View Full Version : i missed you all so much
hi all, bidston here, i was on this forum about a year ago and found you guys so helpful and so knowledgeable, you helped me so much, for which i am eternally grateful
anyway, i hit a brick wall and could see no way of progressing so i thought i should stop wasting your time and give up for the time being
have since made contact with a cousin whom i have never met or even heard of and she is retired now and wanting to look up her family history, part of which is mine also
i have given her all i have and made the most important suggestion of joining this forum as this is undoubtedly the best available, no bull
have checked a few times and she has not joined, maybe she's a bit shy, but she is getting some results,so i thought i would post them on here and see if any of you guys can take it any further
here goes - i discovered the marriage details of our great grandparents
martin and mary walch 11 june 1861 everton, liverpool
but she has discovered a catholic church entry for st francis xavier 1861 which gives a lot of detail in latin, martins parents - john walsh, bootmaker, deceased and alice walsh, witnesses john bulger and mary maher
this has led to an entry for 1861, 29 gilbert street, liverpool
alice walsh - widow age 40
edward walsh, 20, son, bootmaker
mary ann maher, sister age 50 ( witness )
john bulger, 34 ( witness )
there is also an 1871 entry for the 2 sisters at 7 jenkinson street, liverpool
alice walsh, 50, widow, boot closer
mary ann mar , 57 servant, both born dublin
this is the first discovery of my great great grandmothers names, can anyone find a marriage or death for john walsh, i know the dublin connection means a dead end, many thanks for any help, cheers
Hi bidston
Do you have the details of Mary's parents as well and their ages?
Have you a census ref for Martin and Mary after their marriage?
sorry merry, forgot about mary, her parents were william walch - tailor, deceased and mary walch, have found mary only with two children in 1871 in whitchurch,martin was journeyman, bootmaker so he may have been at work, the whole family is there in 1881 at green end whitchurch which has the first entry for my gran sarah, cheers
Obviously we don't know which country John Welsh died in, but looking at England 1851-1861 there are 97 possibles in Lancashire, 8 of those are in West Derby and 29 in Liverpool districts.
Those places are not covered by Lancs BMD yet.
oh dear, one of the problems with the name is it is sometimes spelled walch, walsh, welch or welsh, not easy
There are 11 matches in the Liverpool Catholic burials, so I'll look at those to see what info they give.
I presume you don't have an Ancestry sub and/or don't know if the other lady has done this already?
west derby seems to be the area that crops up all the time
not sire what norma has subscribed to, thanks for looking
Well maybe you could ask her! lol
I've looked at those 11 and one is aged 37 in 1854 living at Midghall (?) St, Parisgh of St Anthony's Liverpool. No occ recorded. All the rest are either children or 20 years+ older than Alice, not that that discounts them entirely. The 37 year old probably only has a slim chance of being the right person too!
Of course I've only been looking at spelling Wal?h, but I guess Wel?h is also a possibility!
oh dear, one of the problems with the name is it is sometimes spelled walch, walsh, welch or welsh, not easy
Missed that post.
Yes and he might have died in Ireland!
If this was my tree I wouldn't be looking!!
For info, here's two old threads merged together with more information about Martin Welsh;
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=3411&highlight=martin+walsh
What were the addresses on the 1861 marriage cert?
Tilly Mint
28-01-12, 08:58
Bidston, my grandmothers name was Mary Walsh daughter of John born approx 1891 she married Bernard Finegan - son of Ann Mullaney.......this is where i have run a mile a few times....so many Walsh's in the Everton area of the city...
On one of the other threads, you say this "can't read the address for martin but is liverpool, mary's is maybe kirkstaff road, everton, cant read witnesses" ......Could this read KIRKDALE Rd ?
Sorry i can't help.....i have a real hard time with this Walsh line....Lol
Can you throw any light on the census data that shows in 1861 Edward Walsh aged 20 b Ireland, but in 1881 Martin Walsh aged 42 b Liverpool?
hi merry, don;t have cert with me so only know everton district, to tilly mint, yes could be kirkdale road, major thoroughfare in everton, give me a few more details on your walsh's please
yes, only just got that info yesterday, have always got martin on every detail and entry as liverpool, why a brother so close in age is born ireland i can't imagine
Just doing some cross referencing.
These births:
Martin Welsh Jul-Aug-Sep 1841 Liverpool Lancashire
Martin Welsh Apr-May-Jun 1842 Liverpool Lancashire
probably match these baps:
Twin Martin Welsh b 28 Sep 1841 bap 3 Oct 1841 St Mary´s parents Edward Welsh, Mary Welsh
Martin Welsh b 31 Mar 1842 bap 17 Apr 1842 St Anthony´s parents James,
Bridget Pinkevff
Though the first one was registered very quickly, it is the right one, as the other twin (Luke) was bap with same details and registered on the same page.
