Peter Harrison (sorry - yes that one)

[Margaret in Burton]

As you know OH's grandfather is a mystery. Refused to speak about his early life, just said "All you need to know is I wasn't wanted".

Previous threads: http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10966&highlight=peter+henry+harrison

and

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1772&highlight=peter+henry+harrison


1911 census in Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire says name is Peter Henry Harrison b 1885 in Rotherham, Yorkshire.

1908 marriage in Ashby. Name is Peter Harrison (no Henry) and father Thomas (deceased)

1903 joins the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry in Pontefract, Yorkshire.
Army records only go back as far as 1913 when he was recalled. No next of kin for earlier service.

Can't find on 1901 or 1891 census.

NOW!!

I have found in 1901 (apologies if someone found this previously)

Reformatory School for Roman Catholic Boys in Mold, Flintshire, Wales a Peter Harrison aged 15 BUT he is from St Helens in Lancashire.

1891 there appear to be four Peter Harrison's born 1885/6 in St Helens.
sons of William and Jane, Robert and Ellen, Joseph and Margaret (that one says Parr but I think it means Parry which on another census I've seen seems to be part of St Helens) and Thomas.

1901 there are only three Peter Harrison's born 1885/1886, William and Jane, Robert and Agnes (perhaps a 2nd wife) and Joseph and Margaret.
Thomas Harrison from the 1891 seems to be in hospital in Southport.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uki1901%2c&rank=0&gsfn=thomas&gsln=harrison&sx=&gsco=&s0RealGL=UKICen&f1=&f2=&f5=&f18=&rg_81004011__date=1839&rs_81004011__date=1&f14=&f15=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=st+helens&prox=1&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=UKICEN&fh=0&h=22017901&recoff=
1902 a death for Thomas Harrison in Prescot, Lancs (right area for St Helens and the right age)

Our Peter joined up in 1903

How can I prove or disprove that the Peter in the reformatory school in Mold was our Peter?

I think we can take with a pinch of salt the 1911 census info that he was born in Rotherham. The 1913 Army info says he was born in Ashby de la Zouch.

The family assumed he was a Yorkshire man because of his being in the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.

I once asked if he had a Yorkshire accent, he died when OH was 9. I was told yes, but I think after living in South Derbyshire since 1918 and working in the pit he would have picked up a South Derbyshire accent.

[kiterunner]

I suppose the obvious question is whether the records for the Reformatory School are available. (St David's, previously Clarence.)

[kiterunner]

There is some information about it on here but I don't think it says where the records are:
http://www.missing-ancestors.com/CLARENCE%20REFORM%20SCH%20SHIP%20LIVERPOOL%20INFO% 20PAGE.htm

[kiterunner]

You might be best to contact Flintshire Record Office and ask whether they hold the records, or if not, do they know where they are held. Or it could be Liverpool Record Office.

[Margaret in Burton]

I suppose the obvious question is whether the records for the Reformatory School are available. (St David's, previously Clarence.)

There is some information about it on here but I don't think it says where the records are:
http://www.missing-ancestors.com/CLARENCE%20REFORM%20SCH%20SHIP%20LIVERPOOL%20INFO% 20PAGE.htm

Yes I saw that, or similar.

I just really want to get something on Peter. It even awakened OH's interest in FH when I mentioned it.

[Margaret in Burton]

You might be best to contact Flintshire Record Office and ask whether they hold the records, or if not, do they know where they are held. Or it could be Liverpool Record Office.

That's an idea

[Shona]

Interesting, Marg.

I will share this story with you because it has some relevance to your hunt for the elusive Peter Henry Harrison.

John McGlary, my great-grandfather, was similarly quiet about his background and we never knew how a boy ended up moving from the west of Scotland to Fife. It transpired that he was abandoned by his mother and he took to petty crime. He was moved from his home in the west and transferred to a prison ship for boys anchored in the Tay. When I was reading up about these institutions, I found that the boys were kept on the ship until they were 16, after which the majority were sent to work in the pits or joined the military (Navy for most of them). John's brother, Hugh, however, ended up in a notorious Catholic orphanage (Mum was still alive, though).

