Lloyds

[kiterunner]

I found a marriage on findmypast 23 Apr 1845 at St Margaret Westminster between:
William Lloyd, full age, bachelor, porter, 13 Gt Chapel St, father John Lloyd, collector
and Susannah Phillimore, full age, widow, 35 Gt Chapel St
witnesses Nicho Martin and Jane Palmer.

No details are given of Susannah's father, but I'm pretty sure she is Susannah Glascodine (aka Glass) who was baptised 26 Dec 1808 at St Swithin, Walcot, Bath, Somerset, daughter of John and Jane. Susannah Glascodine married Thomas Phillimore 29 Aug 1839 at St Mary, Lambeth, Surrey, and the first name of her signature matches the marriage to William Lloyd. Thomas Phillimore died Jan 1844 in Southwark. Also "my" Susannah had a niece called Jane Palmer born about 1829 in Bristol who could be the witness.

This is Susannah in 1841:
1841 census (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=SRYHO107_1085_1086-0510&fn=Susannah&ln=Phillimore&st=d&ssrc=&pid=14583936)
Ann's Place, Southwark St George
Thos Phillimore 30 Carrier N
Susannah Do 30 N
Elizabeth Veal 8 N.

(I don't know how Elizabeth Veal is connected to them.) Can anyone see what happened to William and Susannah Lloyd after 1845, please? I can't find any trace of them.

[ElizabethHerts]

Kate, did Thomas and Susanna have any children who would still be with her in 1851?

[kiterunner]

Not that I know of, Elizabeth.

[Shona]

Could William have died before 1851? There are a few possibles on Ancestry's London deaths.

[kiterunner]

Yes, I suppose either or both of them could have died before 1851, there are just so many Lloyds around!

I've found this William Lloyd in 1851 who is a porter though if his age is right he is too young to be mine:
1851 census (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=SRYHO107_1556_1557-0176&fn=William&ln=Lloyd&st=d&ssrc=&pid=608625)
7 Queens Arms Ct, Southwark, Surrey
Richard Harding Head Widr 58 Coal Porter at Iron Foundry Sussex West Oldly
William Do Son U 30 Do Do Do Middx Westminster
William Lloyd Son in Law ??? 25 Do Do Do Surry Lambeth

Do you think it says he is married? Though if he is Richard Harding's son in law he's probably not the right William. Unless Susanna died and he remarried, of course!

[Shona]

It does say he is married rather than widowed.

[kiterunner]

I've found a marriage at Camberwell St Giles 6 Jul 1830 between Richard Harding widower and Martha Lloyd widow, so it looks as though William Lloyd on that 1851 census could be Richard Harding's stepson.

[kiterunner]

It does say he is married rather than widowed.

Thanks, Shona, I was hoping someone would say that!

[Shona]

Searching Ancestry's London burials, I get one match for a William Lloyd in Southwark between 1841 and 1851 - 24 June 1846, age 34 years, lived in Hen and Chicken Lane, buried in St Mary's churchyard, Newington.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Shona.

[Merry]

Glascodine

And where is the health warning on this thread?? ;( Very cunning heading it up with the innocuous surname Lloyd!

[kiterunner]

I was tempted to call it "Lloyds of London" but thought that would be a touch too misleading!

[Merry]

lol!!

I've been looking for Susannah without any luck so far.

[kiterunner]

I've found 13 Great Chapel Street on the 1844 and 1847 London electoral rolls but a David Cook is listed there both times.

[ElizabethHerts]

Kate, I have tried several tricks but no trace of Susannah, I'm afraid.

[kiterunner]

Thanks for looking, everyone. At least I have got her slightly further forward now I've found her second marriage!

[kiterunner]

Theres a Susannah Lloyd death Jan-Mar 1869 Newington, age 61. I suppose that could be her. There are a few possible female S L's with unknown birthplaces in lunatic asylums in 1851 and 1861.

[kiterunner]

Revisiting this thread, I have found this family in 1841:
Claremont Place, Mile End Old Town, Stepney
John Lloyd 45 Collector N
Mary Do 45 N
John Do 20 N
William Do 15 N
George Do 12 Y
Alfred Do 10 Y
Philip Do 6 Y
Jane do 3 Y

and this is them in 1851, same address as 1841 but without William:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1552_1553-0304/517872?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
John Lloyd Head Mar 56 Toll Collector Surrey Bermondsey
Mary " Wife M 56 Do Kingston
John Do Son U 30 Do Lambeth
George Do Son U 22 Laborer (Docks) Middlesex Stepney
Philip Do Son U 16 Scholar Do Do
Jane Do Daur 13 Do Do Do.

I couldn't find Susanna listed in the lunatic asylum records on ancestry so I don't know whether she was in one or not.

[kiterunner]

And this is William Lloyd's baptism, 8 Mar 1826 at St Mary Lambeth:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_195072-00570/1598177?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
William, son of John and Mary Lloyd, Devonshire Street, collector.

