Brain ache! How many Robert Hornimans? [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

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Merry

22-01-13, 11:39

Link to this thread added to earliest Robert H on BK6

I don't know whether I will have made sense of this by the end of the post, or not, but trying to do it in my head isn't working...........I'm trying to work out when these various people died.

Robert 1

Born - date/place unknown
Married Bridget - date/place unknown
Two known children bap 1702 and 1705 in Abingdon Berkshire

Robert 2

Son of Robert 1 - Baptised 1705 Abingdon
Married Elizabeth - date/place unknown
Nine known children - I only have baps for three - 1727, 1732 and 1742.

Robert 3

Son of Robert 2 - Baptised 1727 Abingdon
Married 1) Rebecca - date/place unknown
Rebecca was buried 1764 Abingdon
Married 2) Dinah Quarrington 1765 Abingdon
One known child with Rebecca bap 1763
Four known children with Dinah bap 1766, 1767, 1771 and 1776

Robert 4

Son of Robert 3 and Rebecca - Bap 1763 Abingdon

Robert 5

Son of Robert 3 and Dinah - Bap 1767 Abingdon
This Robert was apprenticed to William Thompson, glazier of St Marylebone, in 1780.

To the best of my knowledge these Roberts did not have any other relatives named Robert in Abingdon at the same time as they were living.

Here are the bits of information I have about dead Roberts:

NBI entries (kindly given to me by ElizabethHerts, but I did wonder if I copied them correctly?!)
Burial 17th May 1764 Abingdon
Burial 27th Oct 1779 Abingdon

LMA burial May 1781 at St Marylebone

Oxford Journal
Oct 1775 - Auction to be held on the 16/17th Oct of the household goods of Mrs Bathurst of Ock Street Abingdon and the "effects of Robert Horniman senior dec'd"... "which are removed there for the convenience of sale". It is not clear which items belonged to which of the above people -
A long list of household effects, two fat hogs, a cart, two horses and three hay stacks.
Two tenements in Thames St Abingdon currently rented by Benjamin Goodluck and Benjamin Butler.
Slaughterhouse/brewhouse in Turnagain Lane, Abingdon, late in the occupation of Robert Horniman, senr, dec'd.
Ock mill, now in the occupation of John Horniman (brother of Robert 3 - he seems to have moved from Abingdon to Reading in 1776)
Two houses and two double spinning houses a load more business accomodation in Winsmore Lane Abingdon.

Oxford Journal
Dec 1778 - Sale of estates belonging to "Robert Horniman of Abingdon Berks dec'd" -
Ock Mill
Cottage called The Windmill
Shop and house in Butcher's Row Abingdon and slaughterhouse/brewhouse in Turnagain Lane, Abingdon (the last two "currently in the occupation of Robert Horniman, Butcher").
A house in Thames St Abingdon currently rented by Benjamin Goodluck and Benjamin Butler.

The Times
Jan 1796 - The creditors of Robert Horniman the elder, butcher, dec'd of Abingdon, Berkshire are asked to send their claims to Mr Goode of 45 Howland St Fitzroy Sq London.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the 1764 NBI entry must surely be for Robert 4 and possibly the St Marylebone entry is for Robert 5. After that I get confused, particularly with who was described as the elder or senior and who else was alive at the same time!!

I have checked the newspaper dates are correct from the images rather than the transcriptions and looked for PCC wills (none) and that's about it so far, as I keep going round and round! Can you help me please? :o:o:o

Time for lunch! :D

kiterunner

22-01-13, 11:55

Richard Horniman, son of Robert Horniman of Abingdon, Berks, butcher, was apprenticed to Samuel Walker, citizen of London, 6 Sep 1758. Probably doesn't help but I presume he is a son of Robert 2?

ElizabethHerts

22-01-13, 12:01

You copied the burials OK, Merry.
Both at St Nicholas, Abingdon.
The 1764 one is spelt HORNYMAN.

kiterunner

22-01-13, 12:02

Oh, and here are some more apprenticeship records which you may or may not have:

Robt Horniman of Abingdon Berks butcher, apprentice John Collingwood, duty paid Fryday 7 June 1765.
Robt Horniman of Abingdon Berks butcher, apprentice Thos Horniman, duty paid Fryday 7 June 1765.

It doesn't actually state in the records (on ancestry) whether it is the same Robt in both cases but neither is senior or junior or anything.

Merry

22-01-13, 12:04

Yes, he is one of the unbaptised sons of Robert 2! His age at death (81 in 1820) suggests he was born about 1739, but he was probably a bit younger given the date of the apprenticeship.

Merry

22-01-13, 12:05

You copied the burials OK, Merry.
Both at St Nicholas, Abingdon.
The 1764 one is spelt HORNYMAN.