With this in mind, the following may shed some light on the Peter Harrison you have discovered in 1901, whether he is yours or not.


CLARENCE REFORMATORY SCHOOL SHIP FOR BOYS, OFF NEW FERRY, LIVERPOOL.

Certified 3rd August 1864 and run by the Liverpool Catholic Reformatory Association.

It was an 84 gun line-of-battle ship, 2,279 tons and launched in 1827. On the 17th January 1884 the ship was totally burnt out by an arson attack of 6 boys, fortunately no lives were lost. The boys were temporarily housed at Port Sanitary Hospital, Off New Ferry, Birkenhead, until 19th July 1884, when owing to the outbreak of cholera in the river the use of the hospital was required by the sanitary authorities. The boys were then transferred to the premises formerly occupied as a Reformatory School at Agricultural Colony of Mount St Bernard Abbey Reformatory School for Roman Catholic Boys, Whitwick, Nr Coalville, Leicestershire, and there the school was carried on until the end of year 1884-1885.

The vessel was replaced by the Royal William, and certified 18th November, 1885 for 300 boys, this ship suffered a mutiny in 1886 and was burnt out 26th July 1889, again no lives were lost, also a visiting Bishop was on board when it went up in flames. An official enquiry was held in August 1899 and tended to show that (1) the ship was wilfully fired (2) discipline on board was good (3) there were no feelings of discontent. Several months later the crime was brought home to 3 boys, who pleaded guilty and were sentenced to 12 months hard labour on 4th May 1900.

PREMISES NO. 111 and 113 SHAW STREET, LIVERPOOL certified 26th July 1899 for 266 boys as the temporary home for the CLARENCE REFORMATORY SHIP SCHOOL when it burnt out.

After a short stay at Rock Ferry the boys were housed at ST DAVID'S COLLEGE, MOLD, FLINT (CLWYD), re-named St. David's COLLEGE Reformatory School for Roman Catholic Boys and certified 9th August 1899. The premises consisted of the old county prison, the severer features of which were softened during the tenancy by the Jesuits. The prison yard was converted into a beautiful garden, with rows of trees set formally, and the walls inside were covered with creepers and climbing flower-plants.

During the stay in their first refuge at Shaw Street, the boys behaved well and the transfer to St David's College was effected without difficulty in August 1899. Anxiety to get back to Liverpool and the restlessness inseparable from a pic-nic existence, led to trouble, culminating in some lawlessness, mainly on the part of 1 or 2 desperate characters, and the absconding of some 35 on Christmas Day. The outbreak was quelled by the prosecution of several and the arming of the handful of officers.

The Kirkedge Roman Catholic Reformatory School for Boys, Nr. Sheffield, Certified 3rd September 1901 and closed 10th November 1905, took over until the boys went to the Farnworth Nautical School, Nr. Widnes which was certified in 1905 for 125 boys. it became Farnworth St Aidens Approved School from 1933 and closed in 1981.

Auxiliary Home with Birkdale Farm School. Cessation of certification or closure April, 1923.

STAFF

1866 - Captain Algar ; school instruction Mr McGovern.

1867 - Captain Algar R.N.

1868 - Captain Algar R.N., school instruction 2 Christian Brothers.

1869 - Captain Algar R.N.

1872 - Captain-superintendent Algar R.N.

1884 - Superintendent, Captain John Hudson ; chief officer Mr John Lawless ; head schoolmaster Mr F.J. Potter ; assistant schoolmaster Mr J. Carrigan, who assists as bandmaster.

1891 - Captain Superintendent, Captain Edward P. Statham R.N. ; chief officer, Mr J. Thompson ; schoolmaster, Mr J. Kearney ; assistant schoolmaster Mr P. Fitzpatrick ; chaplain Rev. M. Clarke.

