1841 Census Help Please

[tenterfieldjulie]

Unfortunately my 3xgrtgrandfather's name was Richard Smith. We know he was baptised 14 October 1770 Tonbridge, Kent to parents Robert & Ann (Saxby). He married by licence (signed) 3 Oct 1793 at Speldhurst, Kent to Lucy Avery. Barden farm where Richard grew up is part in Speldhurst and part Bidborough. Richard and Lucy had 7 children baptised Bidborough between 1794 and 1808 and then 1811 and 1814 at Tunbridge Wells. Lucy was buried 25/6/1832 aged 57 (according to a family source). On free Reg it said 20/6/1832 Dartford, Kent. The story goes that after Lucy died he went to pieces and disappeared. Now the problem is finding his burial over the next 20 odd years, as there are about 80 Richard Smith's buried in Kent in that time frame. I have found 3 at Tunbridge and 3 at Ticehurst, where Lucy's mother's family were.
What I am hoping is that some clever person can find Richard in the 1841 census, he would be around 70-75. He was a farrier, but possibly a farmer and ag labourer too. I hope this may indicate where his burial may be.

[Nell]

Sorry Julie.

Ancestry is being a pain. When I asked for all Richard Smiths living in Kent it says "no matches found" and when I ask for Richard Smith it has got nearly 3,000 including ones living in Kent. I can't seem to narrow down the search. I'll try again later unless someone else is more successful.

[Nell]

Grr! Got a list of Smiths in Kent at last but now when I click to see the individual records it gives me that scary boy with a rope and says "check again later".

[Langley Vale Sue]

Sorry Julie, I'm having the same problem as Nell. :(

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks girls for trying .. too many looking for too many Smiths lol

[ElizabethHerts]

Hi Julie, is this him?

1841 Census
SMITH, Richard
TONBRIDGE, Kent
HO107 piece 463 folio 9/31 page 10
Mount Sion Sackville Cottage, Tonbridge, Tonbridge Wells

Richard Smith 75 Farrier
Richard Smith 45 Farrier
Mary Smith 50
Ann Smith 11

All born in Kent.

[Merry]

I was just going to suggest you give us the children's names!!

Why would the Dartford burial be the right one for Lucy? Her age is over 10 years out. If they had moved that far, then I think Richard could have gone anywhere - London, Surrey and Essx all being within a short distance!

Do you know anything more about the supposed burial 25th June 1832?

[tenterfieldjulie]

The Smith books don't give sources unfortunately. That is them in the 1841 - Elizabeth .. Many thanks!!. I've got a location .. wow
Children: Mary Ann bapt 1794 and Richard 1796 William 1798 Lucy 1800 m 1820 George Hopkins (shoemaker) John 1803 Robert 1805, Dedemiah 1808 m 1828 Edward Finch, Thomas 1811 and James 1814. Not sure who Ann 11 is. (Ann, Richard, Mary, Diedemiah, Sarah, Elizabeth are all siblings of Richard as well)
Merry, looking at the book it says Lucy Avery bapt 7/8/1773 (I've written Speldhurst) Buried 25/6/1832 age 57 at Speldhurst.

[tenterfieldjulie]

I only found the Dartford burial on Free Reg and the date fitted roughly. I'm not sure if Dartford is near Speldhurst. Tonbridge, Bidborough, Speldhurst are not far apart.

[Merry]

Given where the 1841 family are, I would ignore that burial as it's far more likely Lucy was buried locally.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Yes Dartford is about 25 miles away. Don't know why I can't find it at Speldhurst rabbits ..
There are deaths for Richard Smith at Tunbridge - Jun Q 1844 also Sep Q 1855.
Can I ask please if you can find a Richard Smith at Tunbridge in the 1851 Census? I presume the the death in 1844 is my ancestor, but it could be the son. I would really love to buy the death cert. Lucy's being in 1832 is too early for a cert isn't it?

[Merry]

In 1851 Richard jr (56) is b Speldhurst and his wife Mary (61) is from Burwash in Sussex. He is a farrier again. Do you think any of the records you have which state farmer might actually say farrier?

