View Full Version : More questions than answers
This is my ex's side of the family - the wife of Dennis/James McCarthy/Carter.
Her name was Elizabeth Alice Goodwin and although I didn't have her baptism, her marriage cert says her father was John Goodwin, a waiter.
I was a bit puzzled by this as in 1881 her widowed brother Charles is staying with Elizabeth and her family and tracing Charles back through the censuses I found him with John Goodwin, a carpenter.
John's wife was Frances and I found some baptism of children 1814-1822 at St. Giles in the Fields, as well as finding John and Frances in the censuses, with him born Hull and her in Peasenhall, Suffolk.
BUT yesterday I finally found Elizabeth's baptism at St. Giles in the Fields on the microfilm at the LMA. Unfortunately the image is quite faint, so I can only say she was baptised between 6-8 Jun 1831, but her birthdate of 18 Sep 1829 is clear - however, two points of concern are that her mother is given as Elizabeth and her father's occupation as wine porter!
So I'm wondering if John & Frances are the wrong folk - in which case I should be able to find an alternative Charles Goodwin b. 1826 but I can't!
I haven't got Charles' baptism yet as I ran out of time, and that might make things clearer.
In the meantime, has anyone got any ideas? Wine porter/waiter/joiner/master carpenter - is this a logical career progression? Could Elizabeth Alice's mother be recorded as Elizabeth in error?
kiterunner
27-04-11, 19:19
What's his occupation on the 1814 - 1822 baptisms, Nell?
Carpenter. But my problem is whether the man who is the father in those 1814-22 baptisms and seems to be the man who is Charles' father (Charles is also a carpenter and in 1881 a French polisher) is also the father of Elizabeth Alice (whose father on baptism is a wine porter and on her marriage cert a waiter). The link between Alice and the John Goodman who is a carpenter is Charles, who is with Alice in 1881. They both say they were born in Long Acre, though in Elizabeth Alice's baptism her address is 8 Monmouth Street, just a bit north of Long Acre.
kiterunner
27-04-11, 22:14
On the 1881 census it doesn't actually state that Charles is Elizabeth's brother; he is just a "boarder" with the family. Does it say brother (or brother-in-law) on another census?
OOOh! Eagle eyes, you're right. I assumed he was her brother because of the surname and age. Unfortunately that's the only census he's with her, before that he's with his wife.
So assuming he ISN'T her brother, he's most likely to be a cousin? But that doesn't help me to find Elizabeth's parents. I'll have to check Charles' baptism when I can get to LMA again.
But I can't find definite matches for Elizabeth or her parents in 1841.
kiterunner
27-04-11, 22:24
OOOh! Eagle eyes, you're right. I assumed he was her brother because of the surname and age. Unfortunately that's the only census he's with her, before that he's with his wife.
Which Charles is he on the previous censuses? What's his wife's name?
I think there are two couples John & Frances and John & Elizabeth.
These must be a brothers of your Elizabeth Alice, the address matches hers on her marriage cert.
Saffron Hill, Camden
Thomas born 10/11/1840 baptised 29/3/1841 son of John & Elizabeth Goodwin, 12 Saffron Street, waiter
Henry born 30/4/1831 baptised 29/11/1841 son of John & Elizabeth Goodwin, 12 Saffron Street, waiter
KiteRunner
Sorry. Charles is Charles Goodwin b 1826 and his wife is Eleanor. Previous censuses they are in Liquorpond Street:
1861
48 Liquorpond Street, Holborn St Andrew Middlesex
Charles Goodwin abt 1825 St Giles, Middlesex, Head carpenter
>>>Eleanor 39 b St Luckes [sic] wife
Eleanor daur 9 scholar b St Andrews
Caroline daur 7 scholar St Andrews
Charles son 5 St Andrews
Ann daur 2 St Andrews
[Liquorpond Street ran east from Grays Inn Road south of Calthorpe Street, in an area known as "little Italy"]
death of youngest daughter: Annie Sarah Kate Goodwin 1864 Jan-Feb-Mar Holborn 1b p483
Probable death of wife: 1864 Jul-Aug-Sep Holborn 1b p374 Eleanor Goodwin
1871
48 Liquorpond Street, St Andrew Holborn London
John Goodwin 83 abt 1788 Lodger widower carpenter Hull, Yorkshire [Charles' father]
William Goodwin 43 unmarried lodger commercial clerk Middlesex [Charles' brother]
[at same address, immediately below William, but listed as head is
Charles Goodwin 45 head widower carpenter London
Eleanor Goodwin 19 daur unmarried London
Caroline Goodwin 17 daur unmarried London
Charles Goodwin son 14 London
Jay
Oh, I'm excited now! Beginning to think John the carpenter and Charles are red herrings!
kiterunner
27-04-11, 22:41
Okay, so Charles' marriage to Eleanor is 5 Dec 1849 St Pancras and his father is John Goodwin, carpenter, on the marriage cert. Doesn't really help, sorry.
