View Full Version : Brick wall update
Cheshirelass73
10-05-11, 15:10
Hi All
I posted recently trying to find details of my grandfather Joseph Ball.
Thanks to Kiterunners help I found that he was married in Warrington so went to the library and looked in the marriage records.
He was married in the last quarter of 1886 and his age was 23.
So he must have been born in 1862/3.
His father on the marriage cert is also Joseph (not Noah as I thought)occupation collier.
I found out at the library that you can go on Ancestry on their computer for free which is good because I can't afford a subscription.
I am on GU but Joseph's birth record does not give parents names.
Joseph Ball born 1862 Madeley Shropshire ref 6a 584.
Is there any way I can find his mother's name without buying a birth cert?
Margaret in Burton
10-05-11, 15:39
Hi All
I posted recently trying to find details of my grandfather Joseph Ball.
Thanks to Kiterunners help I found that he was married in Warrington so went to the library and looked in the marriage records.
He was married in the last quarter of 1886 and his age was 23.
So he must have been born in 1862/3.
His father on the marriage cert is also Joseph (not Noah as I thought)occupation collier.
I found out at the library that you can go on Ancestry on their computer for free which is good because I can't afford a subscription.
I am on GU but Joseph's birth record does not give parents names.
Joseph Ball born 1862 Madeley Shropshire ref 6a 584.
Is there any way I can find his mother's name without buying a birth cert?
Baptism record but that's highly unlikely to give you her maiden name unless the vicar recorded it.
The only other way is the birth cert.
Have you found him on the census with his parents?
Could you tell us the names of the marriage witnesses, please?
Cheshirelass73
10-05-11, 15:50
Hi Marg
No the only census record that could be right is 1881
Joseph ball age 18 lodging with John Wilkes' family.
Cheshirelass73
10-05-11, 15:51
Witnesses
John W Tharrat (?) and Elizabeth Davies
There's a Joseph Ball who's a mining agent in the Madeley rd in 1871 and a Joseph Ball who's a collier. The latter does not have a son Joseph in the family in 1871.
They are of a similar age. The name is very common. It would be very easy to pick the wrong marriage. In fact, it would be easy to pick the wrong birth certificate as well. Every marriage certificate for which I know the facts (brother, parents, grandparents) has errors, lies or misleading information on it.
If you can access the marriages for free, I'd look to see whether any other family members married in the same place and who the witnesses were. Before you are forced into buying that 1862 birth certificate, try to find later evidence of your Joseph with his family.
Cheshirelass73
10-05-11, 16:03
On the marriage certificate both Joseph and Annie are living in Pierpoint Street Warrington at different numbers but I searched the census for 1881 and 1891 for their families at these addresses but no luck.
I have a tape recording that my Dad made before he died with some family details on it. He said his father never mentioned his family at all and they never had any visitors from that side of the family, so maybe Joseph left home and the lodging with John Wilkes would fit in with that.
Margaret in Burton
10-05-11, 16:14
Without buying the birth cert you won't know if you have the right one with the right father not just finding the mother's name.
From your other thread - details of Joseph jr:
1891 census
118 Catherine St Warrington
Joseph Ball Head M 28 Forgeman Shropshire
1901 census
118 Catherine St., Warrington
Joseph Ball Head M 35 Brickseller's Labourer b Salop Ellesmere
1911 census
42 Catherine St Warrington
Joseph Ball Head M 46 b Shropshire Dawley
He could be the Joseph Ball who is 18 on the 1881 census, born Salop Dawley, living as a boarder in Wellington, Shropshire, working as a bricklayer's apprentice.
Joseph is described as an apprentice in 1881. It's possible that the poor law union sorted out an apprenticeship for him.
I can't find him in 1871 and I wonder if he is either in the workhouse or his father died, mother remarried and he is under his step-father's surname.
He seems to be consistent in being a year older than his wife. Have you found her birth?
