901.
Have been looking at the directories on Cork Past and Present.
In 1881, Patrick Scannell is listed as a marble mason and sculptor at 13 Douglas Street.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 17:18
Have been looking at the directories on Cork Past and Present.
In 1881, Patrick Scannell is listed as a marble mason and sculptor at 13 Douglas Street.
I think that is a different Patrick Scannell, because on Margaret's marriage certificate he is a mercantile clerk.
I'm wondering whether her father was Bartholomew, Bat for short, having looked at those baptisms, and somehow the name got confused with Patrick, Pat for short, as she had a brother called Patrick (if those baptisms are her family!) Though I did see a death reg for a Patrick Scannell in 1874, age 27. It seems to be a fairly common name though.
Edit - that death wouldn't fit with the father of those children in the baptisms as one of them was baptised 1863 so he would be too young.
kiterunner
15-05-13, 17:24
There is a Bartholemew Scannell death registered in 1872 in Cork, age 32. Possible.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 18:24
I think that is a different Patrick Scannell, because on Margaret's marriage certificate he is a mercantile clerk.
I wondered when I saw that whether it was actually true. It sounds like a pretty good (and respectable) job - you wouldn't expect him to have a daughter in and out of prison for petty crime and prostitution. Was Margaret literate? Can you tell from the marriage cert?
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 18:26
How's your mum doing, Merry? And have you told your OH about his illustrious ancestors?
kiterunner
15-05-13, 18:35
I wondered when I saw that whether it was actually true. It sounds like a pretty good (and respectable) job - you wouldn't expect him to have a daughter in and out of prison for petty crime and prostitution. Was Margaret literate? Can you tell from the marriage cert?
She seems to have signed her name. I agree that he may not have been a mercantile clerk, but it seems unlikely she would make that up if he had a different respectable occupation, don't you think? So I don't think he was a mason.
I wondered when I saw that whether it was actually true. It sounds like a pretty good (and respectable) job - you wouldn't expect him to have a daughter in and out of prison for petty crime and prostitution. Was Margaret literate? Can you tell from the marriage cert?
They both signed their names. She signed as Maggie Scannell and he signed as David Hutton jnr. He was 22 and she was 20.
They were married by declaration in front of two witnesses. The warrant was signed on 30 July 1891. The first witness looks like David Hutton, but the occupation is a time keeper. The second witness is James Paterson, shipbuilder. Both were from Dundee.
Maggie's father, Patrick Scannell, is deceased.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 18:40
He may have had a less respectable occupation, though...
How do I save an upload an SP image?
kiterunner
15-05-13, 18:50
You would have to make sure that SP's terms and conditions allow you to do that, Shona. To save it, just go onto the "viewed images", click on the "View" button for the image that you want, then where it says "Click this link to download the image direct", right-click on that link and you should get a menu including "Save target as".
kiterunner
15-05-13, 19:04
Ooh, now that FamilySearch is working again, I've found this!
Ireland Births and Baptisms: Margaret, date of birth 27 Sep 1869, birthplace 8 South, City of Cork, Ire, christening place 166, 8 South, City of Cork, Ire, father Bartholomew Scannell, mother Margaret Holmes
I'm not sure what the numbers mean, but that looks likely to be her, doesn't it?
Ooh, now that FamilySearch is working again, I've found this!
Ireland Births and Baptisms: Margaret, date of birth 27 Sep 1869, birthplace 8 South, City of Cork, Ire, christening place 166, 8 South, City of Cork, Ire, father Bartholomew Scannell, mother Margaret Holmes
I'm not sure what the numbers mean, but that looks likely to be her, doesn't it?
Cork DEDs (District Electoral Districts) were numbered.
http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/genealogy/corkcitydeds/
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 19:15
That definitely looks good, so I should think you were right about Pat being Bart.
I thought the numbered Cork DEDs only went up to 7.
On one of the prison records (1901, I think), Margt Hutton says she was born in Gillabbey Street, which is DED 5 - could 5 have been wrongly transcribed as 7?
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 19:20
It looks as though Cork 8 (south) was a registration district rather than an electoral district:
http://corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/placesalmanac/cork/
Horgan's Buildings and Magazine Road are both Cork 5 Urban.
It looks as though Cork 8 (south) was a registration district rather than an electoral district:
http://corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/placesalmanac/cork/
Thank you for that, Mary.
I've clearly spent too much time in the past searching Cork for the OH's elusive Ryans!
Ooh, now that FamilySearch is working again, I've found this!
