FMP help please [Archive] - Page 2 - Genealogists' Forum

Shona

20-05-13, 17:24

Some thoughts to tide us over until David Hutton's birth cert arrives.

What's the odds, though, of the father's name not being recorded?

In September 1893, David Hutton, second mate of the Glencova sails out of Dundee for yet another foreign voyage - he had been back in Dundee for just four weeks after having been at sea for the previous 12 months.

David's wife, Maggie, takes to the drink (or had taken to the drink?) and gets caught in bed with the postman, William Browne, in January 1894, according to the newspaper reports.

Was she turfed out once she was found with the postman or stick around in Dundee?

She would have conceived David Hutton at the end of July that year, but we don't know whether she was in Scotland or Cork at the time. It also looks as if David Hutton was still at sea at the time.

Maggie was in Cork in September 1894 - a servant of no fixed address, with two previous convictions (can't find these two convictions), Maggie found guilty of being a rogue and a vagabond and sent to jail.

In November 1894, she was still of no fixed abode, but was recorded as a prostitute for the first time.

Shona

20-05-13, 17:35

1892 Dundee Street Directory:

David Hutton, 186 Ferry Road, timekeeper, Dundee Shipbuilding Company.

The Friends of Dundee Council Archives website has transcriptions of the 1882 and 1896 directories - plus lots more.

http://www.fdca.org.uk/index.html

David Hutton senior was born on 16 Feb 1869 in Montrose. At the age of 16, in 1885, he becomes an apprentice seaman.

kiterunner

20-05-13, 17:45

Shona

20-05-13, 17:49

She may have named David Hutton as the father even if he wasn't - given the number of times she names him as her next of kin on the prison records!

And she did name her son David, too.

Merry

20-05-13, 18:24

My thoughts are that the middle David isn't the father of Margaret's son, but I think there's a 70:30 chance she will have named him as the father.

Merry

20-05-13, 18:51

Maggie was in Cork in September 1894 - a servant of no fixed address, with two previous convictions (can't find these two convictions), Maggie found guilty of being a rogue and a vagabond and sent to jail.

In November 1894, she was still of no fixed abode, but was recorded as a prostitute for the first time.

What about this one? (can't find another)

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMSK-QYW

kiterunner

20-05-13, 19:00

KiwiChris

20-05-13, 19:05

I imagine that in jail she at least got a dry room, a bed to sleep in and food, which may not have been the case when her husband and breadwinner was away at sea.

Following this thread with interest BTW! :D

Merry

20-05-13, 19:20

Thanks Kate. I don't know if the later records had hair colour. Would you mind having a look at one to see?

I feel that's her though.

Shona

20-05-13, 19:39

This is the info from that one, Merry:
5'4", fair hair, grey eyes, fresh complexion, 12 st 1 lb - 13 st 1 lb, born Cork, last residence none, occupation servant, RC, read and write, found wandering abroad, 2 c mos, sentence expired 28 Jan 1889. Queenstown 29 Nov 88.

Seems a bit harsh to get 2 months for "wandering abroad" - what did that mean?

Edit - looks as though it means much the same as being a rogue and vagabond.

Is she really that hefty? Her weight seems to be about 8-9 stone in the other records (except for when she seems to be pregnant). Could the weight be 121Lb on entry to prison and then 131lb on leaving, If that's the case, then perhaps she was pregnant at 18.

The hair and eye colour ties in with the later records.

kiterunner

20-05-13, 21:51

Is she really that hefty? Her weight seems to be about 8-9 stone in the other records (except for when she seems to be pregnant). Could the weight be 121Lb on entry to prison and then 131lb on leaving, If that's the case, then perhaps she was pregnant at 18.

Yes, you're right, Shona, it is 121-131 lb. Sorry for the mixup!

kiterunner

20-05-13, 21:57

Thanks Kate. I don't know if the later records had hair colour. Would you mind having a look at one to see?

I feel that's her though.
1894 - hair Fair, eyes Grey, complexion Fresh, 5'4", weight 122 lbs. This is the one where she was Margaret Hutton or Scannell, age 24, servant, rogue & vagabond, and the details do match with that earlier one.
1904 - hair Br, eyes Hazel.
1905 - hair Aub, eyes Hazel.

Merry

20-05-13, 22:11

lol! Thanks for doing that, Kate!

She obviously had access to hair dye and coloured contacts!! I still think they are all her though.

Merry

20-05-13, 22:22

Given there are only two birth regs for Bartholomew Scannell in the Irish registrations on Ancestry, is it only a coincidence one of then is the same Q as Margaret was released from prison, having put on weight? (The other Bart is her brother Patrick's son). The birth is in Newcastle district which seems to cover parts of County Limerick.

Name: Bartholemew Scannell
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1889
Registration District: Newcastle
Volume: 5
Page: 438
FHL Film Number: 101062

There are plenty of other registrations that could have been a child of Margaret's around the same time. The above Bart doesn't seem to appear anywhere else so far.

Mary from Italy

20-05-13, 22:34

Can't see him on the censuses, or a death.

Merry

21-05-13, 06:12

Me neither.

Is there a good site for detailing the areas covered by Irish reg districts?

Can someone explain what a townland is?

Shona

21-05-13, 06:26

A townland is the smallest geographical/administrative unit of land in Ireland.

Shona

21-05-13, 06:40

Some websites to help.

http://www.gov.ie/en/essays/genealogy.html

http://www.familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ireland_Civil_Registration

http://genealogyresearch.org.uk/IRL_RegistrationDistricts1871.pdf

Shona

21-05-13, 07:05

1894 - hair Fair, eyes Grey, complexion Fresh, 5'4", weight 122 lbs. This is the one where she was Margaret Hutton or Scannell, age 24, servant, rogue & vagabond, and the details do match with that earlier one.
1904 - hair Br, eyes Hazel.
1905 - hair Aub, eyes Hazel.

1896 - Fair, grey, fresh
1901 - Fair, grey, fresh

Shona

21-05-13, 07:42

What about this one? (can't find another)

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMSK-QYW

Seems as if the authorities were calling her a prostitute in 1888. More detail of the above offence:

'Margaret Scannell
Common Prostitute
Vagrant
Without a fixed residence

The defendant, a vagrant and common prostitute, without a fixed or other residence, at Queenstown on the night of 28th Nov 88, wandering abroad, lodged in the open air, had no visible means of subsistence and did not give a good account of herself.

Two months in HM prison females, Cork, with HL.'

Merry

21-05-13, 07:51

Merry

21-05-13, 08:14

Seems as if the authorities were calling her a prostitute in 1888. More detail of the above offence:

'Margaret Scannell
Common Prostitute
Vagrant
Without a fixed residence

The defendant, a vagrant and common prostitute, without a fixed or other residence, at Queenstown on the night of 28th Nov 88, wandering abroad, lodged in the open air, had no visible means of subsistence and did not give a good account of herself.

Two months in HM prison females, Cork, with HL.'

I feel quite sorry for her. I wonder what happened that she found herself in this position when her brother and sister seem to have had ordinary lives?

Until seeing she was in trouble before she went to Scotland I had wondered if her father-in-law had caused her some problems whilst she was living with him whilst her husband went to sea and these were the circumstances that drove her to drink. Seems less likely now.

What a pity the prisons/police didn't take photos of Margaret or David (we could have compared one of David with the one we have of JH!).

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 09:27

I found an interesting newspaper cutting yesterday, although I can't imagine that it relates to this Maggie Scannell:

Saturday 29 April 1893

"HORGAN-SCANNELL.-At the bride's residence (Friars' Walk), on the 25th inst., John Horgan, Manager, Opera House, Cork, to Maggie Scannell, both of the city of Cork.

She married David Hutton as Scannell, anyway.