I think this is the family in 1841
HO107 piece 671 folio 5/56 page 22
Saffron Street
Emily Goodwin 45
Charles 15
John 13
Ellen 11
Henry 9
Thomas 1
All born in County
I'm guessing Emily should be Elizabeth & Ellen should be Elizabeth Alice.
I wonder why they took so long to baptise Henry, especially as they'd had a newish baby baptised earlier the same year?
Thanks for looking KiteRunner.
You've shown I had jumped to conclusions about Charles' relationship with Elizabeth, which is a help.
1851
12 Saffron Street
HO107 piece 1515 folio 215 page 15
Elizabeth Goodwin Head married 57 shoemaker Born St Andrews, Middlesex
Thomas Goodwin son 10 Born St Andrews, Middlesex
kiterunner
27-04-11, 22:49
Ooh, I thought I'd found them in 1841 listed as Goodman, at Saffron Street, Saffron Hill, and looking at the image, the surname should indeed be Goodwin instead of Goodman, but there is no John or Elizabeth, hmmm.
Emily Goodwin 45 Ind Y
Chales Do 15 Ind Y
John Do 13 Y
Ellen Do 11 Y
Henry Do 9 Y
Thomas Do 1 Y
But Henry and Thomas fit those baptisms well! I must go off to bed. Refs for that entry are piece 671, book 5, folio 56 page 22. Maybe we can work it out in the morning!
Can't see a likely Henry or Thomas Goodwin in 1841 either. They do like to make things mysterious, don't they?
Jay/KiteRunner
Many thanks. I hope we can crack this before the end of the weekend!
KiteRunner
I like the confusion of having an Emily (too young to be granny), no Elizabeth, an alternative Charles...
Found a baptism for Eliza Jane, parents John & Elizabeth, father's occupation waiter, abode Saffron Street, in 1838 (Eliza born 1836) at St Andrew Holborn. More and more intriguing!
kiterunner
28-04-11, 17:42
I've been trying to work out who that Emily Goodwin was and I thought I'd found her on another census with a sister called Eliza Bouzell, but now I've found that Emily elsewhere in 1841, so it's back to square one with her...
I think the 'Emily' is an error Kite, her rounded age matches Elizabeth's age in 1851.
Didn't have any luck finding John on the 41 or 51 census lastnight. I did wonder if he was already dead & the married was an error with her being 'independant' in 1841.
Thanks for looking ladies. As my thread says, more questions than answers, but I think maybe I need to look for an alternative Charles. I've got some different siblings to research now.
Many thanks again!
LOL Nell, i'm a he not a she :d:d
:o My apologies! I think I'm confusing you with a Janet on another forum that I know as Jay.:o
Thank you gentleman!
I've had a good scout round but can't find another candidate to be Charles. IF he isn't Elizabeth's brother, then who is he? If his father John the carpenter and Elizabeth's father John the wine porter are connected, they can't be brothers. John the carpenter was born in Hull.
I am impatient to get Charles' baptism but can't get to LMA before 14th May.
[QUOTE=Nell]I've had a good scout round but can't find another candidate to be Charles. IF he isn't Elizabeth's brother, then who is he?QUOTE]
That's sometimes the question isn't it, Nell. Failing other evidence, likelihood and lack of other possibilities have to come into play :-)
Yes, a bit like Sherlock Holmes' dictum that if all other things have been eliminated the truth remains, however improbable. It's just we'd like to be a little more certain!
UPDATE
I went to the LMA today and found Charles' baptism. It has his parents as John & Francis [sic] Goodwin, father's occupation carpenter, address 6 Great Wild Street. So that ties in with the other Goodwins.