Tilly Mint
28-01-12, 09:41
My "nin" was very close to her cousin Ellen Dean, i think i have her living with George Dean and his family in the 1911 - i'm not positive though....so do the Dean's pop up in your tree? Mary had a serious accident which left her with serious leg problems - i wonder if this now shows up on the 1911 in the infirmity part?
John Walsh is listed as a labourer on thier marriage cert, this took place in St Francis Xaviers........they all went to this school and church
Do you have Martin's death registration/cert?
hi merry, according to the church record of martin's marriage his parents were john and alice, i don't know martins death but he was alive after the first world war as my cousin who has appeared tells a story of an old aunt who went to visit them at their house in liverpool and found them both on their knees in the kitchen at prayer, must have been an age then
Oh, that's a shame as I thought I had a very good match for Mary in 1911 but she is a widow!
I thought one of thse would be Martin;
Deaths Mar 1907
WELSH Martin 68 West Derby 8b 431
Deaths Sep 1908
WALSH Martin 61 W. Derby 8b 300
Deaths Mar 1909
WALSH Martin 76 W. Derby 8b 237
The only suitable post 1918 deaths for Martin are completely out of area.
there is an entry for deaths - sept quarter 1919, age 70 in west derby, might be him
Erm he married young then!!!!!!!!!!
yes, he should be 79 but his age is all over the place on every census, so i don't know
there is an entry for deaths - sept quarter 1919, age 70 in west derby, might be him
Or it might be the 62-year-old accountant on the 1911 census in West Derby!
nobody in our family can add up as you have probably realised
The Mary I found in 1911 says she had been married for 50 years with nine children, six surviving, and was born Johnstown, Co Kilkenny, Ireland. Her address is 23 Atwell Street Everton. She is 74, but that sounds a better match for an 1861 marriage than being 54 in 1901 which is what both Mary and Martin were recorded as on that census!
nobody in our family can add up as you have probably realised
pmsl!!
Though people say you can't trust an age on a death cert because the person who knows best is dead, I have usually found ages at death to be pretty reliable!
mary had eight children according to 1881 census, she was from kilkenny and she was married in 1861 so that is 50 years, my cousin thought she was in 126 field street everton for both 1901 1911, but that sounds better
Oh if they are at the same address in both then I have the wrong one!
I had 126 Field St in 1901 (both aged 54).
Jus going to check Field St in 1911..................
Tilly Mint
28-01-12, 10:31
126 field street everton...Thats my lot..they were also in 113 Field St...lol
These are the people at 126 Field St in 1911:
HALLIGAN, Lily
ALISTEE, James
DAVIES, John
TURNER, Patrick
DURKIN, Patrick
FORD, Patrick
MARNEY, Thomas
HERBERT, James
MORLEY, William
O NIEL, James
BREMNEN, William
WILSON, Thomas
WILSON, John
SCALAN, Joseph
FERGUSON, James
FREEMAN, Morris
maybe you could check whether your contact definitely said 126 for both censuses? I can check a different number if you need me to.
126 field street everton...Thats my lot..they were also in 113 Field St...lol
Oh, I'll check 113 then? (Tilly, do you have your in 1911?)
113 Field St. Five families called:
Burns
McShane
Ford
Bradley
Sharkey
I'm only doing all this to try and establish Martin's age to try and help with his parents as in your original request (in case you were thinking it wasn't what you asked about!!)
Tilly Mint
28-01-12, 10:44
I only have the 1911 with Mary Walsh with the Mc Grath's...but on other paperwork i have them at both numbers...1926 was 113 Field St
I'm best to back off now....i may be confusing Bidstons "look up"....lol
don't worry, it is all very helpful, might have been on a wrong track for a while here, i need to clarify it
i think originally thought it was them because of son william, in 1881 age 5, in 1891 age 15,a messenger and 1901 age 24 now a bricklayer, this might have thrown me off
I only have the 1911 with Mary Walsh with the Mc Grath's
In the same household?
i think originally thought it was them because of son william, in 1881 age 5, in 1891 age 15,a messenger and 1901 age 24 now a bricklayer, this might have thrown me off
Yes, that's the people I have. William was b in Shropshire which separates him from all the other Wm Welch/Walshs (etc) in Liverpool. It's 1911 that's the difficult one!
I'd say so. Only think wrong is M & M's ages as 54. Birthplaces, occ and child's birthplace all fit.
Tilly Mint
28-01-12, 11:17
In the same household?
Yes, Mary is with George Dean - Lionel Street
Just to throw a spanner in the works - we had a Martin...but i dont know where he fits in!
George Dean or George McGrath? (you said McGrath before!)
so is the story about them at prayer during the war correct, or if he claims 54 ( the old rogue ) in 1901, then the death in 1919 would make him claim 72, a bit nearer the 70 on record
George Dean or George McGrath? (you said McGrath before!)