For those who have Ancestry there's this couple and children in 1861 and I can't find any of them in 1871, but don't have time to really look as I have to go out.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=SALRG9_1855_1857-0053&fn=Joseph&ln=Ball&st=d&ssrc=&pid=19672813
*sulks because she hasn't got Ancestry*
If that was Josph & Jane, here they are in 1871: RG10 piece 2750 folio 92 page 80
There's room for a young Joseph in there, but he's not with the family.
kiterunner
10-05-11, 17:09
No, this is that 1861 possible family, but this Joseph is an iron miner, not a collier:
Joseph Ball Head Mar 29 Iron Miner Salop Dawley
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 26 Do Do
Sarah Do Daur 6 Scholar Do Do
James Do Son 5 do Do Do
George do Son 3 Do Do Do
Jane Do Daur 1 Do Do Do
Hannah Do Mother Widow 70 Invalid Do Do
I've got to go out soon as well, so may not have time to track them down in 1871!
No, I've seen them - this lot are Joseph and Elizabeth.
In 1861 they are at Meadow Well Lane Dawley
Joseph Ball 29 iron miner b Dawley
Elizabeth Ball 26 b ditto
Sarah Ball 6 b ditto
James Ball 5 b ditto
George Ball 3 b ditto
Jane Ball 1 b ditto
Hannah Ball 70 mother widow b ditto
but this Joseph is an iron miner, not a collier
Fair enough, but if I was the vicar and I said what does your father do and was told 'a miner' I might write collier not realising there's other sorts! lol
It was just they were the only vanishing family, so I thought they needed tracing if only to eliminate them!!
Cheshirelass73
10-05-11, 17:14
Can't find it on BMD but According to Dad's tape she was Annie Jane Rogers born Oct 1866 at Stoke on Trent Staffs.
I have found her on the 1881 Census
William Rogers head age 34 puddler born Swansea
May age 34 housewife born Pontypool
William age 12 born Hanley Stoke on Trent
Annie Jane age 14 born Hanley
James age 8
May age 2
if Annie was 20 on the marriage cert then 1866 for her DOB would be right
kiterunner
10-05-11, 17:15
Oh, this is that family in 1871,at Little Dawley, and Joseph has switched to mining coal:
Joseph Ball Head Widr 49 Coal Miner Lamley(?) Common
George do Son 12 Salop Dawley
Jane Do Daur 10 Do Do
Oooh, 1881 census
Joseph Ball lodger widower 47 coal miner b Dawley
George Ball lodger single 22 coal miner Dawley
There two could possibly be the remains of Joseph's family......at least these two people should really be on the 1871.........
Oh, this is that family in 1871,at Little Dawley, and Joseph has switched to mining coal:
Joseph Ball Head Widr 49 Coal Miner Lamley(?) Common
George do Son 12 Salop Dawley
Jane Do Daur 10 Do Do
Lol! We are reversing into each other!
Two Elizabeth Balls die in Madeley in 1864. It might be he was brought up by maternal grandparents, married aunts etc. But I cannot see any Joseph balls of the right age.
ElizabethHerts
10-05-11, 17:54
Can't find it on BMD but According to Dad's tape she was Annie Jane Rogers born Oct 1866 at Stoke on Trent Staffs.
I have found her on the 1881 Census
William Rogers head age 34 puddler born Swansea
May age 34 housewife born Pontypool
William age 12 born Hanley Stoke on Trent
Annie Jane age 14 born Hanley
James age 8
May age 2
if Annie was 20 on the marriage cert then 1866 for her DOB would be right
Name: ROGERS, Anne J
Registration District: Stoke on Trent
County: Staffordshire
Year of Registration: 1866
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's Maiden Name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume No: 6B
Page No: 173
Cheshirelass73
10-05-11, 17:55
Great Grandad Joseph you are a man of mystery.
Will I ever find out who you were?
ElizabethHerts
10-05-11, 17:59
1871 Census
RODGERS, William Head M 27 1844 Glamorgan Puddler
RODGERS, Mary Wife F 27 1844 Warwickshire
RODGERS, Annie J Son M 4 1867 Staffordshire
RODGERS, Wm Son M 2 1869 Staffordshire
RG10 Piece: 2864 Folio: 65 Page: 62
Address:
Etruria Vale Road, Shelton, Hanley, Staffordshire
Great Grandad Joseph you are a man of mystery.
Will I ever find out who you were?
Don't worry, you have barely started - a lot of us have spent 20 or 30 years looking for answers!!
The Joseph who was married to Elizabeth and was a widower in 1881 was single in 1851 (and a coal miner!) but I don't see an obvious marriage to Elizabeth between then and 1861. I was hoping to have a prod round her potential maiden name to see if anything came to light.