1895 - Captain Superintendent, Captain E. P. Statham R.N. ; chief officer, Mr John Thompson ; schoolmaster, Mr John Kearney ; assistant schoolmaster Mr M. Murphy ; chaplain Rev. M. Clarke.

1900 - The Captain Superintendent Commander G.H. Young R.N. ; chief officer Mr Leahy ; head schoolmaster Mr Kearney ; assistants Messrs J. Doyle and J. O'Donohoe ; chaplain Rev. P. Donnelly.

1903 - Superintendent Mr Denis Murphy ; Chaplain Rev. George Walmsley ; schoolmaster Mr J Kearney would be leaving to take up the position of superintendent of Parkhead ; assistant schoolmaster Mr Thomas Doyle ; seamanship instructor Mr Laurence McCarthy.

It's a stretch (pardon the pun!), but I wonder if your Peter Harrison had any links with the Agricultural Colony of Mount St Bernard Abbey Reformatory School for Roman Catholic Boys, Whitwick, near Coalville - it's not too far away from Ashby-de-Zouch.

[Shona]

Ah - just realised that Kite had posted a link to the same info.

[Shona]

Marg,

Here is a link to the records available for the Liverpool Catholic Reformatory Association:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=138-364cat&cid=0#0

The admission registers for the period in question do survive.

[Margaret in Burton]

I need to get my head around this info

Thanks Shona

[Margaret in Burton]

Marg,

Here is a link to the records available for the Liverpool Catholic Reformatory Association:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=138-364cat&cid=0#0

The admission registers for the period in question so survive.

I don't understand a word of that. Maybe I need to read it again

[Margaret in Burton]

I'm tired I need to look again another day.

Not tomorrow as I'm off to see Phantom of the Opera

[kiterunner]

I think basically it says there are lots of records from the Liverpool Catholic Reformatory Association held at Liverpool Archives. And you would want to look at the Roll of Juvenile Offenders Dec 1890 - May 1904 and the Roll of Juvenile Offenders 1898-1917 to see when he was admitted and discharged, plus any other information included such as place and date of conviction, remarks, etc which might help. If it says he was discharged in 1903 and joined the army, for instance!

So I guess you would have to go to Liverpool Record Office to look at the records or have someone look at them for you. (Liverpool Record Office do offer a research service) But it looks as though you will have to wait until they reopen. :(
http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/libraries-and-archives/archives-local-and-family-history/

[Merry]

This looks like the baptism for the Peter you have found (Lancs OPC):

Baptism: 22 Mar 1887 St Paul Mission, Eccleston, Lancashire, England
Peter Harrison - [Child] of Thomas Harrison & Jane
Born: 1 May 1886
Abode: 106 Raglan St.
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: E. W. Watson
Register: Baptisms 1884 - 1894, Page 19, Entry 149
Source: LDS Film 1849657

Didn't your Peter have a dob in July?

[Margaret in Burton]

This looks like the baptism for the Peter you have found (Lancs OPC):

Baptism: 22 Mar 1887 St Paul Mission, Eccleston, Lancashire, England
Peter Harrison - [Child] of Thomas Harrison & Jane
Born: 1 May 1886
Abode: 106 Raglan St.
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: E. W. Watson
Register: Baptisms 1884 - 1894, Page 19, Entry 149
Source: LDS Film 1849657

Didn't your Peter have a dob in July?

22nd July according to the diary entry of his daughter Doris. The rest of the family didn't seem to have a clue when his birthday was.

I'm probably clutching at straws again.

[Shona]

To find the needle in the haystack, you need to clutch at a few straws.

[Phoenix]

How important were birthdays in the late 1800s? The impossible wobbling of some children's ages on censuses suggest that some parents had only the vaguest ideas of how old their own children were.

Your theory sounds fundamentally sound: eliminate all the other candidates till what remains must be him.