My Elizabeth Alice doesn't appear to have had any siblings baptised at St Giles and I couldn't find a marriage for her parents there either.
So Charles ISN'T her brother, but I feel there must be a connection. He's the only lodger with the family in any census, and I do know lots of rellies are described as lodgers. He has the same birthplace as Elizabeth and the same surname as her maiden name.
Not much further forward but at least it seems her mother's name was Elizabeth.
Just re-read this old thread.
I've found a burial in 1839 in Spa Fields for Eliza Jane, her address is given as St Andrew Holborn which is the right locale.
But I can't find a trace of Elizabeth Goodwin McCarthy/Carter's parents John & Elizabeth nor kill off either Thomas or Henry!
kiterunner
24-09-19, 11:39
Well, now we have the online GRO birth index showing MMN and there is a Thomas Goodwin birth registered Oct-Dec 1840 Holborn, MMN Grinley.
kiterunner
24-09-19, 11:42
FMP says there is a John Goodwin / Elizabeth Grindley marriage in 1814 at St Martin in the Fields. I haven't got an FMP sub to view it; just going to see if it is on Ancestry.
kiterunner
24-09-19, 11:44
Yes, here we are, 24 Oct 1814:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31547_213346-00527?pid=10066088&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf15919&_phstart=successSource
Witnesses are George Grindley and J Stewardson.
kiterunner
24-09-19, 11:53
And there is the baptism of an Eliza Goodwin 21 Jul 1816 at St Martin in the Fields, daughter of John and Elizabeth Goodwin of 10 Charles Court, father's occupation Coal Porter.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1558/31547_213347-00260/6806635?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d1558%26gsfn%3deliza%26gsln% 3dgo*d*n*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d11%26ms bdy%3d1816%26msbdy_x%3d1%26pcat%3d%26qh%3dpfcNYGAf sj%252fry0zD2J5ckQ%253d%253d%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1%2 6rank%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5%26redir%3dfalse&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
kiterunner
24-09-19, 12:05
Possible burial for John, in beautiful handwriting:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1559/31280_197466-00397/8581116?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d1559%26gsfn%3djohn%26gsln%3 dgo*d*n*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d4%26msdd y%3d1855%26msddy_x%3d1%26pcat%3d%26qh%3dPxS%252b71 TKoHmGGXUr5QoeCw%253d%253d%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1%26r ank%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5%26redir%3dfalse&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
5 May 1855 Paddington
John Goodwin, age 61, of Park Street, Camden Town.
But looking at the 1851 census, there are a few possible John Goodwins of about the right age for that one.
kiterunner
24-09-19, 12:27
Possible for Thomas in 1861:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/MDXRG9_214_218-0330?pid=8587572&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf15936&_phstart=successSource
5 Bull Yard, Finsbury
Thomas Goodwin Head Mar 20 Archery Maker Middlesex St Andrews
Allia(?) Godwin Wife Daug(?) 20 Do Clerkenwell.
Allia can't be the daughter of the other head of house at the address because he is only 32, so I guess the enumerator started to write "Do" for marital status and accidentally continued the wrong way on auto-pilot after writing the D!
kiterunner
24-09-19, 12:32
And a possible for Henry in 1861:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/MDXRG9_192_194-0264?pid=5373645&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf15938&_phstart=successSource
9 1/2 Exmouth St, Finsbury
Henry Goodwin Head Mar 29 Tobacconist & Photographer Middlesex St Andrew Holborn
Emily Agnes Do Wife Mar 25 Do Do
Henry Do Son 5 Scholar Do Clerkenwell
Frederick Do Son 3 Do Do Do
Edwin Do Son 2 Do Do Do
Amelia Do Daur 6 mo Do Do.
Some pretty young "scholars" there!
Wow KiteRunner
I pop out to the shops and return to see your labours! Many thanks, I will look at your discoveries now.
Coming back to this thread, found a marriage
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_197883-00094?treeid=47991812&personid=12837144916&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qoH166&_phstart=successSource&pId=3358159
Allia could well be Cecilia, age matches minor with her being 20 on census, but Thomas' occupation doesn't match. The census was taken nearly 3 weeks before the wedding so unlikely they were living in sin. Saffron Hill is the right area. What was a glass writer though? The piece looks like it should fit but I don't think it does. Can't find another likely marriage. Can't find one to match Henry & Emily Agnes.