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 09:30

I do wonder how she got together with David Hutton - if she was just a prostitute he picked up in the streets after a drunken night out when he got off his ship, you wouldn't think he'd take her home to meet his parents.

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 09:32

I wouldn't be surprised if they did take photos - Australian prisons certainly did, and they're on Ancestry.

Shona

21-05-13, 09:43

I feel quite sorry for her. I wonder what happened that she found herself in this position when her brother and sister seem to have had ordinary lives?

Increasingly, I feel sorry for Maggie, too. The big difference, I reckon, is that it would seem she got pregnant when she was a teenager.

She was, unlike the majority who were arrested, literate. This, I feel, corroborates JH's story of a black sheep in a respectable middle-class family, but with Maggie in that role, not him. However, as the son of a woman labelled as a prostitute, he may have inherited the label!

Did Maggie's respectable family disowned their pregnant daughter? If they did, it may explain why she ended up homeless and sleeping rough with no means of subsistence.

Looking at the social and political history of Cork at the time, there was considerable pressure on the poor law guardians to reduce outdoor relief as well as the number of homeless people using the workhouse as somewhere to sleep for the night.

Some background in these links.

http://www.esrc.ac.uk/my-esrc/grants/RES-062-23-0181/outputs/Download/154b4aae-62ba-43c2-ae1b-a90715ed76f2

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vOB_NKVva8oC&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133&dq=prostitution+in+cork+1890s&source=bl&ots=xelQeqeARZ&sig=NC5gTAXFDxHWd_mpopAPEwMCDK0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qjKbUbe-Ccec0QWRsICACA&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCTgK

Just how did Maggie meet visiting mariner, David Hutton? Not at church, that's for sure! He takes her to Scotland, marries her and promptly goes to sea leaving her with her in-laws.

The divorce. This part of Scotland was fiercely anti-Catholic. David 'shipyard timekeeper' Hutton may have been none to pleased when his son returned from sea with a Catholic lass in tow. Although I can't confirm this yet, there are indications that Maggie's father-in-law was involved in local politics.

Another reason why Maggie's life took a such a different route from her siblings is that, having got pregnant as a teenager (we think, given her weight and weight increase in 1888), she returns to Cork having been divorced for adultery.

The case was reported in both the Glasgow and Edinburgh newspapers ('A Sailor's Unworthy Wife') in addition to the local Dundee papers. The news must have reached Cork.

The stigma of a Catholic girl being divorced would have been extreme.

On the one hand, she may have been a total crook, but on the other hand, just a young girl with a tarnished reputation who was shunned by 'her people' and who slipped through the net because of cuts in relief.

I find Maggie's life story sad rather than scandalous.

Shona

21-05-13, 09:51

I wouldn't be surprised if they did take photos - Australian prisons certainly did, and they're on Ancestry.

Sadly, many Cork records where destroyed in the War of Independence and subsequent Civil War.

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 09:55

I'm not sure how respectable Maggie's family was. Have you had a chance to look at the images for the Bartholomew Scannell prison records? Unfortunately I'm out of FMP credits, so I can't check them.

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 09:56

Sadly, many Cork records where destroyed in the War of Independence and subsequent Civil War.

Yes, I realise that, but I thought that if the prison records we've been looking at survived, the photos may have done too.

Shona

21-05-13, 10:00

Yes, I realise that, but I thought that if the prison records we've been looking at survived, the photos may have done too.

Good point, Mary.

In the past, I've looked at some pix of female prisoners in Mountjoy in Dublin (my OH's great-gran was in the same profession as Merry's OH's great-gran!). Can't recall where I found them now.

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 10:10

Might be worth e-mailing whatever the Cork equivalent of the Records Office is.

kiterunner

21-05-13, 10:11

I'm not sure how respectable Maggie's family was. Have you had a chance to look at the images for the Bartholomew Scannell prison records? Unfortunately I'm out of FMP credits, so I can't check them.

There is a Bartholomew Scannell sentenced to 5 years for sheep stealing 26 Jun 1863, in Cork, age 45, 5'4", blue eyes, brown hair, fresh complexion, married, has 2 children, lost almost all his front teeth, also cut mark over right ear, can't read or write, labourer, RC, believed to be his first offence. Conduct in gaol good.

kiterunner

21-05-13, 10:14

In post #145 are some baptisms of children of Bartholomew Scannell and Margaret Holmes, including Johanna in Dec 1863 and Patrick in 1866. Not sure whether this definitely rules out the Bartholomew who was sentenced to 5 years in 1863 though.

Merry

21-05-13, 11:16

There is a Bartholomew Scannell sentenced to 5 years for sheep stealing 26 Jun 1863, in Cork, age 45, 5'4", blue eyes, brown hair, fresh complexion, married, has 2 children, lost almost all his front teeth, also cut mark over right ear, can't read or write, labourer, RC, believed to be his first offence. Conduct in gaol good.

Given the age of Margaret's mother in 1901 I think it's quite likely Margaret's father is the one who died in 1872 and was probably baptised in 1839. Dying in 1872 would fit well with his wife having no further children despite being of child bearing age.

The man you mention, Kate, could be the 1839 man's father, as he was also Bartholomew (1839 bap record). If he was born 1818ish I suppose he could be the man whose death was registered in 1887 aged 65 with a couple of years knocked off his age.

On the other hand, perhaps Margaret senr (Holmes) was married to an older man (the sheep stealer) explaining why he only had two children at the age of 45. This doesn't seem very likely though as the first child we have for Bart and Margaret (Holmes) was in 1863 but not until the end of the year.

Shona

21-05-13, 11:34

Merry

21-05-13, 11:38

If the birth cert doesn't throw any spanners in the works when it comes (not sure how it could, really) then I will be getting the birth certs for Margaret and her siblings and the marriage certs for Honora and Patrick to see (amongst other things, obviously) what they say about their father - supposed mercantile clerk.

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 11:39

Who's the Bartholomew Seward aka Scannell, born c. 1821, in prison in Cork in 1851?

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 11:40

Shona

21-05-13, 11:43

Merry, I noticed your OH has summarised this thread on Roots Chat.

Merry

21-05-13, 11:51

Yes, I saw that too Shona (he didn't tell me!) - I see he plugged this site and didn't say it was his own research (this time :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:)

Merry

21-05-13, 11:53

Mary, I would love to go to Ireland in the summer (never been there), but I can just see the kids faces! lol They used to be OK with holidays in graveyards etc, but not now!!!

Merry

21-05-13, 12:26

Good point, Mary.

In the past, I've looked at some pix of female prisoners in Mountjoy in Dublin (my OH's great-gran was in the same profession as Merry's OH's great-gran!). Can't recall where I found them now.

I googled and found some images of Mountjoy (ironically named place!) prisoners which are hosted on the National Archives of Ireland website, but I couldn't see how to search or where to look for other images.

Have to go off to the hospital now.

Shona

21-05-13, 14:18

1871 Cork Directory

Scannell, JD and sons, veterinary est, 37 Warren Place
Scannell, M and A, dress and mantle makers, 38 Douglas Street
Scannell, John, carpenter, 57 Friars Walk
Scannell, John, carpenter, 17 Pine Walk, Camden Quay
Scannell, John, sculptor, etc, Union Quay
Scannell, Mary, Cottage Row, Watercouse Road
Scannell, Patrick J, marble works, 10 and 13 Douglas Street
Scannell, Rev Thomas, 21 Wellington Road
Scannell, Thomas J, solicitor, 13 Marlborough Street
Scannell, Timothy, accountant, 48 Watercourse Road
Scannell, Timothy, apothecary, 90 Grand Parade
Scannell, Timothy, victualler, 19 North Main Street

No sign of any sheep thieves...

tenterfieldjulie

21-05-13, 14:25

Note Well --- Usually ... those in jail don't have money !!