Ireland Births and Baptisms: Margaret, date of birth 27 Sep 1869, birthplace 8 South, City of Cork, Ire, christening place 166, 8 South, City of Cork, Ire, father Bartholomew Scannell, mother Margaret Holmes
I'm not sure what the numbers mean, but that looks likely to be her, doesn't it?
It certainly does - brilliant work.
Do we agree that John Claude Hamilton and David Hutton are the same person? So many of the dots seem to join up.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 19:32
I think so, although I suppose we should make a concerted effort to find a death for David Hutton jr.
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 19:42
So do we need to look under David John?
A few on FMP.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 19:46
Does anyone have a subscription to the British Newspapers site?
There are two entries for Bartholomew Scannell, one in 1850 for stealing cows, and one in 1863 for sheep stealing. The second one's in a Cork newspaper. They aren't on FMP, which doesn't seem to include Irish newspapers.
That's more like the sort of father I would have expected for Margaret :)
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 19:47
So do we need to look under David John?
A few on FMP.
I don't think the middle name John's confirmed, is it?
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 19:48
I don't think the middle name John's confirmed, is it?
I suppose it depends on what he decided to call himself near the end of his life, or what people knew him by.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 19:51
I've found the first (1850) case on another site, but I can't tell where it happened.
A John Casey got 12 months for perjury after accusing Bartholomew Scannell and Michael Scannell of stealing two cows. Patrick Scannell and Johanna Sullivan testified that the two men didn't leave their house on the night in question.
I think so, although I suppose we should make a concerted effort to find a death for David Hutton jr.
Checked SP:
I thought I had a match for him dying at the age of 84 in 1953, but it's the wrong one. No other David Hutton deaths in Dundee are even a remote match.
But as a merchant seaman, he may have popped his clogs anywhere in the world. Grrr.
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 19:55
I got excited about a David John Hutton on FMP who died on a ship in 1955, but the age was out and subsequently I found said man on 1911 census. His place of birth was given on FMP.
How's your mum doing, Merry? And have you told your OH about his illustrious ancestors?
She was settled when I saw her, but since she has had a panic attack, a black out and a fall, so now has a bump on her head and is waiting to be moved to the cardiac unit. They are keeping her in for cognitive assessment as well, so she should be in for a few days.
OH points out he already has one prostitute on his tree (the sister of his ancestor) and she was murdered by one of her clients (he was found not guilty despite loads of evidence against him).
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 20:04
A Bartholomew Scannell (alias Seward) features prominently in the prison registers on FamilySearch.
In 1863 he was imprisoned in Cork for sheepstealing, which ties in with the second cutting I mentioned above. He was 45, and imprisoned in the Grangegorman female prison in Dublin :eek:
The other convictions are a mixed bag: drunkenness, riotous and indecent behaviour, stealing potatoes, etc.
Ditto Michael Scannell. It's going to take Merry years to transcribe all this stuff :)
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 20:16
She was settled when I saw her, but since she has had a panic attack, a black out and a fall, so now has a bump on her head and is waiting to be moved to the cardiac unit. They are keeping her in for cognitive assessment as well, so she should be in for a few days.
That sounds like a good thing, so you know she's in safe hands.
OH points out he already has one prostitute on his tree (the sister of his ancestor) and she was murdered by one of her clients (he was found not guilty despite loads of evidence against him).
Being descended from a long line of drunks and petty thieves will come as a pleasant surprise, then :)
At some point I'm gong to have to go back through the thread and ask where you have found much of the information as I know nothing about Scottish research, hardly anything about Irish and I don't have anyone in jail on my tree (yet!!)
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 20:17
Stop it, Mary!!!
25 years you've been looking for this family and you're complaining already :confused:
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 20:21
ScotlandsPeople is the main site for Scottish results. You can search the index for free, but you have to pay to view the full results.
They often give out free credits, which is what Kate and I have been using.
Their records are much better than English ones: hard to read, but like Australian records, you get much more information (e.g. both parents' names on marriage certs and parents' names on death certs).
You have to register (free) to do an index search.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
You get 10 free credits if you sign up to this site:
http://www.ancestralscotland.com/newsletter/
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 20:24
Irish BMDs (very little information) and Irish prison records are on familysearch.
Search for the name you want, and then click on Collections and choose Probate & Court to get the prison registers.
There are some Irish PRs here (pay per view), but lots of gaps:
http://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com
25 years you've been looking for this family and you're complaining already :confused:
lololol :D:D Can we have some ordinary ag labs now!? :D:D:D
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 20:28
lololol :D:D Can we have some ordinary ag labs now!? :D:D:D
This is much more fascinating, Merry, but I'd be interested to know what you tell your children...