Ellesmere and Dawley are 25 miles apart yet he gives both as birth places. I did wonder if his family (or mother) came from Dawley but he was born at Ellesmere, or vice versa.
kiterunner
10-05-11, 22:49
The Joseph who was married to Elizabeth and was a widower in 1881 was single in 1851 (and a coal miner!) but I don't see an obvious marriage to Elizabeth between then and 1861. I was hoping to have a prod round her potential maiden name to see if anything came to light.
FamilySearch has a marriage between Joseph Ball and Elisabeth Jones 26 Feb 1854 at Malinslee, Shropshire. A quick Google and it looks as though Malinslee is very close to Dawley.
Good luck with your "prod" around the name Jones!!
FamilySearch has a marriage between Joseph Ball and Elisabeth Jones 26 Feb 1854 at Malinslee, Shropshire. A quick Google and it looks as though Malinslee is very close to Dawley.
Good luck with your "prod" around the name Jones!!
lol!
Which FS site is that on? I can't find it and FMP has the groom as John rather than Joseph.
UPDATE - I've found it now. Is it possible to determine how reliable the source is for the records on the new site? I guess Joseph should be the name as without this marriage there doesn't seem to be one, but it would be good to know where the info came from.
In 1871 there is a grandson called Joseph Jones b Dawley aged 8, but of course there are always going to be birth regs for Jones in any area and there are several possible ones for this boy, so it's more than likely this is his name and he hasn't just been entered up with his grandparents surname by mistake. I went backwards with the grandparents and they do have a dau, Elizabeth the right age to become Mrs Ball, but she is born Wellington rather than Dawley, but then Wellington is only three miles away.
So, rather than positively eliminating this Joseph...........!
I looked at the 1881 census in case I could positively identify the same Joseph Jones there, but I can't.
kiterunner
11-05-11, 07:33
Which FS site is that on? I can't find it and FMP has the groom as John rather than Joseph.
UPDATE - I've found it now. Is it possible to determine how reliable the source is for the records on the new site? I guess Joseph should be the name as without this marriage there doesn't seem to be one, but it would be good to know where the info came from.
Oh dear, his name is John on the GRO index. Confusing! When you say FMP, do you mean the GRO index or is there a parish register entry on there?
Baptism on FamilySearch:
Sarah Ball 18 Jun 1854 Dawley Parva (Little Dawley), parents Joseph and Elizabeth. It fits so nicely with that marriage! I suppose the only way to find out which name is right on the marriage would be to get the certificate or look it up in the parish registers. I can imagine a Jos being misread as Jno or vice versa.
kiterunner
11-05-11, 07:58
So, thinking about it, it looks as though your best bet is to get Joseph jr's birth certificate (the 1862 one) and see what it says for the mother's name. If his mother is Elizabeth then it will fit with the family we've found, if his mother has some other name we will look again! And if her name is Elizabeth Ball formerly Jones, it will all fit together!
When you say FMP, do you mean the GRO index or is there a parish register entry on there?
Sorry, I got mixed up with my acronyms because it was a bit early in the morning for me!! I didn't mean an acronym at all (or at least not a whole one) - I meant FreeBMD :o
If you order the 1862 cert from the local office you can specify you only want it if the father is Joseph and hopefully they won't charge you if it isn't.
Certificate Applications,
Shropshire Registration Service,
PO Box 4661,
Shrewsbury,
SY1 9AL.
Tel: 0845 678 9016
kiterunner
11-05-11, 12:00
In 1871 there is a grandson called Joseph Jones b Dawley aged 8, but of course there are always going to be birth regs for Jones in any area and there are several possible ones for this boy, so it's more than likely this is his name and he hasn't just been entered up with his grandparents surname by mistake. I went backwards with the grandparents and they do have a dau, Elizabeth the right age to become Mrs Ball, but she is born Wellington rather than Dawley, but then Wellington is only three miles away.
So, rather than positively eliminating this Joseph...........!
I looked at the 1881 census in case I could positively identify the same Joseph Jones there, but I can't.
There is also a Sarah Jones age 16 with the family in 1871, (born Wellington) and that Ball family had a Sarah age 6 in 1861 (born Dawley), but of course there are millions of Sarah Joneses around.
If you think there are millions you need to try North Wales!!
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