Merry

21-05-13, 14:26

lol I spent ages looking through the various street directories without finding anything helpful.

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 14:32

There's a noticeable absence of mercantile clerks.

tenterfieldjulie

21-05-13, 14:41

Not poor..

ElizabethHerts

21-05-13, 14:55

I've been following this thread with interest from afar the past few days - precisely, from Bologna! Just got in, and I'm glad to see it's all coming together well. I hope the birth certificate arrives soon, Merry.

We used to go to Ireland for our summer holidays every August - from when I was 4 to when I was 16, with just a few gaps here and there when my Mum decided to take my sister and me somewhere a little bit warmer! I well remember Cork from many visits there, and it was very dead on some occasions, although no. 2 daughter visited a couple of years ago and I believe it is much more lively now! Merry, you will have to work how to sell the holiday to the children.:)

Mary from Italy

21-05-13, 15:09

How was Bologna, Elizabeth? The weather up here's been absolutely dreadful.

ElizabethHerts

21-05-13, 15:16

It was very pleasant, Mary. Some rain overnight, but none during the day, and temperatures during the day of between 20 and 23 degrees. Just right for sightseeing, and we were able to eat outside at lunch time.

We found it a lovely city. We could walk everywhere and there was so much to see.

The day we arrived (THursday) there had been thunderstorms, but they had cleared by the time we arrived at 6 pm.

I hope the weather is improving for you now.

Shona

21-05-13, 15:51

There's a noticeable absence of mercantile clerks.

As a busy port, there would have been a lot of clerks working with the various merchants, but would they be recorded?

It's an odd occupation for Maggie to conjure up if her father wasn't some sort of clerk. She does seem to have been reasonably truthful when stating the names of next of kin in her prison records (but who was the James Cook named as a husband?).

Certainly, the directories show that a couple of the Scannell branches were very respectable.

kiterunner

21-05-13, 22:07

Not sure whether anyone has posted this yet - a likely 1901 census entry for Margaret's brother Patrick:
Residents of a house 4.2 in Gillahaugh Cottages (Cork Urban No. 5, Cork)
Patrick Scannell H Family RC Read & Write 30 M Grocers Porter Unempld Married City Cork
Bridget Scannell Wife RC Read & Write 29 F Housekeeper Married City Cork
Maggie Scannell Daughter RC Read & Write 9 F Scholar City Cork
Bartholmew Scannell Son RC Read & Write 8 M Scholar City Cork
James Scannell Son RC Cannot Read Write 6 M Scholar City Cork
Patrick Scannell Son RC - 9 months M City Cork

And in 1911:
Residents of a house 31 in Picketts Lane (Cork No. 5 Urban, Cork)
Patrick Scannell Head of family Roman Catholic Read & Write 44 Packer and Skilled Labourer Married Cork City
Bridget Scannell Wife Roman Catholic Read & Write 38 Married 20 years 9 children 5 living Do
Bartholomew Scannell Son Roman Catholic Read & Write 17 Shop Porter Single Do
James Scannell Son Roman Catholic Read & Write 15 Shop Porter Single Do
Daniel Scannell Son Roman Catholic Cannot Read or Write 4 Scholar Do
Mary Margaret Scannell Daughter Roman Catholic Read & Write 18 Single Do
Hannah Scannell Daughter Roman Catholic Cannot Read or Write 1 Do

tenterfieldjulie

21-05-13, 22:13

Merry, I thought I'd post this .. it might give you a little idea of some of the different forces in Cork and Cobh to the rest of Ireland.

After I visited Cobh in 2009 I wrote - Cobh, pronounced Cove formerly called Queenstown - is where the Titanic sailed from and many of the famine and convict ships .. Overlooking the harbour is a statue to Annie Moore (and her brothers) who was the first person to be admitted to the US in 1892 through the new immigration centre at Ellis Island New York. There is a very evocative song about her and her entrance America.

Some notes taken from Wiki -
Cobh known from 1850 until 1920 as Queenstown, is a popular tourist seaport town on the south coast of County Cork, Ireland. Cobh is on the south side of Great Island in Cork Harbour and almost 100,000 cruise liner passengers and crew arrive in the town each year when their ships berth right in the centre of the town at Ireland's only dedicated Cruise Terminal. The town has remained virtually unchanged since RMS Titanic departed from Cork Harbour in 1912.
The port, which has had several Irish-language names, was first called "Cove" ("The Cove of Cork") in 1750. This remained the town's name until 1920, when it was renamed Cobh by the new authorities of the Irish Free State.
The village on the island was known as Ballyvoloon, overlooking "The Cove" and this was first referred to as Cove village in 1750 by Smith the historian who said "it was inhabited by seamen and revenue officials".
Cove underwent rapid development in the early 19th century assisted by world events. Due to its naturally protected harbour Cobh has historically been important as a tactical base for naval military bases. For instance, Cobh was of major tactical military importance as a naval base during the Napoleonic wars between France and England. Today, the Irish Naval Service is based on Haulbowline island facing Cobh
The Napoleonic Wars meant the town became a British Naval port with its own admiral and much of the present day buildings were built. The cessation of hostilities dented its prosperity for a time but it became widely known as a health resort and many convalescents came to Cove to avail of its temperate climate.
One of the major transatlantic Irish ports, Cobh was the departure point for 2.5 million of the six million Irish people who emigrated to North America between 1848 and 1950. On 11 April 1912 Queenstown was the final port of call for the RMS Titanic as she set out across the Atlantic on her ill-fated maiden voyage
Cobh was also a major embarkation port for men, women and children who were deported to penal colonies such as Australia. The records of such deportations can be found in the ship log books in the Cobh Museum. Julie
It is the most beautiful place .. siggh .. Would I like to go back? .. yes please ..

tenterfieldjulie

21-05-13, 22:37

If you love Gardens this is a place to love near Cork .. Garnish Island (Ilnacullin) is located in the sheltered harbour of Glengarriff in Bantry Bay. Garnish is world renowned for its gardens .. and on the ferry ride across the kids would see the seals basking on the rocks, including some rare white ones .. I have some stunning photos some where!! For the kids I see that there is Fota Island Animal Park (75 acres) the first thing I saw on their site was a kangaroo .. Cheers Julie .. Pray for sunshine !!

Mary from Italy

22-05-13, 00:28

Just in case it turns out to be relevant, a Patrick Scannell, son of Bartholomew and Margaret, died in the Liverpool (Sydney) district of Australia in 1910.

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/IndexSearch?form=IndexingSearch&cgiurl=%2Fcgi-bin%2FIndex%2FIndexingBirth.cgi&sname=scannell&gname=&fname=bartholomew&mname=margaret&event=deaths&frange=1800&trange=1982&place=&SessionID=39793345&x=0&y=0

There are a number of references in the newspapers to people of that name, but I'm not sure which one, if any, is him:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=%22patrick+scannell%22&sortby=dateAsc

Merry

22-05-13, 06:08

In England a Bartholomew would be quite rare - I don't have any on my tree, but in Ireland it's not an uncommon name :(

Just makes me think of Eric Morcambe!

Merry

22-05-13, 06:11

Thanks for your posts, Julie and Mary!

Julie - I can just see me telling kids we are going to some gardens! lol (I would just wear some ear plugs and carry on!)

The animal park would be better, but son is very allergic to horse dander, so would have t0 be careful - he hasn't been tested for kangaroo!!!! :d:d:d

Shona

22-05-13, 09:05

Just adding this into the mix...Have seen some Scannell-Hannefin trees on Ancestry - Honoria Hannefin is one of the names mentioned.

Hannefin is Irish in origin, but it does look Scandinavian. A poss for the origin of the story of a Norwegian connection?