Ah, Dean....that Mary Walsh is only 20!
blimey tilly, tell me you fit in so i can focus, are you descended from john and alice, martins father and mother
so is the story about them at prayer during the war correct, or if he claims 54 ( the old rogue ) in 1901, then the death in 1919 would make him claim 72, a bit nearer the 70 on record
I still think the accountant fits the death better, plus where are Martin and Mary in 1911? And what about Mary the widow with a lot of correct details?
Do you have the marriage certs for any of their children?
Tilly Mint
28-01-12, 11:26
I've got no idea Bidston....i gave up ages ago...Lol - i need to get back to it though...ARGH !!
yes, have details for sarah who is my mothers mother, will that help
sarah ann walsh to patrick dunne, addresses are 37 hunter street and 9 hunter street
But you don't have any marriage certs for any children between 1911 and 1919?
(I keep thinking about your thread title - Are you still missing us?!!!!!! lol)
no, no certs, still missing a few things methinks
Tilly Mint
28-01-12, 12:35
Will i put my grandmothers m cert info on - 1915...or is it just confusing things.......
Any reason I can't find Patrick and Sarah in 1911? (I was only looking to see if they were living near that Mary Walsh!)
none that i know of, the family was moving to rothwell street, west derby, around that time, half the family lived there
email just received from my cousin
Martin's mum's name was Alice and her sister Mary Ann is shown as unmarried on both 1861 and 1871 census' her name was spelled differently, probably phonetically but appears to be Maher or Mahon, so yes Alice's maiden name must have been the same. As far as I know the family were staunchly Catholic so Alice and John would almost certainly have been married in church and before they had any family. What do you think? I can't find them under Catholic marriages on the ancestry site but I will keep on looking. It could just be them tho. John was also a bootmaker journeyman so they may have been married elsewhere - more possibilities.
Thelma Richards (our cousin) who lived in the general shop in Rothwell Street told me her mum, auntie Hilda, recalled seeing her grandparents - Martin and Mary Walsh down on their knees saying their prayers. That was in their house which was in Hughes Street at that time and must have been about the end of WW1. As you know the 1911 census shows them living in Field Street off William Henry Street so they must have moved house after then. I haven't found a way to check the address in Hughes St but I'm still looking. At least now we have some more information to help us. I wondered if Martin had a shop in Field St and they lived above the premises. Thelma also recalls being told by auntie Hilda that there was someone in the family - a shoe or bootmaker - who went to live in Manchester and opened a business there that did very well. I wish I had asked the right questions of our rels when they were still with us still...
I have had another harder look for Martin on the 1911 census, but I still can't find him.
As you know the 1911 census shows them living in Field Street off William Henry Street so they must have moved house after then.
Do you think she mean to say 1901?
I wondered if Martin had a shop in Field St and they lived above the premises.
Maybe, but the 1901 does list him as an employee rather than own account or employer.
I think you need to access Hughes St Everton on the post WW1 Electoral rolls to see if you can spot anyone from the family. When was Hilda born?
have emailed my cousin to ask why she is convinced they were there
There 30 pages of army service papers on Ancestry for William Welsh b abt 1876 Whitchurch Shropshire which should be your Wm.
don't know where hilda was born, will ask
have passed on the info on william, i know norma is on ancestry so she be able to look at them, thanks for that
The 1919 death isn't your Martin as there is a probate record for that one and he is a company secretary of 29 Glenwyllin Road, Waterloo, Liverpool. That's the address of the accountant in 1911.
shame, no further forward with martin, have found an entry for a death in 1854 at st anthony's church, john walsh age 37, date and age look right
I've looked at those 11 and one is aged 37 in 1854 living at Midghall (?) St, Parisgh of St Anthony's Liverpool. No occ recorded. All the rest are either children or 20 years+ older than Alice, not that that discounts them entirely. The 37 year old probably only has a slim chance of being the right person too!
shame, no further forward with martin, have found an entry for a death in 1854 at st anthony's church, john walsh age 37, date and age look right
Yes, the same one! I didn't realise you had access to those records. Hopefully the occupation and name of the informant on the cert would establish if he is the one or not.
There are around 15 John Walshs of the right age for that burial in Liverpool in 1851 (but I still can't see yours!). One of those is a shoemaker (aged 34 in 1851), but his wife is Mary and wrong children.
I looked in 'Gore's Directory of Liverpool & its Environs, 1853' and there was one John Walsh boot and shoemaker at 72 Titchfield St, but he is on the 1851 census aged 40, wife Mary.
Nothing helpful under the other spellings.
I have looked at all the 1851 John W?l?h entries in Liverpool and checked their addresses. None of those I looked at were in Midghall Street. Midghall St is showing on the 1851 census on FMP, but I don't have a sub so can't easily look at that actual street to see if there are any really badly mistranscribed families.
I forgot about http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:Liverpool_Registration_Distr ict,_1851_Census_Street_Index_L-O
Midghall Street HO 107/2179 261-274, 278-280
Midghall Street HO 107/2178 736-746
thanks merry, will take a look
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