View Full Version : I'm sure I've asked this before...
Sorry this is so long but I wanted to set it out...
I'm trying to sort my gg grandfather's parents and siblings. I've asked bits and pieces before but i don't think I've added everything together.
I have for sure..............
John Nation and Phoebe Mepham (mn Martin) having children in Australia
Jane 1844
William 1846
John 1848
Thomas 1849
Ellen 1851
Amelia 1852
Charlotte 1856
I have all the baptisms (with dob) for alll except Charlotte who has a birth cert, which I have.
I'm 100% sure john and Phoebe never married.
John gives his pob as Somerset.
Now........I've found for Bridgewater, Somerset.
John and Mary Ann Nation having the following children baptised
Ann 1814
Amelia 1814
John 1815
Sarah 1817
Charlotte 1818
Caroline 1823
Eliza 1823
Mary Ann Skinner 1832
The records give no dates of birth.
There seems a big gap between Mary Ann and the rest but no impossible. Parents are the same with same occupation.
There is a marriage in 1804 Broomfield for a John Nation and Mary Ann Skinner
Some trees have a Thomas Skinner Nation baptised 1811, but I can't find it.
There is a big gap between the 1804 marriage and the possible 1811 or definite 1814 child. Maybe lots of deaths, army service, records not transcribed??????????
What I want to do is make John bap 1815 into my John in Australia.
I've never found how my fellow got here.
Any ideas????
kiterunner
05-06-11, 21:37
Does John Nation's death registration give his parents' names?
I have searched for folk in a similar area of Somerset - chased a Daniel Bennett in Bridgewater for a long time before I found him. He was born in Whitelackington, married in Taunton, had children baptised Frome and died in Britsol.
Have you used this site, which lists the known parish transcriptions ?
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ian.sage/PR/pr_index_ae.html#B
Some transcriptions give more details than others.
Records for arrivals before the 1840s are not easy to find, to see where he came from, but better maybe if he was a convict. There are some passenger lists in newspaper reports, but they don't give any details usually.
Have you followed the John 1815 to John and Mary Ann to see if you can find him later, to see if he exists separately to your John ?
Di
Kite......no parents on his death cert.
I do like the similar names my John gives his children to the names of the John and Mary Ann family in Bridgewater.....lol
Of course they aren't THAT unusual.
Di....I haven't seen that site (I don't think)...Will go there now. Thanks.
Sorry, Di......didn't finish.
I've traced the other John Nations I've found but can't get this 1815 one later in England.
kiterunner
05-06-11, 22:24
Someone on ancestry has John Nation and Phoebe Martin marrying 14 Oct 1841 at St James in Sydney. Have you already checked that out and found no marriage?
Yes that is on the youngest child's birth cert but it's a lie......lol
I can't find my 2g grandfather arriving in Oz either Libby and he was from Somerset too. I'm confident he wasn't a convict but have no record after the time he was about 5 to when he married here. I feel he would have been an assisted immigrant but can't find him on the shipping records.
I'm just lucky that both he and his wife knew who their parents were and those details went on the death certs.
If you find him let us know. Maybe I'll find my 2g grandparents the same way you find yours.
Toni....I don't think this guy was a convict either as they are easier to find. There are two other Nation males who came as convicts in the 1830s. Each of these has a brother named John and both those Johns are still in England in census.
If only I could find the shipping record I'd be happy. I've got stacks of newspaper reports about him in Australia. He was a landowner and horse dealer in the Hunter Valley.
Libby, have you investigated the age of the John Skinner Nation who died in Bridgwater district in 1845?
If Thomas Skinner Nation doesn't seem to have a baptism to make him fit in to the Nation/Skinner family his 1839 marriage cert would tell you his father, but I guess you don't need him unless you can be sure John, 1815, is yours?
Where did you find these?
Now........I've found for Bridgewater, Somerset.
John and Mary Ann Nation having the following children baptised
Ann 1814
Amelia 1814
John 1815
Sarah 1817
Charlotte 1818
Caroline 1823
Eliza 1823
Mary Ann Skinner 1832
The records give no dates of birth.