Thanks!

kiterunner

22-01-13, 12:07

kiterunner

22-01-13, 12:08

So in 1768 there were at least two adult Roberts alive, and we know one of them was Robert 3.

ElizabethHerts

22-01-13, 12:08

Oh dear, I tried searching for Robert Hornyman on Google, but got lots of inappropriate sites!:D

Merry

22-01-13, 12:14

Robt Horniman of Abingdon Berks butcher, apprentice John Collingwood, duty paid Fryday 7 June 1765.
Robt Horniman of Abingdon Berks butcher, apprentice Thos Horniman, duty paid Fryday 7 June 1765.

I have Thomas H as the son of Robert 2 and Elizabeth (no baptism though), mainly because someone compiling a tree in about 1880 had a Thomas fitting in at that point and they didn't have the benefit of the internet etc! I have a newspaper cutting from 1769 stating his residence as Abingdon, his occ as butcher and his wife's name, Ann. I also have a marriage in the same year at St Marylebone to Dorothy Coster, which I suppose probably isn't him!

Merry

22-01-13, 12:21

Poll Books etc have Robert Horniman, junior, Butcher, listed for 1768:
UK Poll Books and Electoral Registers (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2410&iid=32969_636672_1904-00012&fn=Robert&ln=Horniman&st=d&ssrc=&pid=6512502)

Thanks - I'd not looked at those!

So in 1768 there were at least two adult Roberts alive, and we know one of them was Robert 3.

Surely we only know there was one alive in 1768? (Robert 3 having children). Robert 1 is surely dead, Robert 2 could be dead (couldn't he? - or are we saying too many people died in the 1770s to make that likely?!) and the others are not yet born/adult.

Oh dear, I tried searching for Robert Hornyman on Google, but got lots of inappropriate sites!:D

lol! I wondered who might say that!

Merry

22-01-13, 12:22

Doh! I get it now....Robert JUNIOR in the poll book!

kiterunner

22-01-13, 12:26

There is a Berkshire Probate Name Index available on CD, but it costs £25! :eek:

http://www.berkshirerecordoffice.org.uk/news/2012/may/probate-name-index-available/

Merry

22-01-13, 12:29

So, two adults alive in 1768.

One dies by 1775 (robert senior, father of the one in the poll book?)
Another dies by 1778? or is that the same man and they are having trouble selling his estate?
Could the 1779 death be Robert 3 and the 1796 death Robert 4 perhaps? *takes two Panadol*!

Merry

22-01-13, 12:31

There is a Berkshire Probate Name Index available on CD, but it costs £25! :eek:

http://www.berkshirerecordoffice.org.uk/news/2012/may/probate-name-index-available/

Hmmmmmm......I'd probably rather not know who died when!

Oh, I could look for the death duty entry for the 1796 man.....Don't suppose it will help, but it's free as I have a sub!

kiterunner

22-01-13, 12:33

I suppose it's possible the year is wrong on the NBI for that 1779 burial?

kiterunner

22-01-13, 12:37

Merry

22-01-13, 12:40

I suppose it's possible the year is wrong on the NBI for that 1779 burial?

Hmmm....The newspaper entries in the 1770s are 14th Oct 1775 (so if the 1779 burial should say 1775 then he probably wasn't yet dead when they wrote the column!) and 19th Dec 1778 (I suppose it could be a year out :()

I usually tend to imagine the year is the most reliable part of the date!

Merry

22-01-13, 12:45

Er, this may put a fly in the ointment - FamilySearch has a baptism for Robt Hurnyman 25 Dec 1736 St Nicholas, Abingdon, Berkshire, father Robt Hurnyman.

(Will you have to renumber them all now, Merry? :d )

lol! No!

I guess that means Robert 3 didn't live to be an adult and I no longer have to worry about him apparently waiting until his mid-30s to marry for the first time. Now I can have him dying before 1736 and his new younger brother (Robert 3.5 :rolleyes:) being b 1736 and marrying in his mid-20s :)

Thanks Kate :)

I dred to think what they did with all these non-buried corpses, given they were butchers ;(;(;(

Merry

22-01-13, 12:46

I bet more baps will turn up for the other missing children now you're looking, Kate!!.......:D

kiterunner

22-01-13, 12:49

Sorry, I went back to the poll books / electoral registers for 1768 and found a Robert Hurniman of Abingdon:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2410&iid=32969_636672_1902-00021&fn=Robert&ln=Hurniman&st=d&ssrc=&pid=6593163

kiterunner

22-01-13, 12:52

And feeding Hurniman back into FamilySearch, there is another variation Herniman (Martha Herniman baptised 9 Dec 1742 St Nicholas Abingdon, parents Robert and Elizabeth.)

Edit - looking back at your first post, I guess you already have that one?

kiterunner

22-01-13, 13:03

Have you seen this, Merry?