Merry

22-05-13, 13:13

Just received the photocopy of the birth registration for David Hutton and as my better half is visiting her mother in hospital I thought it my duty to post the contents to you immediately in her absence:

BIRTHS Registered in the District of No 6 in the Union of Cork in the County of the City of Cork

Date & Place of Birth - 1895 April 27th - Lying in Hospital
Name (if any) - David
Sex - M
Name & Surname & Dwelling-place of Father - David Hutton St Finbarrs
Name & Surname & Maiden Surname of Mother - Margaret Hutton formerly Scannell
Rank or Profession of Father - Tailor (sic - yes it probably should have said Sailor)
Signature, Qualification & Residence of Informant - Ellen Roche Occupier Lying in Hospital
When Registered - June 27th 1895
Signature of Registrar - (looks like) P?? Fitton Assistant Registrar

I really think that the occupation of Tailor should have been Sailor and as it was registered by somebody other than the mother then I expect the informant misread what she had written down.

kiterunner

22-05-13, 13:21

Interesting that the date of registration is 2 months after the birth. Apparently you get 3 months to register a birth in Ireland nowadays; I wonder if it was the same then, or 6 weeks like it is in England?

Shona

22-05-13, 13:22

The date ties in with John Hamilton's birth, doesn't it?

Shona

22-05-13, 13:24

On one of his military papers, David Hutton says that he was born in St Finbarr.

kiterunner

22-05-13, 13:29

The date ties in with John Hamilton's birth, doesn't it?

It says on another thread that his date of birth was 29th April 1895, so very close.

ElizabethHerts

22-05-13, 13:32

It all seems to be coming together well.
I wonder if John/David had a copy of his own birth certificate, or whether he was going by what (he thought) he remembered?

Shona

22-05-13, 13:32

The Lying-In Hospital was established to help poor women. In 1881, it was located in Nile Street. Link to 1881 Cork directory,

http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/places/streetandtradedirectories/1881slatersdirectorycorkcityandcounty/1881publicinstitutionsdirectory/1881_PublicInstitutions.pdf

Shona

22-05-13, 13:37

Thank you, Merry's OH for posting the info. It must feel strange to see the birth reg after 25 years of searching.

Merry

22-05-13, 13:40

The birth date recorded on his Merchant Navy record card is 29th April 1895. Still the 27th is close enough for me.

Elizabeth, I too wondered whether he had a birth certificate. The thing that has puzzled me for ages is how on earth did he prove his age when he got to 65 and wanted to draw the old age pension. I remember my grandmother (JH's wife) had to send them her birth certificate.

Merry

22-05-13, 13:48

Yes it is strange Shona. After 25 years I still feel slightly uneasy about it, in spite of the overwhelming evidence, but that is just me. I would really liked to have seen the signed statement of admission that was quoted in the service records but there again you can't have everything. I wonder if there are any records of disciplinary proceedings for service personnel like DH/JH.

tenterfieldjulie

22-05-13, 13:51

Maybe he had someone alter his birth certificate .. Hutton to Hamilton - ut to amil

kiterunner

22-05-13, 13:51

Yes it is strange Shona. After 25 years I still feel slightly uneasy about it, in spite of the overwhelming evidence, but that is just me.

The Dundee connection settled it for me.

kiterunner

22-05-13, 13:52

Maybe he had someone alter his birth certificate .. Hutton to Hamilton - ut to amil

And David to John?!

ElizabethHerts

22-05-13, 13:53

The Dundee connection settled it for me.

Me too, Kate. After all, how many coincidences can there be?

tenterfieldjulie

22-05-13, 13:55

Yes that would be harder, but not taking up a lot more space .. Of course it would depend on how carefully birth records were checked. Often times they didn't check ages of boys who were obviously under age.

Mary from Italy

22-05-13, 14:00

Not sure about disciplinary records; I have a WWI court-martial record for an Australian ancestor who was tried in the UK, where he was stationed at the time, but I got it through the Aus archives.

I should think UK disciplinary records may well have survived, and might be at Kew. Maybe Ann Swabey will know.

I would also try the Irish archives to see if they have anything else, including photos.

As far as the date of birth goes, I have one very dysfunctional family in my tree, and I've been told by living descendants that the children born in the 1880s, had no idea when their birthdays were, even as adults, so a 2-day difference may not be anything to worry about, although it's a pity the date isn't exact.

tenterfieldjulie

22-05-13, 14:09

I am sure that many of the Irish didn't know when they were born. They were too busy trying to survive. It was difficult enough to feed their families, they wouldn't have had a special day for birthdays. Especially with big families. They were more likely to celebrate a Saints day. I know Peter's grandfather in Aus, wrote back to his brother .. When were you born? I know I am older than you.
Another friend's father in law wrote one age on his marriage cert and then few years later said another age. His wife said but you were only a year older than me when we married and now you are three.. When she finally found his records, at 11 years of age his parents had died and he was being brought up by his grandmother and working.

Merry

22-05-13, 14:11

Oh I agree, the Dundee connection does make it all look most probable, even the "Timekeeper" is good enough to replace "Harbour Master" for me. After all, it was my grandmother who told me these things about him and after so many years I doubt she remembered it all that well.
The other conundrum is why did he talk about his Scottish father not changing his decision in the letter to my grandmother. Surely he wouldn't have been there in Cork when he went to visit his people. Unless, of course, it was all a load of baloney!

Shona

22-05-13, 14:12

What an amazing story, though. John Hamilton, aka, David Hutton, may have changed his name, but he didn't invent a whole back story. The following has turned out to be true...or almost true (hardly surprising after the passage of time).

2) Mum was from Cork.
3) Mum met a Scottish man in Cork.
4) Mum and the Scottish man married in Dundee.
5) He was born in Cork in 1895.
6) A connection with Dundee harbour - turned out to be the grandfather not the father and a timekeeper and not a harbour master.

Apart from the Dundee connection which was a clincher, the military papers indicated that David Hutton was going by the name John Hamilton before the outbreak of World War 1.

Oh, and all the Horgan's Road connections.

kiterunner

22-05-13, 14:14

The other conundrum is why did he talk about his Scottish father not changing his decision in the letter to my grandmother. Surely he wouldn't have been there in Cork when he went to visit his people.

Was he perhaps making up a story that would explain to her why they would not be going to visit his family or contact them, but without having to tell the truth about his background?

Shona

22-05-13, 14:17

I should think UK disciplinary records may well have survived, and might be at Kew.

This letter from June 1913 appears David Hutton's military records:

The attached Army Form B123 and signed confession of No 3514 Private John Hamilton, 3rd Bn Leinster Regiment are forwarded with a request that you will verify his statement and if correct forward me his documents in order that he may be brought forward to trial.

Birr, 13 6 1913

Unfortunately, there is no confession!

Anyway, Crinkhill Barracks in Birr, Co Offaly, was the HQ of the Leinster Regiment. David Hutton alias John Hamilton, was in Tullamore Prison in Co Offaly in 1913, for ‘False Answering On Attestation.'

ElizabethHerts

22-05-13, 14:22

I think, like a lot of the Irish, he had kissed the Blarney Stone! :D
The Irish are renowned for their story telling, and a little bit of embellishment.

It doesn't really surprise me that the facts differ slightly from the family story. I have found that with quite a few of my families, even when they had nothing to hide.

Shona

22-05-13, 14:50

The other conundrum is why did he talk about his Scottish father not changing his decision in the letter to my grandmother. Surely he wouldn't have been there in Cork when he went to visit his people. Unless, of course, it was all a load of baloney!

I've wondered why he went to Cork in 1919. Cork was a hotbed of nationalism with active IRA brigades who targeted former soldiers. It wouldn't have been a safe place for DH/JH as a former soldier whose Catholic mother married a Scottish Protestant. So whatever the reason, it had to have been important.

annswabey

22-05-13, 15:12

Going back to his disciplinary record. What type of Court Martial was it, for giving wrong details?