[kiterunner]

Your theory sounds fundamentally sound: eliminate all the other candidates till what remains must be him.

Though it's possible that Peter Harrison wasn't his real name, I think Marg has said before?

[Merry]

This is from Ancestry. The CWGC doesn't give his age or any info on parents and we know there were plenty of PH's born in St Helens:


Name: Peter Harrison
Birth Place: St. Helens, Lancs
Death Date: 3 Aug 1917
Death Location: France & Flanders
Enlistment Location: St. Helens
Rank: Private
Regiment: Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment)
Battalion: 1/5th Battalion
Number: 240161
Type of Casualty: Died of wounds
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

[kiterunner]

This is from Ancestry. The CWGC doesn't give his age or any info on parents and we know there were plenty of PH's born in St Helens:


Name: Peter Harrison
Birth Place: St. Helens, Lancs
Death Date: 3 Aug 1917
Death Location: France & Flanders
Enlistment Location: St. Helens
Rank: Private
Regiment: Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment)
Battalion: 1/5th Battalion
Number: 240161
Type of Casualty: Died of wounds
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

This Peter Harrison has two numbers on his medal index card, the other one being 1648, and searching for that number on ancestry brings up his service record. Age 23 years on his attestation form dated 1912. So he was born about 1888-9.

[Merry]

I'm amazed at how many Peters there are from St Helen's actually.

[kiterunner]

The one who died 1917 had a mother called Elizabeth Abbot in 1919 (now I've read further through the papers) - wait, it says mother on one page and sister on another.
Ah, she says "Peter Harrison 240161 was not married. I am his Eldest Sister and Brought him up from a Baby ... Mrs E Abbott"

[Olde Crone]

But St Pauls mission church was C of E, not RC, so unlikely the baptism is of the Peter who went into a Catholic Reformatory.

OC

[kiterunner]

There are two Peter Harrison births in 1886 in Prescot district on FreeBMD - one Jan-Mar and one Apr-Jun. Of course they might not both be in St Helens.

[Margaret in Burton]

Though it's possible that Peter Harrison wasn't his real name, I think Marg has said before?

It's a theory put forward by AN and certainly a possibility.

The comment 'all you need to know was that I wasn't wanted' makes me think a foundling or something.

[Margaret in Burton]

To find the needle in the haystack, you need to clutch at a few straws.

:d:d:d

[Margaret in Burton]

This Peter Harrison has two numbers on his medal index card, the other one being 1648, and searching for that number on ancestry brings up his service record. Age 23 years on his attestation form dated 1912. So he was born about 1888-9.

So this Peter isn't the one in the reformatory school then?

[Margaret in Burton]

The one who died 1917 had a mother called Elizabeth Abbot in 1919 (now I've read further through the papers) - wait, it says mother on one page and sister on another.
Ah, she says "Peter Harrison 240161 was not married. I am his Eldest Sister and Brought him up from a Baby ... Mrs E Abbott"

So definitely not the one in the reformatory school?

[Margaret in Burton]

But St Pauls mission church was C of E, not RC, so unlikely the baptism is of the Peter who went into a Catholic Reformatory.

OC

Good point OC.

[Margaret in Burton]

There are two Peter Harrison births in 1886 in Prescot district on FreeBMD - one Jan-Mar and one Apr-Jun. Of course they might not both be in St Helens.

and if 22nd July was his birthday then neither of those are him.

Back to square one maybe.

[Margaret in Burton]

I've just sent an enquiry email to Flintshire Record Office.

[Merry]

The one who died 1917 had a mother called Elizabeth Abbot in 1919 (now I've read further through the papers) - wait, it says mother on one page and sister on another.
Ah, she says "Peter Harrison 240161 was not married. I am his Eldest Sister and Brought him up from a Baby ... Mrs E Abbott"

There's an Augustus Abbott marrying Elizabeth Harrison in 1889 in St Helens and they were together in 1891 with a son, John aged 1. Can't find them after that as no time to look. Can't see Augustus dying either. Marriage doesn't seem to be on Lancs OPC to find Elizabeth's father's name.