[kiterunner]

Well, this 1851 census entry looks worth investigating tomorrow as he is with a Phillimore!
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/SRYHO107_1556_1557-0392/612439?backurl=&ssrc=pt_t19209336_p20327377231&backlabel=Return

[Merry]

Having not been able to identify Elizabeth Phillimore anywhere else, the only other thing I've done is to check the GRO indexes for births of children called Phillimore or Lloyd with mmn Glass(codine) at the relevant times (only up to 1851 for Lloyd). Didn't find anything, though discovering that the GRO find the surnames Webb and Bowie phonetically similar to Glasscodine, but not any other surname, wasn't encouraging!

[kiterunner]

Lol. Thanks for looking, anyway.

[kiterunner]

I wonder whether Elizabeth Phillimore is Elizabeth Veal from the 1841 census. Though I never worked out who Elizabeth Veal was!

[kiterunner]

There are a couple of Elizabeth Veales baptised at Walcot St Swithin around the right time, from FreeREG:
Elizabeth Sarah Veale 2 Dec 1832, born 29 Jun, abode 7 Camden St, parents Edward Veale, carpenter, and Mary Anne
Elizabeth Veale 13 Jan 1833, abode Larkhall, parents James Veale, basket maker and Susanna.

The second one looks interesting, doesn't it? I don't see a marriage for James and Susanna on FreeREG but of course I need to look elsewhere to see if I can rule them out.

[kiterunner]

This looks to be the family of James Veale, basket maker, in 1841, although he has changed occupation:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/SOMHO107_969_970-0365/13641025?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Claremont Buildings, Walcot, Somerset
James Veale 30 Labourer Y
Susan Veale 38 Y
Emma Do 15 Y
Mary Do 10 Y
Elizabeth Do 5 Y
Matilda Do 2 Y

Emma's baptism has him down as a basket maker, and there is a previous Matilda with father basket maker who died in 1837 with abode Claremont Buildings. So that seems to rule them out.

[Merry]

Hmmmm, yes. I see what you mean.

[kiterunner]

So, looking at the other Elizabeth Veale from Walcot St Swithin: Elizabeth Sarah Veale baptised 2 Dec 1832, born 29 June, daughter of Edward and Mary Anne of No 7 Camden Street, carpenter.

Banns were published on the 17-31 Jul 1831 for the marriage of Edward Gray Veale, bachelor, and Mary Ann Phillimore, spinster, both of the parish of Walcot St Swithin. But they didn't actually marry until the 18th Aug 1833. (Witnesses Joseph Weston and William Barrett.)

Thomas Philamore, son of John and Sarah, was baptised 19 Apr 1807 at Chew Magna, and Mary Ann Phillimore, daughter of John and Sarah, was baptised 31 Aug 1812 at Walcot St Swithin. John Phillimore married Sarah Veale 31 Dec 1804 at Bath St Michael.

So it looks likely that Elizabeth Veal / Elizabeth Phillimore on the 1841 and 1851 censuses is Thomas's niece, born before her parents' marriage, with her parents having to wait until Mary Ann was 21 before they could marry (and it looks likely that they were related to each other, maybe cousins, given Sarah's maiden name.)

So, at least this confirms that I have the right William Lloyd, but doesn't help with Susanna. I suppose I could always order a death certificate.

[Merry]

Well done.

Have you been able to see anything likely for William Lloyd in 1861?

[kiterunner]

I spent a while following a few red herrings! But no, not found him after 1851.

[Merry]

For what it's worth, Eliz Veal/Phillimore married Wm Frost in 1864 and lived in Reading. There's a death in 1903 but she's a bit young (63). I've not checked anything in between except the 1871 census to make sure it was the right Elizabeth. Father was Edward Veal on the transcribed marriage entry on Ancestry.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Merry. I had already found that. Probably at the same time that you found it! Also Edward Gray Veal died in Kentucky in 1839 (or that was when and where he was last heard from), and his widow Mary Ann was granted administration of his estate in 1872 when she was living in Notting Hill, so I found likely entries for her on some of the censuses but she never had Susanna or William with her.

[kiterunner]

And I also looked up John and Mary Lloyd (William's parents) on the later censuses but William wasn't with them although some of his brothers were. In 1881 Philip was in a lodging house and John jr in an asylum and I think both John and Mary had died by then (Mary was a widow in 1871).

[Merry]

In 1851 the address for Wm Lloyd and Elizabeth Phillimore was 7 Burrows Mews, John St West, Southwark and Wm's occ was 'carrier'.

There is a list of bankrupts in the Liverpool Mercury 10 December 1863 which includes:

Lloyd, W., Burrow's Mews, Blackfriars Road, butcher's carrier

Looking at the 1861 census, I see there is a William Lloyd now living at number 8 Burrows Mews. His age has been (I think) mistranscribed by fmp (haven't looked at Ancestry) as 27, but it looks like 37 to me! He is a cattle dealer and says he is married but no wife with him. There is a servant named Susanna Giles aged 21 at the same address.

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1861%2f0312%2f00391a&parentid=gbc%2f1861%2f0002016555&highlights=%22%22

[kiterunner]

Oooh, interesting! Thanks, Merry.

[kiterunner]

Yes, I think the age could well be 37.