Merry

22-05-13, 15:29

Hi, this is Merry texting from dau's dance studio!

I'm happy with the dob as 27 and 29 could easily get mixed up when written down and I do seem to recall when my mo-in-law heard the date from the merchant service papers she said she wasn't sure it was spot on compared with her memory, so maybe they copied it incorrectly from elsewhere.

Exciting, isn't it? Time to start adding to our tree, but first I have to start phoning rest homes as they are sending mum home on Fri even though she hasn't yet walked unaided!!!

Shona

22-05-13, 15:32

Going back to his disciplinary record. What type of Court Martial was it, for giving wrong details?

There were at least three trials. I'll get the details.

Shona

22-05-13, 15:59

Going back to his disciplinary record. What type of Court Martial was it, for giving wrong details?

David Hutton first enlists with the Royal Munster Fusiliers Special Reserve in June 1911. After three months, he transfers to the regular army - Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

He was serving with the Royal Dublin Fusiliers when he was tried by the DCM on 9 Aug 1912 for 1) Absenting himself, 2) Assaulting an escort and 3) having conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline. He was sentenced to 28 days detention, released on 5 Sept 1912 and returned to duty on 6 Sept 1912.

He was next tried and convicted in 1912 - again by the DCM - sentenced to 84 days hard labour and put under stoppage of pay. He was released in December 1912 and discharged with ignominy.

In 1913, he enlisted with the Royal Leinster Regiment - under the name of John Hamilton. The enlistment papers under the name of John Hamilton haven't survived. In June 1913, he was sentenced to six months for false attestation on enlistment. Application was made for discharge. The Leinster reg was based in Co Carlow and David Hutton appears on the Tullamore, Co Carlow, prison records on 1913. His papers refer to Section 99 of the Army Act.

In early 1914, he enlists once more - with the 1st King's Dragoon Guards - this time in Scotland.

A letter from the 5th Dragoon Guards, Aldershot, dated 21 July 1914, states:

'With reference to Army Form B123, this man states that he was 11112 David Hamilton in the 2nd Bat Royal Dublin Fusiliers, joined at Cork on 29 Sept 1911 and was discharged with ignominy from that battalion in Gravesend in November 1912. If this is correct, will you forward documents as early as possible, please.'

Again, he is sentenced to six months, with one month remitted.

In December 1914, he enlists with the Royal Field Artillery.

After the war, his medals are forfeited.

Shona

22-05-13, 17:50

:confused::confused::confused:

I've got two sheep-stealing Bartholomew Scannells incarcerated in Cork.

1) 1859, born 1834 in Ballymantle
- this a rural townland is halfway between Cork and Kinsale.

2) 1863, born 1818 in Carrigaline
- this is on the south coast of the county.

There's also a prison record from 1854 for a BS (born 1834) for an assault on George Paterson.

Just nipping back to the sheep-stealing (black sheep?) Bart Scannells.

There are five Bartholomew Scannels mentioned in the Griffiths Valuation

1) Bartholomew Scannell, Fuller's Lane, off Bandon Road, St Finbar, Cork - house and yard.
2) Bartholomew Scannell, Shanbally, Carrigaline parish - house.
3) Bartholomew Scannell, Minane, Tracton parish - house, offices and land.
4) Bartholomew Scannell, Ballybeg East, Buttevant parish - house.
5) Bartholomew Scannell, Rooves Beg, Aglish parish (part of) - house and garden.

It seems therefore that the Bartholomew Scannell who stole a sheep in 1863, remains in Carrigaline parish. So he can be put to one side for the time being.

As regards the others...

BS3 - Tracton parish is south of Carrigaline parish.
BS4 - Buttevant is north of Cork, almost half way to Limerick.
BS5 - Rooves Beg is west of Cork - nearer Macroom.

BS1? I'm liking this Bartholomew Scannell as our man...and probably not a sheep thief.

Merry

22-05-13, 17:59

Shona, is it possible to tell when between 1848 and 1864 those details were collected?

annswabey

22-05-13, 18:00

Shona

22-05-13, 18:27

Thanks for the information on the trials, Shona. He may feature in one of the various registers of Court Martials at Kew but it would probably only give the basic details - charge, sentence etc. It would be quite a mammoth search too so probably not worth looking!

I agree.

There is a wealth of info available in the records on Ancestry from which we get a fairly decent picture. It's a shame that the papers in the name of John Hamilton haven't survived. I have a theory about the initial discharge and will PM Merry about it.

Have you had a look at the medal record card? I'm still not satisfied with the reason given for medal forfeiture - that he hadn't actually served in France/Belgium.

I must have researched near to 1,000 men who served in WW1 and haven't come across this as a reason for forfeiture. Something in me feels that the forfeiture was connected to either his earlier discharge with ignominy or his criminal activities post-war.

Merry

22-05-13, 18:39

Here is the link to the WW1 medal card for JH on my Public Folder in my Skydrive account.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=AA8461CA7AAD5273!7547&authkey=!ANCh0QNp8_VmbQc

annswabey

22-05-13, 18:42

I've looked at thousands of WW1 records too and agree that they were probably forfeited due to misconduct. I can look at the Medal Roll at Kew to see if it sheds any light.

kiterunner

22-05-13, 18:43

Also this is the Silver War Badge roll:
ancestry SWB roll (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2456/wo329_2969-00019/25705?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3djohn%26gsln%3dha milton%26sx%3d%26f11%3d%26f17%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox% 3d1%26db%3dsilverwarbadgemedals%26ti%3d5538%26ti.s i%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d0%26bsk%3dCIAA CZgABRaw&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

kiterunner

22-05-13, 18:44

I've looked at thousands of WW1 records too and agree that they were probably forfeited due to misconduct. I can look at the Medal Roll at Kew to see if it sheds any light.

I was just going to suggest someone do that, Ann!

Shona

22-05-13, 19:11

Shona, is it possible to tell when between 1848 and 1864 those details were collected?

I've done it before, but I can't remember how. :(

However, the Bart Scannell in Tracton also appears in the Tithe Applotment Book of 1833.

Welcome to the world of Irish census substitutes!

Shona

22-05-13, 19:24

I've looked at thousands of WW1 records too and agree that they were probably forfeited due to misconduct. I can look at the Medal Roll at Kew to see if it sheds any light.

That would be fantastic, Ann.

Merry said that many years ago, she had asked someone at the National Archives to look into why the medals were forfeited. The answer was that he hadn't served in France/Belgium. This is possible, but it would have meant a huge error made on the part of the military when the medal card was made out.

Merry

22-05-13, 19:29

This is possible, but it would have meant a huge error made on the part of the military when the medal card was made out.

And the medal card states he was discharged in 1917, but he was still in the army in 1918.

JBee

22-05-13, 21:09

but which Regiment?

Shona

22-05-13, 21:36

Rfa.

Merry

23-05-13, 07:16

Shona, is your Inbox full? I have just realised the last two messages I've sent you have bounced back to me!!

Shona

23-05-13, 07:20

Shona, is your Inbox full? I have just realised the last two messages I've sent you have bounced back to me!!

No - have been able to read your messages.

Merry

23-05-13, 07:50

thanks - sorted now :)

JBee

23-05-13, 08:42

In the same regiment 1917 and 1918?

To add my tuppence - I can't see that he would have been awarded medals if he wasn't there - sure the checks of the medals office would have had to confirm his service, so more likely they found out he told porkies on his attestation - this is taken on oath and taken extremely seriously.

Shona

23-05-13, 09:09

And the medal card states he was discharged in 1917, but he was still in the army in 1918.

With his track record, if he was discharged, he'd simply re-enlist!!!

Shona

23-05-13, 09:39

Shona, is it possible to tell when between 1848 and 1864 those details were collected?