[tenterfieldjulie]

Merry the only records I had for him said he was a farrier. His father was a tenant (farmer) at Barden and I thought in his only age he could have become a farmer or ag lab. Obviously I was wrong.
That is a great help .. Richard the son carried on the trade and Mary is son's wife and Ann would be their child.
So the story of Richard the father going awal was wrong. He was with his son .. The books were printed in 1997 and 1998 so a lot more is available than there was then.
Your help is really appreciated Merry and Elizabeth.

[Merry]

I just got out of bed (10.20am!!), went downstairs and turned on the desktop 'puter so I could check the NBI, without checking to see is Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells is included (which it isn't!!)

It's freezing down here, so I may go back upstairs!!!

[ElizabethHerts]

1851 Census
SMITH, Richard
This looks like the son, but no-one old enough for Richard senior.

TUNBRIDGE, Kent
HO107 piece 1614 folio 118 page 8
Address: Sweeps Lane, Tunbridge, Tunbridge Wells
SMITH, Richard Head Married M 56 Farrier Speldhurst Kent
SMITH, Mary Wife Married F 61 Burwash Sussex
EVANS, Jane Servant Unmarried F 14 General Servant Goudhurst Sussex

[tenterfieldjulie]

Sorry about your freeze Merry. We finally have summer (about 2 months late).
Thanks Elizabeth, so they are not living at the same place as 1841. I tried googling Mount Sion Sackville Cottage Tonbridge but can't find it. I might find it on an old map when I get to Kent.

[Uncle John]

It's freezing down here, so I may go back upstairs!!!
Some of us have automatic C.H.!!

[Merry]

Some of us have automatic C.H.!!

We don't have our auto C.H. on until the evening! The last three days we haven't had it on at all (just lit coal fire).

[Janet]

Julie, Google "Mount Sion" "Sackville Cottage" "Tunbridge Wells" and you will find this:

http://www.netherwood68.freeserve.co.uk/bsbio.htm

Chapter 6: Retirement to East Grinstead

After visiting relatives in Holland, the SLIGHTs came to reside in East Grinstead on 1 October 1850. Their home, Sackville Cottage, was the last house at the eastern end of the High Street, its southern side parallel with the road and its northern side separated by a narrow footpath from the rear of Sackville College, a Jacobean almshouse of exquisite architectural beauty, founded in 1608 by Robert Sackville, second Earl of Dorset, for the shelter and maintenance of thirty poor and aged householders, under charge of a warden, not necessarily in holy orders, and two sub-wardens. The house had been built on a wedge of land released by the realignment of the road to Lewes i.e. on the site of the old road’s continuance. The rear gate of the College was between the front of the SLIGHTs' cottage and the next house in the High Street. Owned by a Richard Edwards at some time during its life, the cottage was therefore situated where the broad High Street narrowed and became Lewes Road and its front porch, on the western side of the house, faced back along the length of the High Street in line with the pavement on its north side. Immediately opposite, on the south side of the street, was the toll house and between was the turnpike Toll Gate, established about 1717 and removed in 1882. Still shown on the 1931 Ordnance Survey Map, Sackville Cottage, by then known as “Kennedy’s”, was acquired by the local authority in the 1950s or ‘60s and demolished to make way for road widening and a grassy verge, opening up the southern façade of the College to public view. The SLIGHTs rented this house and bought it outright in 1852.

[Janet]

Here you are. East Grinstead.

Click on thumbnail, then hit Control+ to make it bigger (Control 0 to return).

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Janet that is a wonderful read. I quickly read the book, Mr. Slight? started off around Kelso/Roxburgh where my mother's greatgrandmother came from, so there was some really interesting background there too. Really fascinating to think that Richard was at that house near the turnpike, maybe being farriers they were used to shoe the horses. It would be really interesting to find out more about the almshouses. I am confused that the Census said Tonbridge/Tunbrige Wells. East Grinstead is about 14 miles from there. Any ideas? I was thinking that he was in an almshouse, but in rereading it I think it was a rented property, otherwise his son, wife and daughter wouldn't be living there. I want to cry to think it was pulled down, "a Jacobean almshouse of exquisite architectural beauty" .. makes you want to weep.

[Janet]

Yes, it's confusing. Is East Grinstead part of the Tonbridge Registration District? I know they can cover a lot of territory. I was able to locate the family Elizabeth found on the 1851, but not the one on the 1841. Something wrong with my methods, I don't know what! Hope Elizabeth is onto the right family and that I haven't pointed you in the wrong direction with that website and map. The history is intrinsically interesting, but you want to know if it's your own family or not! Agree with you about the destruction of the "exquisite architectural beauty". What a shame.