[Margaret in Burton]

There's an Augustus Abbott marrying Elizabeth Harrison in 1889 in St Helens and they were together in 1891 with a son, John aged 1. Can't find them after that as no time to look. Can't see Augustus dying either. Marriage doesn't seem to be on Lancs OPC to find Elizabeth's father's name.

1891 They are next door to the Thomas Harrison with son Peter aged 5

[Merry]

Oh! In 1891 Augustus, Elizabeth and son John Abbott are living nextdoor to Thomas Harrison and son Peter (etc).

Have to go now.

[Merry]

Snap Marg!

[Merry]

See Abbot one T in 1901.

[Margaret in Burton]

1901 Augustus and Elizabeth and no sign of Peter

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LANRG13_3526_3529-0552&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Abbot&st=d&ssrc=&pid=33785279

[Margaret in Burton]

Can't find them in 1911.

Can't find a death for Augustus either.

[garstonite]

IF You need a vist by any chance - I am only 8 miles from Parr in St Helens ...
allan

[Merry]

So at the moment we are saying it's likely the son of Thomas Harrison died in 1917 and so isn't yours (or rather, your OH's! :D)? The only bit that matches,, other than age, is that, despite the comment on the army record, this Peter doesn't look "wanted" either.

[Merry]

Thomas and Jane have dau Elizabeth aged 14 in 1881 which matches the age of Mrs Abbott in 1891.

[Margaret in Burton]

IF You need a vist by any chance - I am only 8 miles from Parr in St Helens ...
allan


Thanks Allan, but I think this is going to be a red herring.
So at the moment we are saying it's likely the son of Thomas Harrison died in 1917 and so isn't yours (or rather, your OH's! :D)? The only bit that matches,, other than age, is that, despite the comment on the army record, this Peter doesn't look "wanted" either.

So another dead end!

[Olde Crone]

Elizabeth Harrison and Augustus Abbott married at St Thomas Eccleston, which is a C of E church, so unlikely that either of them were RC, although the RC church in Eccleston doesn't appear to have been performing marriages in 1889.

I think therefore that the Peter brought up by his sister Mrs Abbott is probably not the one who went into a RC Reformatory.

The Robert/Ellen (Helen)couple were married at St thomas too, so again probably not RC.

Lancsbmd lists two Peter Harrisons born in 1886, only a few pages apart. No mmn given.

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

Elizabeth Harrison and Augustus Abbott married at St Thomas Eccleston, which is a C of E church, so unlikely that either of them were RC, although the RC church in Eccleston doesn't appear to have been performing marriages in 1889.

I think therefore that the Peter brought up by his sister Mrs Abbott is probably not the one who went into a RC Reformatory.

The Robert/Ellen (Helen)couple were married at St thomas too, so again probably not RC.

Lancsbmd lists two Peter Harrisons born in 1886, only a few pages apart. No mmn given.

OC

He isn't with family in 1901 OC. I can't see him at all in 1901 other than the one in the reformatory school in Mold.

[Margaret in Burton]

Had a reply from the Flintshire Record Office. They don't have an admissions register only a log book. Apparently this doesn't contain personal information and is only day to day stuff and is unlikely to help.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Sometimes day to day stuff can be such items if someone is sick and is sent to the Matron or is on detention/punishment. Would that sort of information be helpful? Julie

[Shona]

Had a reply from the Flintshire Record Office. They don't have an admissions register only a log book. Apparently this doesn't contain personal information and is only day to day stuff and is unlikely to help.

I think the admission books are held in Liverpool.