The Griffiths Valuation of Cork was carried out between 1850 and 1852.

kiterunner

23-05-13, 10:02

The Griffiths Valuation of Cork was carried out between 1850 and 1852.

So probably too early for our Bartholomew to be listed?

Merry

23-05-13, 10:34

So probably too early for our Bartholomew to be listed?

Yes, but his father was also Bart :) (if the 1839 bap is the right one.)

After the Bank Holiday we will get sorted with ordering more certs, but at the moment am wrapped up with care home phone calls!

tenterfieldjulie

23-05-13, 13:36

Take care Merry. I hope you find the right answers for the home for your mother. Julie

Shona

23-05-13, 16:13

Some social context to keep in mind.

In 1841, the Irish population was 8,747,558, but by 1851, it was 6,515,749. It's estimated that 1 million died during the famine years (mainly from disease), while another million emigrated. The county of Cork was one of the worst affected. However, the population of the City of Cork increased during the famine years due to the sheer volume of people who left the countryside in search of food as well as those seeking to emigrate - the population in the rural areas north and south of the city declined by 30%.

Merry

23-05-13, 20:35

I googled and found some images of Mountjoy (ironically named place!) prisoners which are hosted on the National Archives of Ireland website, but I couldn't see how to search or where to look for other images.

They have 13,000 prisoner photos!! The few I've seen online are from the first decade of the 20thC!

Merry

24-05-13, 13:33

I don't think we found Margaret in 1901. This looks like her;

M Huton (sic) aged 35, married, occ penitent, can read, b Cork City

She is in the Cork City Penitentiary at Peacock Lane, Cork (last page).

There was also a Magdalen Asylum in Peacock Lane at some point :eek:. However, in 1901 I can only see the following institutions for Peacock Lane: The Penitentiary, The Penitentiary Hospital, a Day Nursery, a Christian Brothers School and Peacock Lane Convent School.

kiterunner

24-05-13, 13:46

Yes, looks likely to be her.

Shona

24-05-13, 14:14

Good one, Merry.

The laundry was there in 1901.

In 1809 a home for homeless women was established by a Mr. Michael Tierry and was run by a voluntary body. In 1845 the Sisters of Charity were asked to take it over and, as a means of income, the Sisters ran a laundry - the ‘Peacock Lane Laundry' - until its closure in 1991.

annswabey

24-05-13, 14:38

Looked at the Medal Rolls today, at Kew. The Star Roll just said "Star not recovered". The Roll for the Victory and British Medals said "Forfeits medals. Medals recalled and medals returned"

Mary from Italy

24-05-13, 15:33

Poor Margaret, what an awful life she must have had.

Merry

24-05-13, 15:37

Thanks Ann.

I agree, Mary.

That was what confused me, Shona. I thought I would be able to recognise the laundry on the census, but couldn't. Are you saying the penitentiary IS the laundry? :eek:

Shona

24-05-13, 21:36

That was what confused me, Shona. I thought I would be able to recognise the laundry on the census, but couldn't. Are you saying the penitentiary IS the laundry? :eek:

I don't think they were called laundries back then - it's more of a modern catch-all term. The fact Maggie was referred to as a penitent suggest she was in one of the 'care' of the nuns.

This snippet may help.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GKrawQFWKxQC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=st+vincents+peacock+lane+cork&source=bl&ots=8mddc6xplJ&sig=iYjkekFG_qgOiM2HtxUjXCr4vbQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dqfUa3tH4TYOtq4gIAF&ved=0CBsQ6AEwBA

Merry

25-05-13, 06:30

Thanks Shona.

I notice that on the House and Building Return it is actually called the Peacock Lane Penitentiary. The Head of House is described as "Katherine Lyons Rev Mother" , which surprised me as I thought Catholic nuns were named for Saints. For instance, the only one I've ever known personally was called Sister Thomas More. Perhaps Katherine Lyons was her birth name?

The form used for the penitents was headed up "Prison, Bridewell and Police Station return".

Merry

25-05-13, 07:04

Perhaps Katherine Lyons was her birth name?

Looks like it was, now I've found her I the convent next door to the penitentiary - all the other sisters seem to be listed by what look like birth names.

Shona

25-05-13, 09:08

Looks like it was, now I've found her I the convent next door to the penitentiary - all the other sisters seem to be listed by what look like birth names.

Does name not depend on the order? The founder of the Irish Sisters of Charity was Mary Aitkenhead - she always kept that name, so poss that was the tradition.

Maggie vanishes from the records after 1919 (year of John Hamilton's visit). I've been conflicted as to whether she died (haven't found a record that fits) or was placed in an institution. If it's the latter, it's going to be tough tracing her, as so many had their names changed on entry.

Merry

25-05-13, 09:39

As long as he didn't do her in!!

Shona

25-05-13, 10:22

As long as he didn't do her in!!
:eek:

tenterfieldjulie

25-05-13, 10:26

shades of eliza doolittle !!!

Mary from Italy

25-05-13, 12:34

Talking of which... the other day I came across a newspaper item about a murder of a prostitute called Honora Scannell in London in 1862. No idea if she's related to your Scannells, because it just says she was Irish, not which county she came from. If the age given was correct, she was born c. 1838.

Shona

25-05-13, 12:51

More Angela's Ashes than Eliza Doolittle...

Mary from Italy

25-05-13, 20:24

Maggie vanishes from the records after 1919 (year of John Hamilton's visit). I've been conflicted as to whether she died (haven't found a record that fits) or was placed in an institution. If it's the latter, it's going to be tough tracing her, as so many had their names changed on entry.

It's also possible that she remarried or emigrated.

Merry

26-05-13, 10:23

I've been looking at the various school establishments listed on DH's army record in 1911.

Duke of York's Royal Military School

Royal Hibernian Military School

Queen Victoria School

Industrial School under Home Office or Local Government Board

I'm guessing the most recent place he had been at was the top one and the list runs back in time.

The Duke of York's school was in Chelsea until 1909 ad then in Dover.
The Royal Hibernian School was in Dublin
The Queen Victoria school seems to have been in Dunblane and was for the children of Scottish servicemen and wasn't opened until 1909. Hmmm.....is anyone aware of another school of the same name, as this one seems unlikely.

The D of Y school has admission records at TNA!

Shona

26-05-13, 10:47

Merry, those schools were printed on the military papers as standard - it doesn't mean he attended them. Has the form been ticked by any of tbe schools or 'yes' written in with dates? I remember getting really excited when I saw those schools in military papers when I was tesearching the OH's Tipperary and Cork branches. There is a website dedicated to the schools in Dublin and Chelsea which has names. Can't seem to find tve website now! I couldn't find any of the OH's lot as being admitted to the schools, so contacted the website - they were the ones who told me that it was simply a standard form. If DH was a pupil, then there should be dates he attended entered on the form.

Merry

26-05-13, 10:50

Oh, I didn't realise that. I saw other copies of the same sheet without those schools listed (ie nothing listed at all!) and so it didn't occur to me they might not relate to him.

I guess as he wasn't a boy soldier there would be no need to fill in anything anyway, as it says for Boys only at the side of the list.

Back to square one then! lol

Thanks Shona :)

Merry

26-05-13, 10:52

Hmmm, I'm supposed to be good at maths, so why was I thinking he was 18 in 1911! lol *checks fingers and toes* :rolleyes:

Merry

27-05-13, 20:03

Gutted!

As a surprise for OH I contacted the National Archives of Ireland about the photos they have of inmates of Mountjoy Prison, asking them to see if they had any photos of David or Margaret (and to check the various aliases etc!).

Sadly, after checking the index of names for the period 1900-1920, they said "Sorry, no" ;(:(;(:(;(

kiterunner

27-05-13, 21:45

That's a shame, but at least you got a reply! (I never did hear back from the Kilmainham Gaol archivist about whether they had any info about my relatives.)