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 20:29
I think Margaret Scannell had a sister who married William Gorman (haven't found her baptism, but her father's name was given as Bartholomew when she got married.
I haven't found anything obvious for her in the prison records (at least there's no Hannah Gorman aka Scannell).
I feel quite sad finding these two references on Family Search.
In 1898 and 1900, Margaret Hutton or Scannell was in prison 'for neglecting her child'.
Does this mean neglecting the same child? Or neglecting one child on 1898 and then another child in 1900?
Explains why David was in the industrial school in 1901.
Where did Shona find this on FS?
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 20:31
For the record, Family Search had the birth:
Shona, you're doing a great job.
I turned up this one:
Name: David Hutten
Event Type: Birth
Event Date: Apr - Jun 1895
Event Place: Cork, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1895
Registration District: Cork
Age:
Birth Year (Estimated):
Mother's Maiden Name:
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 127
GS Film number: 101065
Digital Folder Number: 004193979
Image Number: 00446
No parents given.:(
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBFC-9PV
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 20:33
Where did Shona find this on FS?
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2043780
This is much more fascinating, Merry, but I'd be interested to know what you tell your children...
lol My daughter (who should be in bed) is sitting next to me. I just told her we might have found JH's parents (*points to his photo on the trophy cabinet*) and then I said, "His mother seems to have been a prostitute" - so that's nice and clear for her!! lol
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 20:40
Well, Merry, it's best to be matter of fact about these things.
At least these days we don't have so much stigma attached to these things. How very sad for DH's/JCH's wife, though, who was obviously a lovely soul.
Mary from Italy
15-05-13, 20:43
I find I get the best results on FS by not including any dates - it brings up far more (relevant) hits that way. However, I didn't find the two neglect cases that Shona found, although I did find several entries for a Margaret Scannell born c. 1813-1818, who'd be about the right age to be Bartholomew's wife.
Well, Merry, it's best to be matter of fact about these things.
At least these days we don't have so much stigma attached to these things. How very sad for DH's/JCH's wife, though, who was obviously a lovely soul.
I did add that in those days some women who were left without a husband, in this case because he went to sea for months on end, might find it difficult to manage on what money they had and so, if they couldn't get a proper job, resorted to prostitution because they were desperate. Of course it's difficult to get a job if you are drunk much of the time, but I left that part out!
Yes OH's nan was a lovely quiet lady brought up mainly in a rural village in Staffordshire, though OH says he thinks she was very determined to get what she wanted when she was young - eg she joined The Women's Army Auxiliary Corps during WW1 when she was underage and stopped her mother from reporting her. I guess she was swept away by some of JH's stories and apparently by his love of literature that she knew little about (another bit of the tale that doesn't fit with all this stuff found today!) and by the time she saw the rest of his character they were already married.
ElizabethHerts
15-05-13, 21:21
Wars certainly threw together people who would not have otherwise met, and I suppose many marriages took place between people who came from very different backgrounds. Your OH's nan, on the face of it, had no reason to disbelieve what she was told. I think nowadays we are far less trusting, and perhaps rightly so.
Merry, there are so many prison records for Maggie H on FS. I went through them one by one and that's how I came across the two child neglect cases. If you go to FS and enter Margaret Hutton and an exact birthplace of Cork, all the records should come up. There must be associated court records somewhere, too.
Odd to think that John Claude Hamilton ended up in the merchant navy just like his father.
I've done loads of research on the merchant seamen and trawler men of Grimsby and, for the vast majority, they seemed to collect their pay when they docked and then headed straight to the pub. Locally, it was referred to as the 'dock races' with the women trying to intercept the men to get some money before they spent it all in the pub.
I've found the same pattern for my Scottish merchant sailor families.
Btw: Have Huttons in my tree - I think they were Fifers, not Dundonians.
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2043780
Thanks Elizabeth.
I find I get the best results on FS by not including any dates - it brings up far more (relevant) hits that way. However, I didn't find the two neglect cases that Shona found, although I did find several entries for a Margaret Scannell born c. 1813-1818, who'd be about the right age to be Bartholomew's wife.
I will have a look at those, thanks Mary.
Merry, there are so many prison records for Maggie H on FS. I went through them one by one and that's how I came across the two child neglect cases. If you go to FS and enter Margaret Hutton and an exact birthplace of Cork, all the records should come up. There must be associated court records somewhere, too.
Odd to think that John Claude Hamilton ended up in the merchant navy just like his father.
