Holden muddle

[Olde Crone]

I have tried to sort this out over the years but have always retired defeated.

I've had some new info today but with no source. I'm waiting for the informant to tell me the source, which I hope is a monumental inscription (!) In the meantime I'm trying to check but getting nowhere fast.

Basically I am trying to discover how many children Nicholas Holden and his wife Mary (Eccles) had.

He was a farmer (of Sunnyhurst? Over Darwen) born 1807 and his wife Mary born 1808.

In 1851 they may have had any (or none!) of the following children:

William born 1849*
Alice born 1834
Catherine born 1845
Ellen born 1843*
Hannah born 1836*

plus maybe more. I have confirmed that * are definitely their children.

The confusion arises in 1881, where Nicholas is shown with a load of his adult "children". Nicholas was a Poor Law Overseer and the adults living with him were all Holdens, but billetted on him as his kinsfolk by the Poor Law authority. I did look at the original and it does not say children, it says "other" for the relationship.

I will be grateful for any census help to try to sort out once and for all who his children were.

Thanks.

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

1851 Census
HOLDEN, Nicholas
BLACKBURN, Lancashire
HO107 piece 2261 folio 44 page 7
The Wood, Over Darwen

HOLDEN, Nicholas Head Married M 43 1808 Farmer Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Mary Wife Married F 42 1809 Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Esther Daughter Unmarried F 18 1833 Farmer's Daughter At Home Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Alice Daughter Unmarried F 16 1835 Farmer's Daughter At Home Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Hannah Daughter F 14 1837 Farmer's Daughter At Home Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, John Son M 12 1839 Farmer's Son Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Ellen Daughter F 8 1843 Scholar Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Catherine Daughter F 5 1846 Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, William Son M 1 1850 Over Darwen Lancashire

[ElizabethHerts]

1861 Census
HOLDEN, Nicholas
BLACKBURN, Lancashire
RG09 piece 3108 folio 27 page 47
Town Wood Farm, Vale Street, Over Darwen

HOLDEN, Nicholas Head Married 53 1808 Farmer Of 40 Acres Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Mary Wife Married F 52 1809 Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Esther Daughter Unmarried F 28 1833 Milliner & Draper Over Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Alice Daughter Unmarried F 26 1835 Eccleshill Lancashire
HOLDEN, Hannah Daughter Unmarried F 24 1837 Milliner & Draper Eccleshill Lancashire
HOLDEN, JohnnSon M 22 1839 Eccleshill Lancashire
HOLDEN, Ellen Daughter Unmarried F 18 1843 Milliner & Draper Eccleshill Lancashire
HOLDEN, Catherin Daughter Unmarried F 16 1845 Milliner & Draper Eccleshill Lancashire
HOLDEN, Elizabeth Daughter Unmarried F 8 1853 Scholar Over Darwen Lancashire

[ElizabethHerts]

1871 census - household transcription
Person: HOLDEN, Nicholas
Address: Woodside Farm, Over Darwen


HOLDEN, Nicholas Head M 63 1808 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Mary Wife F 62 1809 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Esther Daughter F 38 1833 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Alice M Daughter F 36 1835 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Hannah Daughter F 34 1837 Lancashire
HOLDEN, John Son M 32 1839 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Ellen Daughter F 28 1843 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Cathrine Daughter F 26 1845 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Elizebeth Daughter F 18 1853 Lancashire
BOUGHTON, Esther E Niece F 16 1855 Lancashire

[ElizabethHerts]

1881 Census
HOLDEN, Nicholas
BLACKBURN, Lancashire
RG11 piece 4205 folio 30 page 54

HOLDEN, Nicholas Head Married M 73 1808 Gentleman Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Mary Married F 72 1809 Gentlemans Wife Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Esther Single F 46 1835 Draper Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Alice Single F 44 1837 Dairymaid (Dom Servt) Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, John Single M 40 1841 Milliner Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Ellen Single F 36 1845 Farmer Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Catherine Single F 34 1847 Housemaid Darwen Lancashire
HOLDEN, Hannah Single F 42 1839 Shopwoman (Gen) Darwen Lancashire

[ElizabethHerts]

1841 Census
HOLDEN, Nicholas
BLACKBURN, Lancashire
HO107 piece 503 folio 14/20 page 9

Shaw Fold, Blackburn, Eccleshill

HOLDEN, Nicholas M 30 1811 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Mary F 30 1811 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Ester F 8 1833 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Alice F 7 1834 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Hanah F 5 1836 Lancashire
HOLDEN, John M 3 1838 Lancashire
HOLDEN, Nathaniel M 1 1840 Lancashire

[ElizabethHerts]

Name: Esther Holden
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Christening Date: 07 Oct 1832
Christening Place: Blackburn-over-Darwen, Lancashire
Marriage Date:
Marriage Place:
Death Date:
Death Place:
Burial Date:
Burial Place:
Father's Name: Nicholas Holden
Mother's Name: Mary Holden
Record Set: RG4_2001
Collection: null

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou so much Elizabeth!

As you can see, the 1881 is a mess - John isn't a milliner, he's a farmer, and Nicholas seems to have forgotten how old his children are.

However, my contact has just got back to me and tells me he did indeed get the info he's sent me from the MI of Nicholas and his wife. Odd that none of N's ten children married......