Some online trees have Mary Ann b 1824 and on the 1841 census there is:
Nicholls Court, Bridgwater
Mary Nation 55 Ind Yes
Charlotte Nation 20 Straw Hat Maker Yes
Amelia Nation 20 Straw Hat Maker Yes
Mary Nation 16 Yes
Not sure if these are the same family?
Merry..I found them on FreeReg.
None of the records give a date of birth, only baptism, so not sure how old the little munchkins were at baptism.
kiterunner
06-06-11, 11:37
Libby, have you investigated the age of the John Skinner Nation who died in Bridgwater district in 1845?
There's a birth reg for John Skinner Nation in the previous quarter and no other obvious death for him so I'm guessing that's the one.
Oh OK, that didn't come up for me.
Does the John who married Phoebe appear to have been born in 1815? Can you trace the elder girls for dobs? Are there are other records like poor law that might name the family with ages?
If John senior disappeared, he was probably in the navy. There are no obvious discharge papers in the army (and healthy soldiers would probably be kept until 1815) whereas the navy was being scaled down from about 1811. If Mary Ann was very young when she married, she might have remained at home while her husband was away. Do you have a potential baptism for her? 28 years is a very long gap from marriage. Even twenty years is pretty good going.
kiterunner
06-06-11, 13:34
John senior is a labourer and then a yeoman on his children's baptisms. I would think he died before civil registration started, and the Bridgwater burials for those years don't seem to be online yet.
Being Somerset I should think it's most likely John nation senr never went anywhere but any earlier children were baptised somewhere not yet transcribed on any major site.
I see Broomfield baptisms are available up to 1800, which doesn't help for the children, but does suggest that isn't where mary Ann Skinner came from, as I don't see a baptism for her (or any Nations :()
Merry..I found them on FreeReg.
None of the records give a date of birth, only baptism, so not sure how old the little munchkins were at baptism.
The conversation on Rootschat re Mary Ann suggests the Bridgewater baptism does give a birth year. Do you know if that is inspired guesswork? Otherwise it may be that the info on freereg is from a transcript which didn't note full details.
A lot of this family seems to be inspired....lol.
The Nation line I'm certain of stops in 1844 when the eldest child is born to John Nation and Phoebe Mepham (mn Martin). This is in Australia.
I have the Martin and Mepham lines down pat.
I have nothing for John Nation prior to 1844. The marriage in 1841 is not on any record.....I've searched the church records. Phoebe was already married and her husband was very much alive.
After John Nation's death in 1859, Phoebe married again under her correct name of Mepham.
Phoenix..........that birth date for Mary Ann could well be right as there is a big gap between her and the previous child. The same with the two lots of "twins". They could well have a year or two between them.
But I've never found John Nation coming to Australia. He is not on the list of passengers on the ship Phoebe came on or the ship Phoebe's parents (the Martins) came on.
He doesn't appear on any convict lists.
tenterfieldjulie
07-06-11, 12:05
Must have Swum!!
Must have Swum!!
Well you're full of helpful hints, aren't you???
Feeling better obviously...........lol
Hello,
I've just joined today.
I have been researching John Nation since 2002. I haven't given up on finding out how he arrived here in Australia. He is my 3rd great grandfather. Everything I have read on this thread is exactly what I have found too. I do have a copy of his Will which he appoints his rupted wife Phoebe Moring (Martin), so yes, they never married and the dom on Charlotte's birth certificate is just made up. I've searched the St.James Church records and found nothing. The only children mentioned in his Will are Jane, John, Thomas & Amelia dated 28.2.1855. Ellen is not mentioned (?) and of course William Belford & Charlotte had not been born then. There were family stories past down of him arriving in Victoria, something about three brothers. But that lead to nothing, especially since we know he only had one brother Thomas Skinner.
I'm sorry I don't have much else to add with finding out how he arrived here.
Sorry for the length of this message. I'll try to be brief next time.
Louise.
kiterunner
07-06-11, 13:30
Welcome to the forum, Louise.