I'll be checking out Maggie's entries on FS! Thanks Shona.
My mother-in-law said JH (her father) had the wanderlust lol but I don't think DH (the middle one lol) was his father!! I wouldn't be surprised if DH is named on the 1895 birth cert though.
OH has ordered the birth cert, so watch this space!!
I think I've found the thing that put my off David Hutton....obviously things have changed now that we have that matching address in Horgan's Buildings/Magazine Road etc, but without that and also with the feeling DH wasn't educated enough to be JH, the other potential problem was this....
Birth reg Q2 1895 (that OH has ordered)
Then this marriage with a new middle name:
Name: David Dargin Hutton
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1916
Registration District: Cork
Volume: 5
Page Number: 69
FHL Film Number: 101263
Records on Page:
Name
Mary Elizabeth Freeman
David Dargin Hutton
David Dargan Hulton
and then this death reg in England:
Name: David Dargie Hutton
Birth Date: 4 May 1894
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1971
Age at Death: 77
Registration District: Plymouth
Volume: 7a
Page: 1884
The death reg shows a dob that's a year off for the birth reg, but it is right for the quarter. I can't find a birth reg for this David other than the David Hutten 1895 Cork one. At the moment I have not gone into this any more than I did the first time. I think when I found these entries last time round it was just at that point where I was losing the will to live with it and thought I'd come back to it later, but never did!
At least if the 1895 birth cert comes back with dob 4th May I shall be able to determine something positive!! (depending on the name of the mother I suppose!)
David Dargie Hutton appears on the UK Navy Lists on Ancestry 1941-49. (for what it's worth!)
There are also a couple of Hutton/Freeman births in Plymouth after 1916 which might possibly be his, though the surname combination isn't that uncommon.
and a child b 1916 in Cork marries in Plymouth in 1936.
The feeling DH wasn't educated enough to be JH...
David Hutton, 5, born Cork, is in the industrial school in 1901, where he would have received an education until the age of 16. Normal school leaving age in Ireland at the time was 12. Therefore, probably better educated than most young people.
True, but his signature after all that education is very poor compared with JH's flowing hand. Anyway, I'm not saying anyone has gone wrong, just pointing out what it was I found previously! Where is the birth of the man who married in Cork in 1916 and was supposed to have been born in Q2 1894? (and is he in the industrial school with his age misrecorded?!!!)
tenterfieldjulie
16-05-13, 09:18
I don't want to slow you down Merry, but we are talking about Ireland, where a huge percentage of records were destroyed.
I do hope that your mother is feeling better. Julie
I don't want to slow you down Merry, but we are talking about Ireland, where a huge percentage of records were destroyed.
I do hope that your mother is feeling better. Julie
Inc trials records, so we can't check Maggie Scannell and David Hutton via that route.
And echo Julie's words about your mum.
Any eta re the certs, btw?
Oooops - meant to post this earlier.
David Dargie Hutton wasn't Irish - he was Scottish. The National Archives have his Navy records.
David Dargie Hutton
Service number: M26543
Place of Birth: Dundee, Forfarshire
Date of Birth: 4 May 1894
Mary from Italy
16-05-13, 11:08
Well done, Shona; I was just about to look for him in Scotland when I saw your post. There's a birth on ScotlandsPeople for him in 1894, and there's a David Hutton of the right age born Dundee on the 1901 Scottish census with parents Peter and Jane.
tenterfieldjulie
16-05-13, 11:24
Wonderful work ladies.
:) David Hutton is looking more and more like being John Hamilton.
Mary from Italy
16-05-13, 11:30
I agree with Merry that it's odd about the signature, though - and IIRC she also said that DH was shorter than JCH.
Mary from Italy
16-05-13, 11:32
Merry, do you have an LDS centre nearby where you or your OH could look at the images of the prison registers? If not, I go to my local one occasionally, but it isn't open very often, unfortunately.
I can have a look for you next time it's open if you like; there are hundreds of entries, so I obviously won't have time to look at them all, but perhaps you could pick out a few that look particularly interesting and I'll check them for you.
They don't have a photocopying service, unfortunately.
Mary from Italy
16-05-13, 11:48
By the way, Merry, I did a search for Horgan's Buildings yesterday, and you may be interested to know that an illustrious former resident was Danny La Rue :)
I don't want to slow you down Merry, but we are talking about Ireland, where a huge percentage of records were destroyed.
I do hope that your mother is feeling better. Julie
I think 25 years is quite slow enough, Julie!! For info on my mum see the end of this post.
Any eta re the certs, btw?