[Shona]

Roll of Juvenile Offenders. 364 CAT/8/4 Dec. 1890 - May 1904

These documents are held at Liverpool Record Office and Local History Service

Contents:
No index.
Sub-divided as follows
Roll of Juvenile Offenders under Detention in the Clarence Reformatory, 3 Dec. 1890 - 17 Nov. 1898.
Arranged chronologically by date of conviction and admission to Reformatory.
Gives no. on register; name; age on admission; chargeable to; place and date of conviction; imprisonment and detention; admitted; 4/- list; re-entered; Licensed or discharged (March/June/September/December quarter); remarks.
Roll of Juvenile Offenders under detention in the Birkdale Farm Reformatory, 27 Dec. 1890-13 Oct. 1899
Arranged and given as for the Clarence above.
Roll of Juvenile Offenders under Detention in the May Place Girls' Reformatory, 27 Jan.
1891 - 21 May 1904
Arranged and given as for the Clarence above.

Roll of Juvenile Offenders. 364 CAT/8/5 1898 - 1917

These documents are held at Liverpool Record Office and Local History Service

Contents:
No index.
Subdivided, arranged and given as 364 CAT 8/4
Clarence, 17 Nov. 1898 - 13 Dec. 1910 (heading Clarence crossed out on 24 Feb. 1899 and "Farnworth Nautical" inserted, thereafter headed Clarence again until Sep. 1902, from which date heading omitted altogether).
Birkdale, 4 Nov. 1899 - 23 Mar. 1909.
May Place, 28 May 1904 - 2 Nov. 1917.

[kiterunner]

Yes, it said on that A2A page that they are held at Liverpool Record Office, and unfortunately Liverpool's website says they are closed for refurbishment and only the most popular records are available until they reopen in "spring 2013". So the records may not be accessible at the moment. See my post #13.

[Margaret in Burton]

Sometimes day to day stuff can be such items if someone is sick and is sent to the Matron or is on detention/punishment. Would that sort of information be helpful? Julie

No Julie

We need to know about his life before and what happened when he was released.

[Shona]

Yes, it said on that A2A page that they are held at Liverpool Record Office, and unfortunately Liverpool's website says they are closed for refurbishment and only the most popular records are available until they reopen in "spring 2013". So the records may not be accessible at the moment. See my post #13.

Let's hope they open up again soon - surely April 2013 is spring?

[Margaret in Burton]

I think the admission books are held in Liverpool.

Yes, it said on that A2A page that they are held at Liverpool Record Office, and unfortunately Liverpool's website says they are closed for refurbishment and only the most popular records are available until they reopen in "spring 2013". So the records may not be accessible at the moment. See my post #13.

Yes I remember reading that they were closed. Oh well, on the back burner until they reopen.

[kiterunner]

Let's hope they open up again soon - surely April 2013 is spring?

Normally it would be, but this year...! :d

[Margaret in Burton]

Maybe some kind local person will go and look once they reopen. ;);)

[Shona]

Normally it would be, but this year...! :d

My garden thinks it's late February.

[Merry]

But if Thomas's son died in 1917 we don't need to look at these people any more, do we? Or have I missed something?

[Shona]

This is interesting:

http://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/310734

Possibly this person has more info?

[Margaret in Burton]

But if Thomas's son died in 1917 we don't need to look at these people any more, do we? Or have I missed something?

Possibly not but aren't we only guessing that its Thomas' son in the reformatory school?

[Margaret in Burton]

This is interesting:

http://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/310734

Possibly this person has more info?

Maybe, but this one was in Wales. Let's see what happens when the LRO reopens.

[Merry]

Possibly not but aren't we only guessing that its Thomas' son in the reformatory school?

I thought we were interested only in Thomas's son (because that's the father's name on your Peter's marriage cert), whether he was in the school or not? It does seem to be Thomas's son who died in 1917 as Elizabeth does seem to be Thomas's eldest daughter (there's a bap for her too on Lancs opc, dau of Thomas and Jane).