We don't know for sure that John Nation only had one brother, Thomas Skinner, because (a) it hasn't been proved yet that the John Nation who emigrated to Australia is the son of John Nation and Mary Ann Skinner, and (b) assuming that he is, there could well be some more children baptised between their marriage in 1804 and Thomas Skinner Nation's baptism in 1811.
So it might be worth seeing if we can find any other Nations who emigrated to Australia who could be John's brothers. Though I daresay you've already tried that!
Thanks for the welcome and the quick reply.
Your're right, we can't be sure of his life before he came here.
It's how and when he came is what is the big question.
I have exausted many avenues looking for a John Nation who might have migrated here, but have always hit a brick wall.
I'll just keep on searching.
Yeeha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've never met anyone researching John before......LOts of Meppem (Mepham) family.
Just got up.....I'll get back in a minute...I HAVE to light this fire or I'll freeze to death.
John and Phoebe are my gg grandparents through their daughter Amelia...
Back again...
Welcome Louise~~~~
Have you got any concrete evidence that Thomas Skinner was John brother???
If you have, that may be the clincher. There are all those children I put on my first post who are the children of John and Mary Ann Nation. They are all siblings so if John is the 1815 child on that list he has many siblings.
I have found other Nations coming here but they are not siblings of our John. I've traced them back to other parents. Some of those parents did have a John, but with help here, we've eliminated them as being ours.
I don't have the will, but another person who is searching (the Mepham line) was going to buy it. I do have all the certs.
Also ....Louise.......have you traced Joseph Mac Dermott (Phoebe's last child)?
Welcome Louise. I hope you and Libby can sort this man out.
I do have a copy of his Will which he appoints his rupted wife Phoebe Moring (Martin), so yes, they never married and the dom on Charlotte's birth certificate is just made up.
I've never heard this term before. Is it like a defacto wife or does it mean something else?
As for writing too much, write as much as you need.
Hi Libby,
I decend from John's second child John Nation (I call him the 2nd). He married Sarah Jane Healey who had Phoebe Ellen Nation, who married Frank Martin, their youngest son Frank Martin is my grandfather on my mother's side of the family.
As for the children and life of John Nation (1st) in Bridgwater Somerset. I a had no concrete evidence of his parents or siblings. I have only gone by what everyone else presumably has the website NationStudy.com.
I have everything from the Will to newspaper articles (including the sale of John's estate), certificates etc. Also a lovely photo of William Belford Nation circa 1875 in Queensland. A wedding photo of William Belford's & Harriet Sarah's children - John William, Agnes Ellen, Mary Amelia & Benjamin George taken at Benjamin George & Coralie Collins wedding circa 1916.
Before I get too carried away reputed means - has the reputation of being - like defacto in our terminology today. I am sure that Phoebe and John never married and I thought it was strange that Phoebe said she was widow when she married Thomas MacDermott and her first husband Benjamin was still alive. Sorry I'm babbling...
I haven't done any research on Joseph MacDermott.
I do have something on the Strathfieldsaye I found in the NSW State Archives. It mentioned that Henry Parkes was on the same voyage as Phoebe and the overcrowding and filfthy state of the ship. There is an article Sydney Herald 26.7.1839 recording 205 bounty migrants and a great number of highly respected cabin passengers.
What I'd like to do Libby is possibly send you copies of the Will and some other info you might like to have. It's difficult to type it all, there is just so much. There is only maybe one way of finding out how John came here, only a slight possiblitiy is from a Rector of Bridgwater Somerset, if there is such a thing. There is one for Ninfield in Sussex, which is where there info on the Strathfieldsaye of passengers arriving in good/poor health, what do you think?? I stopp for a breath now...
tenterfieldjulie
08-06-11, 12:40
Welcome Louise, From an Aussie neighbour of Libby's (within coeee actually) - Don't worry about breathing when talking about the Nations - Libby hyperventilates all the time lol Great to have you onboard - I'm sure between the two of you and with the help of the great people on the forum from all around the world, Mr Nation has not got a chance of escaping :D....
Hi Julie,
Thanks for the warm welcome.
I haven't heard from Libby for a few days now.