Oxford Journal Sat 17 Aug 1771
All Persons indebted to the Estate and Effects of the late William Quarrentine, of Abingdon in the County of Berks, Barge master, deceased, are desired to pay in their respective Debts immediately to Mrs Diana Herniman, Wife of Robert Herniman, junior, of Abingdon in the said County of Berks, Butcher, or Mrs Sarah Taylor, Daughter of Mr William Taylor, at the Town Hall in Oxford, joint Executrix's of the said William Quarrentine's Effects.

(very early example of the greengrocer's apostrophe there!)

So in 1771 Robert 3 was Robert jr.

Merry

22-01-13, 13:06

Yes, I have Robert 3 (1727) Elizabeth (1732) and Martha (1742) and now Robert 3.5 (1736)

I also should be able to fit in:

Richard died 1820 apparently aged 81
Mary, who married Wm Thompson, died 1802
Thomas who I thought maried Dorothy Coster at St Marylebone in 1769 until I saw the paper said his wife was called Ann later that year.
John who lived at Ock Mill for a while and moved to Reading. (Married in 1770)
Sarah who married James Taylor at St Marylebone in 1782
William who may be a figment of someones imagination!

These children appeared on the 1880 tree and I've been able to show that most of them did exist, but have not been able to tie them firmly to Robert 2.

Merry

22-01-13, 13:09

kiterunner

22-01-13, 13:11

No, I'd not seen that. Thanks. Odd that Mrs Sarah Taylor ought by rights to be the dau of Robert Horniman (see my last post!) Perhaps a coincidence?

Maybe it means "daughter in law" when it says "daughter".

Edit - never mind, your Sarah wasn't married to Mr Taylor in 1771 anyway. Yes, just a coincidence.

Merry

22-01-13, 13:16

lol Oh no! That's what comes of thinking dates can be remembered!

kiterunner

22-01-13, 13:33

Reading back through this thread (several times), I think Robert 2 (baptised 1705) must be the one who died in 1775 and Robert 3.5 (the one baptised 1736) should be the one who died in 1796. But that doesn't explain the 1779 one, does it?

Could the one in 1779 be a relative who maybe wasn't from Abingdon but was buried there?

Merry

22-01-13, 13:41

I have just been to the loft and got out the 1880 tree (11 A2 pages!)

There are dates of birth? (baptism?) for all the children of Robert and Elizabeth and now I have the same date as they do for Robert 3.5!

They have Robert 3 bap 14th May 1727 (I hadn't spotted this before as it's not in the right place on the sheet, being squeezed in afterwards by the look of it) and him dying 25th Oct 1730

They have Robert 2 buried 3rd March 1775 which ties in with the first newspaper record.

They have Robert 3.5 being baptised with the date you found, Kate (I had thought they were wrong before!) and a date of death (not burial) of 7th October 1779, which ties in with the NBI entry and presumably means the two 1770s Oxford Journal entries are both for the same person? (Robert 2)

They don't know what happened to Robert 5 who went to London.

So, did Robert 5 die in Marylebone in 1781 or did he live to be the person in The Times in 1796?

Am I getting somewhere?

Merry

22-01-13, 13:45

Hmmm...I agree it would make more sense if Robert 3.5 died in 1796 - esp if his son didn't die in Marylebone in 1781 (there were other Hornimans about in London at that time, so it could be someone else) making it easier for him to be "the elder".

Merry

22-01-13, 13:50

Dinah Quarrington, the second wife of Robert 3.5, was born about 1740 and apparently had her last child in 1776. It would make more sense if her husband died in 1779 than if he lived on until 1796. I might have expected more children, but it's only a minor point I suppose.

Merry

22-01-13, 13:52

So, did Robert 5 die in Marylebone in 1781 or did he live to be the person in The Times in 1796?

Robert 5 was apprenticed to a glazier so he shouldn't have returned to Abingdon to be a butcher in order to die in 1796!

And IF (a big one) Robert 3.5 died in Oct 1779 then who is the person who died in 1796?

Shona

22-01-13, 14:02

kiterunner

22-01-13, 14:03

Did you find anything in the Index to Death Duties Register for the 1796 one, Merry?

Merry

22-01-13, 14:07

Did you find anything in the Index to Death Duties Register for the 1796 one, Merry?

No, I searched several court for 1796-1799.

Merry

22-01-13, 14:11

There are some public trees on Ancestry.

Robert Horniman
Born: 1705
Died: 1775
Spouse: Elizabeth Gering
Parents: Robert Hurniman/Herniman and Bridget Kerby

Robert Horniman
Born: 1736
Died: 7 October 1779
Spouse: Dina Quarrington
Parents: Robert Horniman and Elizabeth Gering/Geering

Thanks Shona. This tree from the loft has Elizabeth Geering as Robert 2's wife, but no exact dates. The whole tree is very lacking in place names.