ElizabethHerts

27-05-13, 22:00

What a shame, Merry. However, from knowing zilch about JCH/DH, you now know a lot more, and about Mum too. The physical descriptions you have had are amazing.

Mary from Italy

28-05-13, 00:41

What a pity. Did you think to ask if they had any photos of Cork prisoners?

Merry

28-05-13, 07:10

No! lol

I was so certain they would have something in the Mountjoy records it didn't occur to me :o:o:o

Shona

29-05-13, 13:43

Doing a bit of a tidy up of the notes I made for this thread and I don't recall posting the following from the Cork street directories.

1787
John Florence Scannell, merchant, Pope's Quay

1944/1845
Joseph Scannell, barrister, 13 Marlboro' Street
Michael Scannell, flour dealer, 10 Barrack Street
Michael Scannell, car owner, 16 Morgan Street
Mrs Mary Scanell, dress maker, 1 Nicholas Street
Daniel Scannell, painter, 12 Nicholas Street
William Scannell, general smith, 25 John Street
Henry Scannell, apothecary and chemist, 91 South Main Street
John Scannell, cattle dealer, 20 Bennett Street and Bishop Street
Jeremiah Scannell, vintner, 50 Gillabbey Street
Ellen Scannell, vintner and ships bread baker, 16 Patrick's Quay
Lawrence Scannell, cooper, 68 Barrack Street
Michael Scannell, cream shop, 21 Robert Street
Mary Scannell, grocer etc, 54 Market Street

1846
Joseph John Scannell, barrister, 13 Marlborough Street
Mary Scannell, baker etc, 23 Patrick''s Quay
Mary Scannell, shopkeeper, 54 Corn Market Street
Timothy Scannell, apothecar, 94 Main Street South
William Scannell, smith, John Street

1856
Cornelius Scannell, blacksmith, Douglas Street
Denis Scannell, hairdresser, Great Britain Street
James Scannell, car owner, 2 Morgan Street
James Scannell, blacksmith, Ballintemple
Jeremiah Scannell, tailor, 20 Mary Street
Joseph John Scannell, barrister, 14 Marlborough Street
Maria Scannell, flour dealer, George's Quay
Mary Scannell, tobacconist, 54 Corn Market Street
Michael Scannell, boarding house, 8 Drawbridge Street
Michael Scannell, smith, John Street
Patrick Scannell, stonemason, 14 Douglas Street
Thomas Scannell, blacksmith, 7 Featherbed Lane
Timothy Scannell, apothecary, 90 Grand Parade
Timothy Scannell, clerk, 11 Clarence Street

Mary from Italy

05-06-13, 18:18

You might want to check out the new Irish Petty Sessions records on FMP, Merry.

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=17704

Merry

05-06-13, 19:15

lol Thanks Mary! I was looking at them yesterday without realising they are new.

We are waiting for the first few certificates to arrive at the moment.

Merry

05-06-13, 19:25

Someone on Rootschat found this possible for David Hutton in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Kilbonane/Kilcrea/374087/

We think the transcript should say Hutton, but the place of birth is wrong, but could be a mistake. If this is someone else then we can't find a birth reg for him as Hutton or Sutton, so there's a good chance it's our David!

Mary from Italy

05-06-13, 19:48

That does look good - the first letter of the surname isn't very clear on the image, but it doesn't look like the S in servant.

kiterunner

05-06-13, 22:22

Looks similar to the first letter of Head of Family.

Merry

10-06-13, 12:18

The first certificate has come back!:

Birth in the District of 8 South in the Union of Cork in the County of City of Cork

Date and place of birth: Twenty seventh September 1869 Cat Lane
Name: Margaret
Sex: F
Name etc and dwelling of father: Bartholomew Scannell Cat Lane
Name etc of Mother: Margaret Scannell formerly Holmes
Rank/Prof of father: Labourer
Sig of Informant: The mark X of Margaret Scannell Mother Cat Lane
When Reg: Second November 1869

So, she was indeed born the day after she was baptised!! lol I suppose it's most likely the baptism date was wrong, as the registration was only five weeks and one day after the birth.

Bartholomew isn't a clerk this time!!

Margaret Holmes/Scannell said she could read and write on the 1901 census, so I presume either that was an exaggeration, or, more likely, she was asked to make her mark on the cert.

Merry

10-06-13, 12:21

Also the Sisters of Mercy have replied to OH's email asking about possible archived records for David Hutton in St Joseph's Industrial School (where he was in 1901) - they are looking into this and have asked for his postal address! :)

kiterunner

10-06-13, 12:22

Bartholomew isn't a clerk this time!!

Margaret Holmes/Scannell said she could read and write on the 1901 census, so I presume either that was an exaggeration, or, more likely, she was asked to make her mark on the cert.

Or maybe she learned to write between 1869 and 1901? Labourer does seem more likely for Bartholomew's occupation.

Merry

10-06-13, 12:31

Maybe Margaret felt the need to improve her father's occ to satisfy her new Scottish family?

Anyway, we will be getting a few more with Bart's details on, so it will be interesting to see if any other occupations surface!

ElizabethHerts

10-06-13, 13:52

So pleased the information is coming in, Merry.

Shona

10-06-13, 16:24

Merry, it's breakthroughs after all those years searching that make this hobby so addictive. Chuffed for you and your OH.

Merry

12-06-13, 13:57

Second certificate (they cost 4 euros including postage and the post was 1.65 euros!) is for the marriage of Margaret's brother, Patrick.

16th May 1891 The Roman Catholic Chapel St Finbarr's West

Patrick Scannell, full age, bachelor, labourer, of 1 Protestant Lane, father Bartholomew Scannell, labourer

Bridget Kingston, full age, spinster, no occ, 36 Brandy Lane, father James Kingston, carpenter

Signed Patrick Scannell
The mark of bridget Kingston

Witnesses:
Patrick Scannell
the mark of Hannah Scannell

kiterunner

12-06-13, 14:05

Mary mentioned a Hannah in post #188. I wonder who the witness Patrick Scannell is, though. An uncle? Cousin?

Merry

12-06-13, 14:18

I will have a look back at Mary's post in a min (am on phone which is S-L-O-W!)

Goodness knows who Patrick is! Might not be very easy to work out!!

Shona

12-06-13, 14:22

Mary mentioned a Hannah in post #188. I wonder who the witness Patrick Scannell is, though. An uncle? Cousin? Could it be Margaret and Patrick's father - it doesn't say he is deceased on the record, does it?

kiterunner

12-06-13, 14:24

But their father's name was Bartholomew. Unless it's another Bat / Pat mixup.

Shona

12-06-13, 14:26

But their father's name was Bartholomew. Unless it's another Bat / Pat mixup.

Clearly my mind is mixing them all up, too!

This is Mary's post:

I think Margaret Scannell had a sister who married William Gorman (haven't found her baptism, but her father's name was given as Bartholomew when she got married. I haven't found anything obvious for her in the prison records (at least there's no Hannah Gorman aka Scannell).

Mary from Italy

12-06-13, 14:51

I found that on Familysearch if you want to check it out.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Ascannell%20%2Brecord_country%3A Ireland%20%2Bmarriage_place%3Acork%20%2Bfather_giv enname%3Abartholomew~

kiterunner

12-06-13, 15:15

Oh, okay, it probably won't be that Hannah then because she got married in 1862 so she would have been Hannah Gorman in 1891.

Shona

12-06-13, 15:36

Merry

12-06-13, 17:46

Recapping:

Baptised in Cork Urban to Bartholomew and Margaret Holmes:

Mary - 1 Oct 1868
Margaret - 27 Sept 1869
Honora - 2 March 1872 (this will be the Nora who appears on Margaret's prison records are her next of kin).