OC

[Olde Crone]

Ah! the Esther baptism is on Lan-opc, but the mother is given as ANN Eccles and the address is March House. There's no marriage for Nicholas and ANN, so I must assume a slip of the pen! (Mary Eccles' mother was Esther)

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

Thankyou so much Elizabeth!

Odd that none of N's ten children married......

OC

I have a family like that. They either couldn't bear to leave their doting parents or they were avoiding marriage like the plague, based on what they had seen! :d

[kiterunner]

FamilySearch has a Hannah born 18 Aug 1830 and baptised 3 Oct 1830 at Over Darwen Lower Chapel Independent; presumably she died before the other Hannah came along. Also on BMD Registers site - Recordset RG4 2001.

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou Kate.

I typed a long reply and lost my internet connection!

All the above children are accounted for on the MI except for Esther. I wonder if she escaped and got married, lol.

OC

[Merry]

All the above children are accounted for on the MI except for Esther. I wonder if she escaped and got married, lol.

OC

That looks very possible! There are a couple of 'near enough' death regs in Blackburn district, but also there is this:

1881 census RG11 4209 36 22
High Lawn, Lower Darwen:

Joseph ECCLES Head W Male 58 Cotton Spinner Manufacturer b Over Darwen, Lancashire
Alexander T. ECCLES Son U Male 30 Cotton Spinner Manufacturer b Over Darwen, Lancashire
Mary BALL Servant U Female 34 Cook Domestic Servant Edinburgh, Scotland
Ellen HYDE Servant Female 14 General Servant b Swed?? Hill, Shropshire

and then.....

Marriages Jun 1882
Banks Patrick Blackburn 8e 712
Eccles Joseph Blackburn 8e 712
HOLDEN Esther Blackburn 8e 712
McNulty Winifred Blackburn 8e 712

and then....

1891 census RG12 3416 58 13
High Lawn, Lower Darwen

Joseph Eccles head married 68 Cotton Manufacturer b Lancs Darwen
Esther Eccles wife married 57 b Lancs Darwen
Sarah Creighton serv single 31 cook b Shropshire
Edith Hewlass serv single 24 housemaid b Yorks

Joseph Eccles was one of the executors of Nicholas Holden's will, shortly after his marriage to Esther in 1882.

[Merry]

Joseph died in 1896, but Esther didn't die until 1917.

[HarrysMum]

Looks good Merry.

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou Merry, that looks very likely. Joseph was without doubt a relative of her mother.....incestuous lot! No wonder the other sibs never married. (Mary Eccles' mother was a Holden....)

OC

[Olde Crone]

Oh the disgrace!

Esther's sister Elizabeth Holden married Esther's stepson who was also a Joseph Eccles. Joseph Eccles and Mary Eccles were second cousins on the Eccles side and Mary Eccles was also second cousin to her husband Nicholas Holden.

Joseph 'first wife was Betty Kay, whose mother was a Holden.

OC

[Kit]

I'm not sure where the disgrace comes from OC but they certainly were a close family. ;)

[marquette]

Every time I see one of OCs posts about her Holdens of Darwen, it reminds me I am stuck with my g-g-g-g grandfather Christopher Eccles. And now there are Eccles'es in her Holden families !!!

Christopher Eccles appears in Manchester to marry Martha Ackers in 1827 at the Collegiate Church (now Cathedral) and most "Events" of the family happen at the Collegiate Church. Christopher only appears in one census, 1841, which gives his birthdate as between 1786 and 1790, in Lancashire.

Maybe I should just trace all the Eccles' in Darwen too and see where that leads.

Do you have Shorrocks too, OC ?

My aunt who is a Shorrock, married my Eccles uncle but I don't think anyone realised how close their families had been in the Old Country.



Di

[Olde Crone]

Di

I have access to an Eccles tree of Darwen - 390 Eccles, lol, but only three Christophers and all too late to be yours. Shorrock is also a common Darwen name. What was Christopher's first son called, as that might help to pin him down.

OC

[marquette]

Hi OC

Christopher's eldest son was called John, the younger two Christopher and William, no Joseph after Martha's father though. If Christopher was illegit to Sarah, his father's name won't be Eccles.

There's an 1783 baptism (?, did the Lower Independent Chapel do baptisms or registrations ?) for Christopher the son of John and Elizabeth, but he would have been 58 in the 1841 census, not near enough to 50 as mine is listed.

Back to the drawing board - just checked Lancsbmd burials again - son of John and Nancy buried 1785, son of Sarah buried 1788, son of George and Ann buried 1793, son of Ellen (also known as Hudson) buried 1786. That seems to account for all the Christophers born in Darwen in the approx. time frame.

I think I accounted for most of the Ribchester and Blackburn Christopher Eccles as well, but I will now go and double check !!

Di

[Uncle John]

It's always good to hear about the Holden days.

[Shona]

it's always good to hear about the holden days. :d:d:d:d:d

[ElizabethHerts]

Am I imagining things, or was there a post here which has disappeared? (posted today)

[Merry]

Elizabeth - If you mean the post made by new member Melinda, it's been made into a new thread :)

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Merry - I thought I might have had too much wine!!:D