Not yet, but it has been ordered (by fax rather than online as there was problems with filling in some of the compulsory boxes.)
Wonderful work ladies.
I agree!!
:) David Hutton is looking more and more like being John Hamilton.
I agree with that too!!
I agree with Merry that it's odd about the signature, though - and IIRC she also said that DH was shorter than JCH.
Yes, but after I'd read DH was only 5'3" I saw a second record that said he was 5'5". This was two years after the other measurement. If he managed a final growth spurt between his two spells in the army when he was in his late teens then he might well have ended up JH's height, which wasn't particularly tall.
Merry, do you have an LDS centre nearby where you or your OH could look at the images of the prison registers? If not, I go to my local one occasionally, but it isn't open very often, unfortunately.
I can have a look for you next time it's open if you like; there are hundreds of entries, so I obviously won't have time to look at them all, but perhaps you could pick out a few that look particularly interesting and I'll check them for you.
They don't have a photocopying service, unfortunately.
We do have one about ten miles away, so we can get there in the fullness of time to look at those records. Thanks for the offer though, Mary.
Mum was transferred to the cardiac unit in the hospital yesterday evening because she was having some blackouts. This morning they say she is not very well, fairly unresponsive and having some seizures (I guess she may have had some of these before, but from their explanation of what they look like, I may have mistaken for part of a panic attack.)
I will be going in soon to visit.
By the way, Merry, I did a search for Horgan's Buildings yesterday, and you may be interested to know that an illustrious former resident was Danny La Rue :)
lol Mary!!!!
Mary from Italy
16-05-13, 12:02
Oh dear, Merry, I'm sorry to hear your mum isn't doing too well. What do they think is causing the seizures?
Oh dear, Merry, I'm sorry to hear your mum isn't doing too well. What do they think is causing the seizures?
Thinking of your mum, Merry. Went through something very similar with mine - almost identical symptoms. She was diagnosed with some for of epilepsy, but thanks to the meds, she has been fine for more than a year now.
Hoping for the best for you and your mum.
I may learn more when I go back to the hospital shortly. Back later.
kiterunner
16-05-13, 13:32
Aren't the Irish prison registers on FamilySearch the same ones that are on the Irish findmypast? Has nobody been able to view the images? Sorry, I didn't realise.
And sorry to hear about your mum, Merry, I hope they can stabilise / improve her condition soon.
kiterunner
16-05-13, 13:58
The images don't give much more info than is on the transcriptions, but those records that are indexed as Margaret Hutton alias David Hutton actually show the name as Margaret Hutton with next of kin as husband David Hutton on the image. On some he is "same address", on some "no fixed" and on some "at sea".
I'm not sure whether anyone has mentioned that on one of the prison records for David Hutton alias John Hamilton alias Noel W Hamilton, his next of kin is shown as father Francis, sailor, at sea. And on another father Frank, at sea. Of course this could well just be a random name he made up with the occupation taken from his mother's ex-husband.
kiterunner
16-05-13, 14:03
And on some of the ones that are indexed as Margaret Hutton / Margaret Scannell, the next of kin is Mother Margaret Scannell at Horgan's Buildings. That is from 1905, so if she was telling the truth, we may be able to find her mother on the 1901 Irish census. But given that so many of the records say next of kin husband David, same address, when they had been divorced for years, who knows.
But the 1894 one does actually say Margaret Hutton or Scannell.
Yes, the images are on Irish FMP. I've had a look at a couple of them.
There is additional info on the images. For example:
1900
Margt Hutton, 18 previous convictions, age 30, 5ft 4in, brown hair, grey eyes, fresh complexion, 118lb, prostitute, born Cork, no address, RC, read and write, neglect of her child, seven days, released 7 July.
From this page, it looks as if the authorities were doing a bit of a round up as other women have the same occupation. However, unlike the others, she can both read and write.
Mary from Italy
16-05-13, 14:07
Aren't the Irish prison registers on FamilySearch the same ones that are on the Irish findmypast? Has nobody been able to view the images?
Oh, I hadn't realised they were on FMP!
I've just looked, and a UK FMP subscription doesn't allow you to view the images - you need an Irish FMP sub.
Anyway, I looked at one of the entries at random, because I had a few credits left from before I had s sub. I looked at one of the entries that showed Margaret/David Hutton, and as Kate guessed, she gave her husband's name as David. She also gave his address as Horgan's Buildings, like hers. The entries are quite detailed; they give the person's place of birth, physical description and occupation (hers is "prost"). And it gives their level of education, which is interesting, although I have no idea what some of the abbreviations mean. Some were "ill.", which clearly means illiterate, but Margaret's was "RW" (read and write?).