I have those and also Patrick and Johanna who were born earlier (1866 and 1863 from memory).

I think Margaret Scannell had a sister who married William Gorman (haven't found her baptism, but her father's name was given as Bartholomew when she got married. I haven't found anything obvious for her in the prison records (at least there's no Hannah Gorman aka Scannell).

The sister who married Wm Gorman can't be Margaret Scannell's sister if she was married in 1862. She could possibly have been the sister of Margaret's dad, Bart Scannell, though, as he probably married in the early 1860s and I think his father was also Bartholomew if I've picked out the right baptism (1839, father Bart, mother Catherine Brien). I can't find another bap with the same mother's details though, but that might be because I'm supposed to be cooking dinner, not doing lookups!

Mary from Italy

12-06-13, 18:44

The sister who married Wm Gorman can't be Margaret Scannell's sister if she was married in 1862. She could possibly have been the sister of Margaret's dad, Bart Scannell, though, as he probably married in the early 1860s and I think his father was also Bartholomew if I've picked out the right baptism (1839, father Bart, mother Catherine Brien).

Yes, sorry, I hadn't noticed that when I originally posted.

Merry

13-06-13, 13:10

Excerpt from the reply from the Sisters of Mercy regarding DH's time in St Joseph's Industrial School, Passage West, Co Cork:

.........David Hutton was admitted to the school on 10th July 1900. He was the 315th admission to St Joseph's and left on 22nd June 1904 to transfer to Greenmount Industrial school in Cork. Such transfers were standard as St Joseph's was an industrial school for junior boys ad accommodated boys to the age of ten at which point they transferred to an industrial school for senior boys.............the Greenmount school was run by the Presentation Brothers........the most recent contact address we have is Mount St Joseph, Blarney St, Cork.

Shona

13-06-13, 13:24

Brilliant to get info from them, Merry. Now, how does this tie in with Maggie's prison records for neglecting children?

Shona

13-06-13, 13:28

The two neglect cases were 1898 and 1900. So the second neglect case lead to David being sent to the school.

Shona

13-06-13, 13:57

Info on Greenmount:

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/CICA-VOL2-04.PDF

Merry

13-06-13, 16:07

The archivist at Greenmount is on six weeks leave! At least someone replied to our email though. They said, if no one replies by the end of July write again.... *makes note in diary*

Merry

18-06-13, 15:39

A mixed bag for the next batch of certificates!

I can't face typing out all the details unless anyone wants me to specifically, but here are the important bits:

Marriage of Honora Scannell shows her father as Patrick (labourer) rather than Bartholomew. Witnesses Mathew Keane and Mary Hourhan.

Birth cert for Honora Scannell shows parents as Bartholomew Scannell and Margaret Holmes. Date of birth 2nd March 1872, registered 2nd May 1872. Honora's baptism was 25th Feb 1872, father Pat Scannell mother Margaret Holmes. (late registration?!)

Death cert for Honora and Margaret's mother, Margaret Scannell, is not the right cert. Death was in 1906 aged 72 (the correct Margaret was listed as 67 in 1901) but this cert is for a lady "of Cattle Lane". Looking at Cattle Lane in 1901 I see there is a Margaret Scannell living there aged 70, so I presume this is her death in 1906. In which case, which is the right entry for OH's Margaret Scannell??? Her first known child was born in 1863.

The death cert for Bartholomew Scannell in 1872 shows him to be of a different address to the one given for the birth of his daughter Honora earlier the same year (irritating!). The registration was done by a Margaret Scannell but her relationship is not given. Hopefully she is his widow. His condition is given as married and occupation labourer. He died of smallpox and the informant was present at his death.

Shona

18-06-13, 15:52

Thank you, Merry.

kiterunner

18-06-13, 16:09

In which case, which is the right entry for OH's Margaret Scannell??? Her first known child was born in 1863.

I can't see a likely one; maybe she died somewhere other than Cork, or her age or name is wrong on the death index.

Shona

18-06-13, 16:31

Her daughter did a flit to Dublin. Perhaps the family had moved there?

Merry

18-06-13, 17:40

I wish I knew who JH/DH went to see on his visit to Cork in 1918/19.

I keep wondering if some of them emigrated when JH said his sister Kathleen was going to Canada (about 1920). Of course we only have the word of a 95 year old lady that this was what he told her some 70 years previously, so the info might not be right as well as not being true in the first place!!

Merry

27-07-13, 12:05

The archivist at Greenmount is on six weeks leave! At least someone replied to our email though. They said, if no one replies by the end of July write again.... *makes note in diary*

The archivist remembered without being reminded!

The paperwork has arrived. The main jist is as follows:

In June 1904 aged 9 years and 2 months, David Hutton was admitted to Greenmount Industrial School following four years at Passage West Industrial School. He was 4'4" and stout (!), fair with blue eyes - previous character good and four years of reports from the Greenmount school all stated "A good boy". Educational standard on entry - Reads and writes to 2nd standard. Can add and subtract.

His parents are recorded as John and (blank) Hutton and the box asking illegitimate states No! ('Parents' should read David and Margaret) Address, Aunt, Nora Cunningham, 5 Rope Walk Cork.

His aunt, Nora Cunningham, was one of the people who gave evidence about his circumstances at the original hearing in 1900. The result of the hearing was that David be ordered to be detained from 2nd July 1900 until 29th April 1911 (his 16th birthday) and at that time he had been charged with "Lodging with common or reputed prostitutes and in houses frequented by prostitutes for the purpose of prostitution".

In fact he was released on licence to a Mrs P J Murphy at Killumney (she was a farmer) in Dec 1910.

There is a note on the bottom of the form stating that "He called in May '17. In RFA Fought and wounded".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, we found that all very interesting, especially the bit about him calling back to the school in 1917. We are going to have another look at his letters to see if any of his numerous hospital visits might have been due to a wound rather than the bronchitis we thought he was being treated for!!

kiterunner

27-07-13, 18:45

Was May 1917 when he wrote that letter about visiting his family in Cork, Merry?

Merry

27-07-13, 18:54

No, I double checked today and the letter from Cork was dated 25th March 1919. I think JH/DH didn't know his future wife in May 1917, so we don't have letters from that period.

Merry

27-07-13, 19:34

Just checked the letters and none seem to have any reference to any fighting or wounds/injuries etc. As I said though, none are as early as May 1917.

Shona

28-07-13, 08:09

David was ordered to be detained from 2 July 1900. Ties in neatly with Maggie Scannell's conviction for neglecting her child - she served seven days and was released on 7 July 1900.

Somewhere on this thread (can't find it now) - it might have been in relation to when he first enlisted - he had been selling milk from a farm. Perhaps this was Mrs Murphy's? The school did have a number of farms which supplied the school and sold the surplus.

Interesting to note he called at the school in 1917 and said he had fought and had been wounded. This takes us right back to the medal record card which, at first glance, seems to indicate he did serve abroad, arriving in France in May 1915. He had been released from six months detention in Dec 1914. But we know he forfeited his medals. One reason cited is that he didn't serve abroad, but it could have been connecting to the false attesting.

He was discharged in Dec 1917 due to illness, but it is plausible he had been wounded at some point.

Then again, he may have concocted the story saying the had seen action, was wounded and therefore discharged. Sounds more macho than saying he was a bit chesty with bronchitis.

Merry

28-07-13, 16:17

In fact he was released on licence to a Mrs P J Murphy at Killumney (she was a farmer) in Dec 1910.

Somewhere on this thread (can't find it now) - it might have been in relation to when he first enlisted - he had been selling milk from a farm. Perhaps this was Mrs Murphy's? The school did have a number of farms which supplied the school and sold the surplus.

It may have been, but that wasn't the only place he went as in 1911 he was here:

Someone on Rootschat found this possible for David Hutton in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Kilbonane/Kilcrea/374087/