[Merry]

Mount Sion is still a named street in (Royal) Tunbridge Wells. I have identified a couple of properties which are still standing (via Google maps/street images) and appear on the 1841 census in the same district as the Smiths, so I think the almshouse in East Grinstead must be a different property.

Lots of historic buildings were pulled down in the 1950s in the UK.

[ElizabethHerts]

Hi Julie and Janet, I've just seen this.

Julie, I have just e-mailed you!

This is the address from the 1841 Census:

Address: Mount Sion Sackville Cottage, Tonbridge, Tonbridge Wells

Tonbridge is just to the north of Tunbridge Wells. The Smith family I found were definitely living in the Tonbridge registration district. Whether they were in the town itself, or on the outskirts, I can't tell as there is no street name.

East Grinstead was a registration district in its own right until 1935 (from FreeBMD but it was in Sussex.

There is mention of Mount Sion in Tunbridge Wells itself, so I'm sure that the name occurs in other towns, not just one. It might be worth Julie consulting an old map, and if she e-mails the Kent Record Office they might be able to give her information about the cottage. They will have historical maps, I'm sure.


EDIT: See post below as they are in TUNBRIDGE WELLS not TONBRIDGE (blame FMP for confusing me!)

[Merry]

I don't know if this book would help?

http://www.phillimore.co.uk/acatalog/info_1860772633.html

[Merry]

Benjamin Slight is in his Sackville Cottage in East Grinstead in 1851:

HO107; Piece: 1641; Folio: 211; Page: 8

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=SSXHO107_1641_1641-0164&fn=Benjamin&ln=Slight&st=d&ssrc=&pid=1739366

[ElizabethHerts]

Aha, they aren't in TONBRIDGE.

THey are in Tunbridge Wells - FMP's transcription information is misleading.

If you look at the image it says
TUNBRIDGE WELLS MOUNT SION at the top of the columns.
Then at the top of the right-hand column where the Smiths are it has
MOUNT SION SACKVILLE COTTAGE

So disregard the information that appears on the transcription sheet of FMP! I thought from that they were living in Tonbridge, to the north of Tunbridge Wells!

There is still a road in TUnbridge Wells called Mount Sion. As Merry says, the cottages might have been pulled down, or might be called something else now.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks everyone .. I am so interested in everything about that region of Kent and Sussex. Getting goosebumps really because I stayed in Tunbridge Wells and wandered around in the Pantiles just before I came back to Aus. Found a wonderful second hand bookshop .. with lots of historic books and prints. Now I can't wait to get back there and delve further. The family of Robert Smith lived in TW before they emigrated. Will need to do more digging .. what a thrill to find Richard in 1841 yeah.. I cross posted with you Elizabeth. Even if I can find where the cottage was will be a thrill. Mount Sion and Mount Ephraim were two place names I recall from TW. I seem to remember that Mount Sion Road was quite a long road. Cheers.

[ElizabethHerts]

I have looked on the next page of images on the 1841 Census.

Several houses are mentioned - I have found one, Eden House, mentioned in the London Gazette in 1945.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/36906/pages/553/page.pdf

If we can locate that house, we will now that the cottages won't be far away.

Cumberland House is also mentioned on the same page.
I found this:

http://theweald.org/P2.asp?PId=TW.CumbH

It might help to pinpoint where the cottages were.

[ElizabethHerts]

A house called "Forest Prospect" is also named - there is a will for an Alfred Tulk living at that address on the National Archives website:

[no title] DS/67 20thC

Contents:
Photostat of:-
17th May, 1883. Original will of Alfred Tulk of Forest Prospect, Mount Sion, Tunbridge Wells, esq. Freehold house and grounds called Forest Prospect. Estate to be sold and proceeds invested in trust funds. Bequest to wife Agatha Tulk, and annuity in trust for six children. Probate, 9th June, 1891.


The cottage would be very close to these properties, one would assume.