Mary from Italy
16-05-13, 14:09
There don't seem to be as many hits on FMP as there are on FS - no idea why, unless some entries are duplicated on FS.
Oh, I hadn't realised they were on FMP!
I've just looked, and a UK FMP subscription doesn't allow you to view the images - you need an Irish FMP sub.
Anyway, I looked at one of the entries at random, because I had a few credits left from before I had s sub. I looked at one of the entries that showed Margaret/David Hutton, and as Kate guessed, she gave her husband's name as David. She also gave his address as Horgan's Buildings, like hers. The entries are quite detailed; they give the person's place of birth, physical description and occupation (hers is "prost"). And it gives their level of education, which is interesting, although I have no idea what some of the abbreviations mean. Some were "ill.", which clearly means illiterate, but Margaret's was "RW" (read and write?).
Yes - RW is read and write. They same abbreviation appears on Irish census records.
Just got back from the hospital. Mum was not as bad as I feared, but not very good either. She is in accute pain much of the time.
I don't have an Irish fmp sub. Do you think it would be worth getting?
I'm on my phone and not easy to read back, so will do that a bit later. Thanks for all you are doing!
Just got back from the hospital. Mum was not as bad as I feared, but not very good either. She is in accute pain much of the time.
I don't have an Irish fmp sub. Do you think it would be worth getting?
I'm on my phone and not easy to read back, so will do that a bit later. Thanks for all you are doing!
MY OH is Irish plus I've got Irish branches on both my mum and dad's side, so I find it can be useful. A lot of it is available on FS, though.
Your poor mum. Stay strong for her.
Mary from Italy
16-05-13, 14:47
I think it probably would be worth getting at some stage, as there are so many entries, but you may be able to get some free credits before actually paying for a sub.
Have a look at this thread (not sure if the offer's still valid, though):
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=16474&highlight=credits
Don't bother using the credits to read a transcription, because it's a waste of credits; use them for the images.
Very sorry to hear your mum's in pain. Surely they can do something for it?
i will take a look at that thread and check out fmp to see what they are offering.
They gave mum a big dose of morphine whilst I was there, but I had to go before it had kicked in. I expect she will sleep once that happens.
I've been studying the various military documents relating to David Hutton.
On Ancestry, the records are all in the WW1 Pension section. You get the same series of documents coming up if you search for either David Hutton or John Hamilton.
There is a letter from The 5th Dragoon Guards in Aldershot to the Officer in command of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers which seems to confirm that David Hutton and John Hamilton are the same person:
'21 July 1914
With reference to Army Form b 123, this man states that he was 11112 David Hutton in the 2nd Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers, joined at Cork on 29 September 1911 and was discharged with ignominy from that battalion at Gravesend in November 1912. If this is correct, will you forward documents as early as possible please.'
The note was received in Dublin on 22 July 1914.
They reply:
'23 July 1914
Army Form B123 completed. Documents forwarded herewith. When returning, kindly state how the case has been disposed off. Dublin 23 July 1914.'
As far as I can make out, he first signs up to the Special Reserve of the Royal Munster Fusiliers. After about three months, he enlists for regular service with the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. He gets discharged at the end of 1912.
However, he appears to then attest with the a Leinster regiment in 1913, as Private Hamilton, but gets discharged and imprisoned because he didn't declare his past record. I guess this is when we find him in prison in Tullamore, Co Offaly (King's County as was).
He is also imprisoned in Dublin that year after being charged with loitering (he was of no fixed address).
His next attempt is to join the Dragoon Guards (he seems to be in Dunbar, Scotland), but gets found out again for six months with one month remitted. I estimate he was released in Dec 1914.
In Dec 1914, John Hamilton successfully enlists with the Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery.
Following the war, his medals are forfeited, apparently because he never served in France. But it could well have been because of his criminal activities in the 1920s or that his past caught up with him one more time.
I'll study the records in more detail and write it all up in a timeline.
Shona I did read your last post last night, so sorry I didn't write back before.
Thank you so much for going through all the army papers which I've not had the time to address at all. Its really good of you to collate al the info like that and must have taken you ages.
I'm so sure its the right man, but cant wait for the BC to arrive - imagine that after al these years!!! Maybe there is hope for Peter Harrison - though it might have been easier if he had been in trouble with the police etc!!
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this long thread. I wil let you know the minute the cert arrives!
I wil let you know the minute the cert arrives!