So, I was putting more emphasis on the father's name and you were putting more on the reformatory? Having said that, Peter is with his father in 1891 and a boarder in 1911 at the same address as on his army papers, and is apparently "missing" from St Helen's in 1901, so he probably is the one in the reformatory in Wales! But I agree, only probably!!

[merleyone]

If Peter Harrison did die in 1917 and was grandfather to Marge's OH, who was 9 when his grandfather died (see post 1), this surely must be another Peter Harrison, or Marge's OH is now 105yrs.

merleyone

[Merry]

Liverpool Echo

Publication date:Thursday 20 January 1898


Robbing an "Echo" Boy at St Helens
He Would be a Sailor

Peter Harrison aged 12, of 6, Eccleston Street, was charged at St Helens today with stealing 6½d from the person of Thomas Green, aged 10 years, of 26 Havelock Street. Chief Constable Wood said that about two o'clock on the previous day the boy Green was selling Echos in Church Street when he met prisoner. Harrison had a conversation with Green and asked him to go and spend the 2d that he had earned, and offered to afterwards help him to sell the Echos. Green refused. Harrison then asked him to show him his money. Green showed him 6½d whereupon prisoner snatched it and ran away. Constable Carmody said that he arrested the prisoner at the People's Palace in the evening and in answer to the charge he said, "A lad took it off me while I was minding it." - Chief Constable Wood said that Harrison was before the court on January 11, and on Tuesday this week he was ordered to be birched for stealing 4s 1½d and two pawn tickets from his sister's house. Harrison had a good home, but he was constantly sleeping out. The boy had got it into his head that he wanted to go on a ship. He said that he would never be a good boy, and he would go on until he got into a ship. He was twelve years old, but was very little for his age - The Chief Constable said that he would try and get the boy onto a reformatory ship if the magistrates committed him - The bench ordered him to a reformatory for four years - Prisoner's step-mother "Thank you sir. We can't do anything with him"

[Olde Crone]

Oooh, nice find, Merry!

A question for Margaret - was YOUR Peter Harrison a Roman Catholic? If he was, then he was almost certainly the one in the reformatory. If he wasn't, well, that proves nothing, lol.

OC

[Merry]

If Peter Harrison did die in 1917 and was grandfather to Marge's OH, who was 9 when his grandfather died (see post 1), this surely must be another Peter Harrison, or Marge's OH is now 105yrs.

merleyone

The man who died in 1917 is definitely a different person to Marg's late grandfather-in-law, but I think we were trying to establish if he was the same boy who was in the reformatory. If he wasn't then the one in the reformatory might still be a candidate for her OH's grandfather, but it's increasingly likely the one in the reformatory is the same one who died in 1917.

Typing up that newspaper report a couple of posts back, took me a record 90 mins as I had to do an emergency visit to mum in the middle of it. :(

[Merry]

Peter Harrison aged 12, of 6, Eccleston Street

This is Augustus and Elizabeth Abbott's address in 1891 (and Thomas Harrison's address too) , so it still seems to be Thomas Harrison's son who went to the reformatory and died in 1917.

[borobabs]

Marg has gone out for night to see phantom of opera with hubby

[Shona]

Liverpool Echo

Publication date:Thursday 20 January 1898


Robbing an "Echo" Boy at St Helens
He Would be a Sailor

Peter Harrison aged 12, of 6, Eccleston Street, was charged at St Helens today with stealing 6½d from the person of Thomas Green, aged 10 years, of 26 Havelock Street. Chief Constable Wood said that about two o'clock on the previous day the boy Green was selling Echos in Church Street when he met prisoner. Harrison had a conversation with Green and asked him to go and spend the 2d that he had earned, and offered to afterwards help him to sell the Echos. Green refused. Harrison then asked him to show him his money. Green showed him 6½d whereupon prisoner snatched it and ran away. Constable Carmody said that he arrested the prisoner at the People's Palace in the evening and in answer to the charge he said, "A lad took it off me while I was minding it." - Chief Constable Wood said that Harrison was before the court on January 11, and on Tuesday this week he was ordered to be birched for stealing 4s 1½d and two pawn tickets from his sister's house. Harrison had a good home, but he was constantly sleeping out. The boy had got it into his head that he wanted to go on a ship. He said that he would never be a good boy, and he would go on until he got into a ship. He was twelve years old, but was very little for his age - The Chief Constable said that he would try and get the boy onto a reformatory ship if the magistrates committed him - The bench ordered him to a reformatory for four years - Prisoner's step-mother "Thank you sir. We can't do anything with him"