[Merry]

Having played with the British grid co-ordinates on the Old Maps site, I am looking at Mount Sion in TW and have just come back here to ask Elizabeth if she could tell me other property names "next to" Sackville Cottage. I am actually looking right at Forest Prospect if that helps. (The map is 1867 - best I could get!). Marlborough house is one side and Brunswick house the other (both large properties)

I need to keep tweeking the co-ordinates to look up and down the street. Will post them here if I can find the right spot.

[Merry]

Forgot to say, I can't find any of this on Ancestry which is why I'm asking Elizabeth - not just being lazy!!!

[Merry]

Ooooh, I can see Sackville Cottage!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hang on, I need to tweek!!!!!

(I don't need those house names now, Elizabeth!!)

[ElizabethHerts]

Hi Merry, sorry to have been missing - I have been having a shower!

Ooh, how exciting.

[ElizabethHerts]

Merry, what is the website for the old maps site, please?

[Merry]

Go to the Old Maps site:

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html

Where it says Find a Map and SEARCH and COORDS, put these numbers in the COORDS boxes:

first box: 558400
second box: 138800

Hit 'Go'

The next screen should have a modern Ord Survey map of the right spot.

On the right there's a list of old maps. the first one is "1867 Town Plans Tunbridge Wells Kent 1:500". Click on the little picture of the map and the old map should load.

Click Enhanced Zoom and when that has loaded drag the map so you are looking at the top left corner of it. A property called Caxton Place (still exists!) should be right in the middle of the view. Sackville Cottage is within the same view, to the north and slightly east of Caxton Place. :)

[ElizabethHerts]

I found the site, Merry, and I'm on the map, but haven't found the cottage yet, but now I'll try it with the co-ordinates you have given me.

.... where is Julie?

[Merry]

A property called Caxton Place (still exists!)

I may be wrong about that - though a property called caxton House is there, it may be the property previously called Montague House or be the two joined together. Sion House is still there and the lane between them is now called Frog Lane.

[ElizabethHerts]

Found it! Fantastic, Merry. Is Julie still on line?

[Merry]

It was Frog lane back in 1867 too, just i didn't spot the "og lane" on the map!!

I can see down Frog lane on Google Maps street views, but not round the bend!

You will have to visit!!

[Merry]

Elizabeth, her light will probably go out in one minute! I sent her a pm, but it's probably too late!! lol

Other photos say "one of the oldest streets in TW" of Frog Lane. I see there's a well to the east of Sackville Cottage which might have been popular with frogs!

I'd say there's a better than 50:50 chance the cottage survives but maybe with a different name. Even if it doesn't, loads of the property around the area will be from pre-1840, so well worth a visit and Tunbridge Wells is a beautiful place anyway.

[Merry]

oooh, she's still here!! lol

[tenterfieldjulie]

Merry I am here ... too excited to Google in case I get lost. Is Sackville cottage there?
You gels ... It is only 9.13 pm here .. I'm not that old lol Oh is this wonderful .. aren't you girls the greatest wwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeh

[ElizabethHerts]

Merry I am here ... too excited to Google in case I get lost. Is Sackville cottage there?
You gels ... It is only 9.13 pm here .. I'm not that old lol Oh is this wonderful .. aren't you girls the greatest wwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeh

:d:d:d
Julie, how great, now you'll be able to visit when you are over. Even if the cottage isn't there, you will know where it once stood.

Follow Merry's instructions to me above.

[Merry]

I don't know if the building still exists, but if I were you and were thinking of visiting, I would probably contact some historical society of Tunbridge Wells (I expect there are several - Google) or the library and email them a screenshot of that map (I didn't do that here, because of possible copyright infringement!) and ask if it's still there!

When I similarly emailed a library in Somerset the librarian went out looking for me Ancestors pub in her lunch hour!!!!!!!!!!!

[Merry]

It is only 9.13 pm here .. I'm not that old

pmsl!!!!!!!!!!! sorry!! :d:d:d

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Merry... absolutely chuffed. I just tried to print your insturctions... out of paper then the printer jammed ... I have written it out .. just hope I can read my writing I am so excited .... Oh what a wonderful day ... Yipeeeee

[tenterfieldjulie]

I shall return .. hopefully. lol

[Merry]

I would never have looked for the cottage if it hadn't been for Janet. She's a wonder with the Googling, and has shown me not to give up! Just that I know East Grinstead just ain't Royal Tunbridge Wells! (apologies to anyone with East Grinstead connections :o)