Yes, please.
Merry, I've really enjoyed the past few days researching all this.
In fact, it was a medal record card that sparked off my interest (OH edit: delete interest and insert obsession) in family history and genealogy.
I chanced upon a medal record card for someone whose name implied they were related. My uncle confirmed that the person was my great-uncle. Off I went to Kew - a total novice. The chap next to me showed me how to use the machine and explained that most of the records were destroyed. Within five minutes, though, I had found my great-uncle's records. After that, I started to research all the men on village war memorial...and then the next village...Well, you know how it goes!
The time-line for DH's military service is well underway. I'm busy for the next three days (and have a five-hour drive ahead of me today, too), so may be next week before I finish it.
Aye, after all these years, I still have a passion for military records. :):):)
Merry, this thread is riveting and I've had hardly a single disposable minute to indulge my appetite for it because we're in the throes of painfully moving piece by piece from upstairs over the garage to the new wing downstairs. Know that I am thinking of you and your mum, though. Take care.
The Silver Ward Badge states that he served with the '6B Res Bde' of the RFA.
The 6B Reserve Brigade were a home-based unit based at Piershill Barracks in Edinburgh.
What do we think to the enlistment and discharge dates? They haven't been disputed have they?
I don't think we can say anything about the enlistment date, but the discharge date of 3 Dec 1917 I can check a little.......I will have to look at his bundle of letters - I thought some of them were written after that, but I may well be wrong - they were certainly all written whilst he was in the army.
OH pointed out to me that several of JH's letters were written from Piershill Barracks (I thought the name sounded familiar!)
JH was still in the army after Dec 1917 as some of the letters were written the following year, so I don't know what to make of the discharge date? Maybe it's not that important at the moment, but I thought I should answer your question, Shona!
Thanks, Merry - that snippet has really helped.
As a little break from reading through all of David Hutton/John Hamilton's military papers (reckon I've got it all in order now and worked out what happened to him), I've been trying to track down David/John's sisters - who are being very elusive. They could, of course, be half-sisters of David Hutton in Perth if he remarried after divorcing Maggie. Has anyone checked this?
Anyway, I've been going through the images for Maggie Hutton's prison records on Find my Past Ireland to see if I can guess when she might have been pregnant based on her weight. Oh, the odd things that we do in pursuit of this hobby!
Nov 1894 - 130lb
Jan 1895 - 135lb
David Hutton was born Ap/May/June quarter 1895.
July 1898 - 108lb
May 1898 - 105lb (107lb)
Aug 1898 - 107lb (110lb)
Nov 1899 - 122lb
April 1900 - 126lb
May 1900 - 124lb (126lb)
July 1900 - 118lb
Aug 1901 - 107lb
Sept 1901 - 109lb
Jan 1902 - 128lb
May 1902 - 114lb
May be a birth sometime between Jan 1902 and May 1902 (she is Cork at this point)?
Aug 1902 - 112lb (114lb)
Sept 1902 - 113lb
Oct 1902 - 118lb (120lb)
Nov 1902 - 122lb (124lb)
Feb 1903 - 122lb (128lb)
May 1903 - 120lb (122lb)
Aug 1903 - 123lb (124lb)
Oct 1903 - 116lb (120lb)
Jan 1904 - 124lb
April 1904 - 124lb
May 1904 - 120lb
July 1904 - 124lb (126lb)
Feb 1905 - 110lb
March 1905 - 111lb
April 1905 - 114lb
May 1905 - 116lb
June 1905 - 118lb (119lb)
Sept 1905 - 112lb
Oct 1905 - 113lb (114lb)
Nov 1905 - 117lb
Dec 1905 -120lb
Jan 1906 - 119lb (121lb)
April 1911 - 126lb
Maggie Hutton appears on the 1911 census in Co Carlow.
March 1912 - 135lb
As she got to 135lb when pregnant with David, this looks good. Will try to see if there are any Hutton births in Dublin around this time.
Sept 1916 - 116lb
March 1917 - 110lb
Feb 1918 - 102lb
June 1919 - 106lb
4 Aug 1919 102lb
15 Aug 1919 104lb
Then again, she may just be a yo-yo dieter!
BINGO!
First Name: Kathleen
Last Name: Hutton
Year: 1913
Registered Quarter/Year: Apr - Jun 1913
Registration District: Dublin North
Volume: 2
Page: 496
Country: Ireland
Record set: Irish Births 1864-1958
Gosh well done. We are waiting for the cert to arrive before investing in the fmp sub!