I do hope she is OK
tenterfieldjulie
12-06-11, 09:05
Hi Louise,:D Libby is fine - just worrying about the weather, price of bananas, holes in the road, new kitten, Laurie hurting his back .... a typical Libby week. If you want to find her have a look on the General Discussion Board - Look on Anzacs and you'll get a warm (noisy), welcome when you tell them you are related to Libby... You aren't an Ariel are you ;).... Libby has a lost Agatha that has legendary status ;):D:d:d:d
Thanks Julie,
I'm still trying to navigate around the site. I haven't got the nack yet.
No, I'm not an Ariel. Not sure what that is???.
Thanks Julie,
I'm still trying to navigate around the site. I haven't got the nack yet.
No, I'm not an Ariel. Not sure what that is???.
Hi Louise,
If you haven't found it already this is the thread Julie is refering to (on the General Discussion board)
http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=9966
If you don't know what an Ariel is then you must be OK!!! Ariel is one of the surnames Libby is researching. They are a very difficult family so they appear a good deal on this site!
Merry.......................I hate to tell you but the Nation line is even harder...lol.
And...it's my line not his.....lol
Gee....you lot will frighten my rellies back into the woodwork.
I've got to use a process of elimination to track John Nation's entry to Australia (NO Julie....he did not swim)
He almost certainly wasn't a convict........all my convicts are easy to trace.
According to his death cert he arrived about 1839. The lady he took up with arrived 1839, but I can't find John on that ship. The same lady's parents arrived 1838 and ditto regards John Nation.
1844 is the first definite sighting (baptism and birth of child)
The shipping lists I know have loads of gaps are the crew lists, but of course there are others with gaps.
I've tracked the "maybe" family of JN in Somerset. This is the John Nation/Mary Ann Skinner children.
Two of the daughters married seafaring men. In 1851 one is married to a sailer, the other a mariner.
And......that family has similar names to John and Phoebe's Australian born children, including Amelia and Charlotte..........well, they are more unusual than Ann and Sarah....lol
I agree with you Libby. John Nation has been very difficult. The constant searching over the past 10 years has been very tiring. How the devil he got here??? Sometimes I wish he were a convict. It would make our lives much easier. He is the only one in my line on both sides of my parents that I can not find how and when he arrived. According to his death certificate and according to Benjamin Mepham (stepson) that here had been here in NSW for 20 years. Maybe he could have came earlier or may have arrived in another state e.g. Victoria or S.A. or ???? So many questions,so many possibilities. There just has to be something.
I am now warning everyone......................
I am about to break one of the cardinal rules of FH and attach (only with pencil) my John Nation to the John Nation/Mary Ann Skinner family in Somerset.
I'm going to go back a bit further if I can and then come forward.....and also trace the children of that marriage to see if anything pops out at me.
Prayers welcome....
tenterfieldjulie
14-06-11, 11:20
These missing men .... I still haven't found Peter's grandfather Matthew McDonagh's arrival and he arrived in the 1880s .... I wonder how good a swimmer he was??? Janet Reakes book was titled "He Must Have Swum" of course the other option is: Did He Walk on Water? ...
tenterfieldjulie
14-06-11, 11:23
Well done Libby you have nothing to loose (except time and money and that happens anyhow) I think after all the chasing you've done, maybe to attack him from a different angle, might shake him out of where he is hiding, or at least eliminate or add him to the family in Somerset. Good luck.
Thanks Julie.
I haven't looked for your Matthew, have I????
tenterfieldjulie
14-06-11, 11:50
No you haven't Liby. The problem is that I think he paid his own way drat it. I contacted Past Keys back in 2000 and they hadn't indexed unassisted past 1860 then. I should see where they are up to now. Mathew and Ellen were married in 1896 in Sydney. The earliest reference I can find for him is playing cricket in Dec 1894. I have since found out that Mathew McDonagh and Ellen O'Connor met on the ship coming out. I recently found that she also had sisters in Australia and whether she came out with them I don't know. I've mislaid her death cert at the moment, but I'm thinking that it might narrow it down, as Mathew would have been the informant (I hope). Thanks for the jog lol
There's an Ellen and an Ann O'Connor coming here in 1884. Let me know when you find the cert.
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