Here is the Peter Harrison above in the 1891 census - living in Ecclestone Street.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LANRG12_3020_3023-0316&fn=Peter&ln=Harrison&st=r&ssrc=&pid=23259643

Thomas Harrison, head, 50, widower, coal miner
Henry Harrison, son, 19, coal miner
Thomas Harrison, son, 17, pony driver in coal mine
Sarah A Harrison, daughter, 15, scholar
Alice Harrison, daughter, 9, scholar
Peter Harrison, son, 5

All born in St Helen's

There is a Mary J Harrison, 12, servant, a couple of doors away.

[Merry]

Good for her, Babs!! :)

Thomas Harrison was in a convalescent hospital in 1901 (as Marg already said) and I see he was listed as married, so the step-mother mentioned at the end of the newspaper report may well be a real step-mother and not Peter's older sister as I'd imagined!

[Merry]

So, shall we forget this family now?!!! :D

Back to the drawing board?!!

[Merry]

I know we've probably stopped looking now, but I was interested to see it's likely that dad, Thomas Harrison, seems to have remarried in 1892 to Martha Wilson nee Eden who was his next door neighbour in 1891 and who had Thomas's daughter, Mary, as her servant. The interesting bit is that Martha says she is a widow in 1901 when Thomas is in the hospital!

[Margaret in Burton]

Oooh, nice find, Merry!

A question for Margaret - was YOUR Peter Harrison a Roman Catholic? If he was, then he was almost certainly the one in the reformatory. If he wasn't, well, that proves nothing, lol.

OC

OC that's one of the things we don't know about him. He certainly didnt bring his children up RC. They went to chapel.

[Margaret in Burton]

If Peter Harrison did die in 1917 and was grandfather to Marge's OH, who was 9 when his grandfather died (see post 1), this surely must be another Peter Harrison, or Marge's OH is now 105yrs.

merleyone

No he isn't 105. It's a long long story

[Margaret in Burton]

Liverpool Echo

Publication date:Thursday 20 January 1898


Robbing an "Echo" Boy at St Helens
He Would be a Sailor

Peter Harrison aged 12, of 6, Eccleston Street, was charged at St Helens today with stealing 6½d from the person of Thomas Green, aged 10 years, of 26 Havelock Street. Chief Constable Wood said that about two o'clock on the previous day the boy Green was selling Echos in Church Street when he met prisoner. Harrison had a conversation with Green and asked him to go and spend the 2d that he had earned, and offered to afterwards help him to sell the Echos. Green refused. Harrison then asked him to show him his money. Green showed him 6½d whereupon prisoner snatched it and ran away. Constable Carmody said that he arrested the prisoner at the People's Palace in the evening and in answer to the charge he said, "A lad took it off me while I was minding it." - Chief Constable Wood said that Harrison was before the court on January 11, and on Tuesday this week he was ordered to be birched for stealing 4s 1½d and two pawn tickets from his sister's house. Harrison had a good home, but he was constantly sleeping out. The boy had got it into his head that he wanted to go on a ship. He said that he would never be a good boy, and he would go on until he got into a ship. He was twelve years old, but was very little for his age - The Chief Constable said that he would try and get the boy onto a reformatory ship if the magistrates committed him - The bench ordered him to a reformatory for four years - Prisoner's step-mother "Thank you sir. We can't do anything with him"


Well done Merry.

That seems to sort that one out. Oh well, back to square one.