If that Katheen is correct, then JH would hardly have known her, so if there was another sister I would have expected her to be significantly older, esp if its true that OH's nan met the sister in London in the early 1920s before she went abroad. (We always imagined the emigrating sister was married before she went)
Gosh well done. We are waiting for the cert to arrive before investing in the fmp sub!
If that Katheen is correct, then JH would hardly have known her, so if there was another sister I would have expected her to be significantly older, esp if its true that OH's nan met the sister in London in the early 1920s before she went abroad. (We always imagined the emigrating sister was married before she went)
To find the needle in the haystack, you have to clutch at a lot of straws!
Absolutely! Like when I searched 125,000 of the 131,000 entries for St Pancras 1841 census on fiche to find OH's gg-grandfather!
Sorry, I forgot to say Thank You :p :D
Mary from Italy
18-05-13, 19:48
Brilliant, Shona!
Mary from Italy
18-05-13, 19:53
Jan 1902 - 128lb
May 1902 - 114lb
May be a birth sometime between Jan 1902 and May 1902 (she is Cork at this point)?
As a matter of interest, there was a Kathleen Scannell born in Cork in April-June 1902.
As a matter of interest, there was a Kathleen Scannell born in Cork in April-June 1902.
I saw that one, but she seems to be one of many children of Mrs Margaret Scannell aged 48 in 1911.
From Maggie Hutton's prison records:
Next of Kin:
Jan 1902 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
April 1902 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
May 1902 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
Sept 1902 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
Oct 1902 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
Nov 1902 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
Feb 1903 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
May 1903 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
Aug 1903 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
Oct 1903 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
Jan 1904 - Husband, James, at sea
April 1904 - Mother, Margaret Scannell
May 1904 - Husband, James Cook
July 1904 - Husband, James Cook
Feb 1905 - Husband, David
March 1905 - Husband, David
April 1905 - Husband, David at sea
May 1905 - Husband, David
June 1905 - Husband, David
Nov 1905 - Husband, David Hutton
Sept 1905 - Husband, David
Jan 1906 - Husband, David
April 1911 - Sister, Nora Cunningham
1918 - Husband, David at sea
June 1919 - Brother, Patrick Scannell
Kite found this:
There is also an Honora Scannell baptised 25 Feb 1872, parents Pat Scannell and Margaret Holmes.
I reckon Honora is the Nora Cunningham named as next of kin.
kiterunner
19-05-13, 09:45
Well done, Shona.
So this is them in 1901:
Residents of a house 5 in Rope Walk (Cork Urban No. 4, Cork)
Cunningham Thomas 29 Male Head of Family Roman Catholic
Cunningham Hanora 27 Female Wife Roman Catholic
Cunningham Bridget 5 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
Cunningham Margaret 3 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
Cunningham Mary 2 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
Cunningham Hanna Female Daughter Roman Catholic
Scannel Margaret 67 Female Mother in Law Roman Catholic
kiterunner
19-05-13, 09:53
And I think this is them in 1911:
Residents of a house 13 in Gurteenaspig (Bishopstown, Cork)
Cuningham Thomas 38 Male Head of Family Catholic Roman
Cuningham Norah 30 Female Wife Catholic Roman
Cuningham Bridget 14 Female Daughter Catholic Roman
Cuningham Josephine 13 Female Daughter Catholic Roman
Cuningham May 12 Female Daughter Catholic Roman
Cuningham Hanah 10 Female Daughter Catholic Roman
Cuningham James 9 Male Son Catholic Roman
Cuningham Norah 8 Female Daughter Catholic Roman
Cuningham Tersa 5 Female Daughter Catholic Roman
Cuningham John Joe 3 Male Son Catholic Roman
Cuningham Kathleen Female Daughter Catholic Roman
Married 15 years, 10 children, 9 living.
Thank you Shona and Kate, very much.
Shona, is there going to be any point in me paying £32 for these prison records, do you think? Or, will it be worth having the FMP sub for other stuff re this family?
kiterunner
19-05-13, 09:58
FMP Ireland is unlikely to have anything other than prison records to help with this family in my experience. Most of the other stuff they have is going to be a higher social scale.
kiterunner
19-05-13, 10:03
Sorry, should have said, apart from the BMD indexes, but those are on FamilySearch and ancestry too.
Sorry, should have said, apart from the BMD indexes, but those are on FamilySearch and ancestry too.
Thanks Kate.
I've seen the marriage of Nora and the death of Margaret Scannell sr in the BMD records. If the birth cert still works out for DH the marriage for Nora may well confirm whether dad was Bart or Pat!!
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