[Merry]

If you change the second co-ordinate from 138800 to 138880 you get a slighly further north view so Sackville Cottage is nearer to the middle of the map rather than on the northern edge.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Ooh I have been having fun... I got a bit carried away though and it timed me out on the old map. Then I went onto Google maps and found Sion Road .. I walked a hairs breath from there last year .. it is very close to the Pantiles and King Charles the Martyr Church.... I then crashed the Adobe Reader I was rotating it too much ... I think this computer is picking up on my static electricity from excitement ... Wow. I believe there is a very good FHS in TW so I will email them .. Thanks Merry, Elizabeth, Janet .. this is so exciting .. can't believe it .. Just as well as I put 2 weeks aside to visit ROs..

[Merry]

You need to have another go with the old maps, Julie, as the property wasn't on Sion Road/Mount Sion - it was in Frog Lane and behind another cottage at that, so anyone looking would definitely need to know EXACTLY what they were looking for!

[tenterfieldjulie]

Yes Merry I have found it now I've settled down. This is brilliant ... I know the map is from 25 years later, but is it odd that you have a farriers cottage in the middle of an area that appears to be quite affluent with three schools? I suppose as they all rode horses they would need a farrier. I really need to get that death certificate don't I. I wonder if he made a will. Going to the local RO and FHS with the address of Sackville Cottage you never know what I might find. Would a death cert from 1844 tell me where he was buried?

[Merry]

All those grand houses would have stables crammed with horses! As the cottage was in the back lane it probably would have been quite convenient for access for that part of town.

Would a death cert from 1844 tell me where he was buried?


No!

If you have FMP you could check the death duty indexes for 1844/5 re a will.

[ElizabethHerts]

I haven't found a will for Richard after a quick browse. Perhaps by his age he had already disposed of his worldly goods.

[ElizabethHerts]

I wonder how big Sackville Cottage was, as several families appear to be living there in 1841 - the name heads the right-hand column and Richard Smith and his family are almost at the bottom.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Richard's son, Robert, my ancestor, had a greengrocer shop in Grove Rd, which is not far from Sackville cottage. It is speculation, but possible, that after Lucy died in 1832 at Speldhurst, Richard might have moved so that they all ended up living close to each other in TW, until 1838, when Robert, Henrietta and 3 children emigrated. I don't know how they could have left their families like they did.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Elizabeth, perhaps it was a boarding house? It might also have originally been an almshouse too given the name Sackville and the info that Janet found at Grinstead.

[Merry]

Zooming in more on the map, Sackville Cottage's entrance is on the north side, so would now (if its still there!) be accessed from the bend in Little Mount Sion.

[tenterfieldjulie]

As I understand Tunbridge Wells only really developed in that era of the spas. Tonbridge was the hub with it's castle, but when TW came under Royal patronage it boomed. It must have been an amazing place then. It is beautiful now of course, but the railway in the centre, while wonderfully convenient, changes what it would have looked like.

[Merry]

The railway was one of the early ones, wasn't it? (1840s?)

There's a property listed on Zoopla in Little Mount Zion called "The Forge"!!

[Merry]

OMG is this it, pictured above the Contact Us address!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.yell.com/b/VKHP+CONSULTING-Civil+Engineers-Tunbridge+Wells-TN11YS-3384918/map-directions.html


lol So there are a few new buildings! I was looking at estate agent details for properties in Frog Lane and Little Mount Sion, as some have photos taken of the views from their back windows, but I never saw anything that looked like that!

[ElizabethHerts]

Wow, it looks like it, Merry! I think it might have changed slightly over the years ..... :):eek:

[tenterfieldjulie]

Well I'm sure Richard would get a shock to see what his forge looks like lol .. although being an Engineering Business seems right. Thanks again for all your interest Merry and Elizabeth, it is really amazing how you both can find things . It will be interesting to see if there is a known history of Sackville cottage when I get to Kent. I will have to see what history I can find before I go too. On the Census there are 22 people with a number of trades, so it is possible that it has the same history as East Grinstead.

[Janet]

http://democracy.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/Data/Delegated%20Decisions/20060120/Agenda/070%20appa2.pdf

Quite a bit of info here. Apparently there are both an Old Forge and a Forge House. I didn't take everything in, but looks promising. See paragraph 7.14 in particular.