Good job this is ex's tree and not a direct ancestor either!
kiterunner
10-10-20, 17:51
I haven't read back through the thread yet, but this is Celia in 1851; her father is a writer and decorator:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/MDXHO107_1514_1515-0117?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx66272&_phstart=successSource&pId=2729094
Did he maybe write on glass? Making signs etc.?
kiterunner
10-10-20, 18:49
Emily Agnes' maiden name (from post #37) was Ayres. But I haven't found a marriage between her and Henry Goodwin yet.
kiterunner
10-10-20, 18:57
There is a baptism 5 Jan 1836 St Andrew Holborn, Emily Amelia, daughter of Thomas and Mary Anne Ayres of Great Bath Street, cabinet maker, dob 16 Nov 1835. Could she be Emily Agnes?
kiterunner
10-10-20, 19:03
Emily Amelia Ayres, daughter of Thomas, married William Cleaver Doughty 22 Aug 1861 at Christ Church Highbury, giving her address as 27 Portefield(?) Street, so I guess it's not her, but will try to find them in 1871 just to make sure.
kiterunner
10-10-20, 19:16
Okay, this is Emily Amelia in 1871 and she doesn't have any of the Goodwin children with her so I guess she is a different person. I will see if I can find the Goodwin children in 1871 now!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_374_377-0456?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx66280&_phstart=successSource&pId=11762895
kiterunner
11-10-20, 10:04
I couldn't find the Goodwin children in 1871 (Henry and Emily Agnes's). But I did find some possible marriages for them later on, so they should be somewhere.
I couldn't find the Goodwin children in 1871 (Henry and Emily Agnes's). But I did find some possible marriages for them later on, so they should be somewhere.
Having done frame by frame searches of that area of London, there are lots of despairing comments by enumerators: "lodgers took form" which account for some of the gaps in the records.
kiterunner
11-10-20, 14:34
Hmm, this thread is certainly living up to its name.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_197392-00315?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx66301&_phstart=successSource&pId=3003183
8 Jun 1852 St Philip, Bethnal Green
Henry Goodwin, 20, bachelor, Buhl(?) fret work cutter, Old Castle Street, son of John Goodwin, interpreter, and Mary Ann Ayres, 22, spinster, Bath Street, daughter of Thomas Ayres, cabinet maker.
The Goodwin / Ayres births that I found on the GRO index were as follows:
Henry Thomas 1853 (died 1853)
Mary Ann 1854
Henry David 1856 - possible marriage 1878 to Susan Martin in Lewisham, but his father is David on the marriage cert
Frederick Henry 1857 - possible marriage 1889 Bethnal Green
Edwin Charles 1858
Amelia Eliza 1860 - possible marriage 1887 West Ham.
I had assumed that Emily Agnes was the mother of all these children, but it looks likely that some of them were Mary Ann's. Off to look for baptisms...
Interpreter?
I would like some consistency with this lot so I can be sure we're following the right people! I took a wrong turn till I found Elizabeth Alice Goodwin's correct baptism at the Westminster Archives (when I was looking for someone else entirely!)
Her husband James/Denis McCarthy/Carter is another tricky customer and I only found out about his father through the efforts of others!
Appreciate all the help Kate.
kiterunner
11-10-20, 14:51
I didn't find any baptisms.
This is Mary Ann Ayres on the 1851 census:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/MDXHO107_1517_1518-0109?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx66302&_phstart=successSource&pId=2781748
Emily Amelia Ayres isn't with them, but surely she is Mary Ann's sister? (see posts #42 and #43.) So it seems too much of a coincidence for her not to be "Emily Agnes", don't you think?
In which case the Henry Goodwin who I found on the 1861 census was supposedly the son of a John Goodwin, interpreter, which doesn't fit with the Henry we were looking for in the first place.
Is this the Charles Goodwin, son of Emily/Elizabeth in 1851:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1851%2F4304009%2F00753&parentid=GBC%2F1851%2F0004022079
Charles Goodwin Head Married Male 25 Teacher Of SingingSt Andrew's, Middlesex, England
Eliza Goodwin Wife Married Female 20 - Plymouth, Devon, England
This is not so bizarre as you might think as Cecilia Ann Brace was living with Frederick Fitchett, a musician, in 1881:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1881%2F4299395%2F01109&parentid=GBC%2F1881%2F0001954625
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