Shona

22-01-13, 14:17

Robt Horniman buried in London on 29 May 1781. Here's the image.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1624&iid=31280_194650-00246&fn=Robt&ln=Horniman&st=d&ssrc=&pid=300785

Shona

22-01-13, 14:18

Shona

22-01-13, 14:29

Freedom of the City of London Admission papers 1758

Richard Horniman son of Robert Horniman of Abingdon in the County of Berks, Butcher

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=2052&path=1760-1786.1765+Sep+-+1766+Apr.740&sid=&gskw=Richard+Horniman

The 'terms and conditions' are worth checking out. :)

Merry

22-01-13, 14:57

Robt Horniman buried in London on 29 May 1781. Here's the image.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1624&iid=31280_194650-00246&fn=Robt&ln=Horniman&st=d&ssrc=&pid=300785

Yes, that's the one I think may belong to Robert 5, but it's difficult to be certain.

Freedom of the City of London Admission papers 1758

Richard Horniman son of Robert Horniman of Abingdon in the County of Berks, Butcher

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=2052&path=1760-1786.1765+Sep+-+1766+Apr.740&sid=&gskw=Richard+Horniman

The 'terms and conditions' are worth checking out. :)

OH was laughing at those yesterday!

kiterunner

22-01-13, 16:08

I wonder whether the 1796 Robert Horniman could have actually died in 1795 since the Times announcement is from Jan 1796. Would probate already have been granted on his estate before Mr Goode placed the advert, or would he have to find the creditors before being given probate?

Merry

22-01-13, 16:58

All of that is exactly the conversation I had with OH yesterday. He thought probate would not have been sought until after the creditors details were known. This didn't help!

Merry

22-01-13, 18:42

Cripes - this person isn't on the Victorian tree:

name: Thomas Hurniman Or Belcher
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 18 May 1760
baptism/christening place: WEST ILSLEY,BERKSHIRE,ENGLAND
father's name: Robert Hurniman
mother's name: Dolotheia Belcher
indexing project (batch) number: P01975-1
system origin: England-ODM

I suppose he's most likely the son of Robert 3.5?

kiterunner

22-01-13, 19:04

Could be.

Phoenix

22-01-13, 19:58

I don't think Death Duty collection was particularly efficient in the early years. I have several 1796 - 1800 deaths where I know wills were made but no records for tax purposes. I think too that there were various exemptions, so "all to my beloved wife" would probably escape.

crawfie

24-01-13, 13:47

Don't know if this will help you but

Robert Horniman of Abingdon married Elizabeth Gering of Abingdon at Oxford St Aldate on 13 oct 1731.

Robert Horniman of Reading married Hannah Smith of Witney at Witney Quaker on 2 Jan 1821.

Merry

24-01-13, 13:49

Thank you Crawfie.

I have the Quaker record already (Hannah Smith was my 4xg-aunt!), but please could you tell me the source of the other entry?

crawfie

24-01-13, 13:52

From the Oxford Parish Marriage Index CD, Oxford FHS - I have this one as I have a lot from Oxford!

The only other Hornimans on the disc were 1 entry for Thomas and 1 for Elizabeth, both in the 1700's. Let me know if you want them.

kiterunner

24-01-13, 13:55

Hmmm, so maybe Robert 2 was married twice?

Merry

24-01-13, 13:57

Oooh, yes please. :) EDIT to Crawfie for the other entries!

That's interesting that the Horniman/Gering marriage was after the birth of Robert 3. Looking at this Victorian tree, they have Robert marrying two Elizabeth's (Gering/Geering and (previously) Goddard) - no dates for either event and no burial for the first Elizabeth, though they do have her as the mother of Robert 3 but not of the other later children. This marriage, potentially to the second Elizabeth, suggests that might be correct!

Thanks again :):):)

crawfie

24-01-13, 14:04

Elizabeth Horniman (no parish) to Thomas Brown (no parish ) at Oxford St Giles 27 Jan 1799.

Thomas Horniman (no parish) to Hannah Brewerton (no parish) at Oxford St Cross 24 Dec 1792.

I checked for all spellings, but only found this one.

Merry

24-01-13, 14:10

That's great - thanks Crawfie.

I know who the second couple are, but the first couple are a mystery! (Another one! lol)

Thanks again :)

Uncle John

24-01-13, 20:18

What you need is a good strong pot of Horniman's tea!

Merry

24-01-13, 20:44

lol UJ!! I'm just having some whisky on Shona's haggis thread. All my TT relatives will be turning in their graves!!

HarrysMum

26-01-13, 10:36

Merry......I haven't been around much lately. Moved house and now it's just pouring rain while trying to move furniture....lol
But...if you think I can look at anything, email me.

I really could do with a diversion.