a check on the 1861 census in Garston,please

[garstonite]

Can someone please tell me if I am attempting a real headache here , or...is it possible to find a maiden name this way...?
I have Mary Ellen Jones b Garston ( West Derby register) in 1860
I have David and Mary Jones as parents ...re (I think ) 1861 census in Garston..but I can`t find my info...moved house in Dec and everythings haywire...I have Mary Ellens Marriage cert ..and it states David as father...but again, that`s missing but it is in the house somewhere...can someone confirm that Mary is the mother on the 1861 census...and also, Davids occupation please...I am pretty sure Mary Ellen Jones was their first child...I was wondering if there were any more by 1871....
I am trying , this weekend to find the marriage of David Jones and Mary ????... possibly in St Michaels church in Garston around 1858/59...but before I do I need to confirm Mary as her mum.....do you think trying to find Mary Jones maiden name will be extremely difficult ?
the only David Jones /Mary marriage I can find in West Derby from 1855 to 1860 is in June qtr 1860 and a possible Mary Kelly...but Mary Ellen Jones birth was registered exactly the same qtr, so it is a possible ?
allan:)

[Mary from Italy]

This is presumably her baptism (extracted entry from the IGI):

Mary Ellen Jones
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 05 AUG 1860 St Michael, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Parents:
Father: David Jones
Mother: Mary

[Merry]

Sorry, I can't find anyone that fits the description given in 1861 or 1871.

Who did Mary Ellen marry? Have you got her census records for after the marriage?

[Merry]

Oh, Mary - maybe I have them in 1871 with Mary E b Liverpool rather than Garston?

If that is them then mum is also Mary E. Two children are Mary E 12 and Robert 5 both listed as b Liverpool.

Allan, does David Jones b Cornwall ring any bells?

[Mary from Italy]

I'm having trouble finding them on the 1861 census.

This seems to be the most likely family on the 1871 census:

David Jones, lodger, 38, dock labourer, born Hayle?, Cornwall
Mary E, wife, 41, born Hull, Yorkshire
Robert W, son, 5, born Liverpool
Mary E, daughter, 12, born Liverpool
living at 16 Greenland St., Great George district, Liverpool, as lodgers in the household of Winifred Gallagher.

[Mary from Italy]

Merry beat me to it :)

[Mary from Italy]

Still having trouble finding them on any other censuses.

I think this is the brother:

Births Sep 1863
JONES Robert Walter Liverpool 8b 163

Baptism (IGI, extracted):

Walter Jones
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 21 AUG 1864 St Michael, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Parents:
Father: David Jones
Mother: Mary

The IGI isn't showing any other children baptised to that couple at St. Michael's.

[garstonite]

Thank you all....well I didn`t expect the christenings on IGI....I will have to see if I can find a possible marriage...our church is St Michaels , Garston...
Mary Ellen Jones married Carl Freidrich Sacht b 1848 Heligoland according to census returns,,,Carl and Marys first child Sophia Sacht was born sep qtr 1878 in Garston...she was my dads nan and he told me lots of stories of her...
Sorry Merry....David Jones b Cornwall...?? it`s new to me, but I t wouldn`t be unusual...people came from everywhere in the mid 1800`s to Garston ...it had a Copper works and Saltworks and was the very last dock in South Liverpool...all being built aroun 1850`s....what are your views re -the Hayle,Cornwall birth for David Jones ...
can I point out that 3 miles from Garston is Hale (Hayle ) another village ...this came under the Prescot register...it is famous for John Middleton,,,the Childe of Hale ...
do you think David Jones may have came from Hale 3 miles from Garston ???....I hope so...it would be easier to research....thanx again....allan
BTW...that 1871 census if correct is right opposite the Liver buildings - Great George Gates area...8 miles from Garston....

[Olde Crone]

Allan

Hayle in Cornwall was famous for its copperworks! An area of Hayle is still called Copperhouse today. It also had a busy dockyard in the 1800s - completely gone now of course.

OC

[garstonite]

Thanks OC...that may explain why David Jones came to Garston in the first place...the Copper works...or Dock worker / Stevedore....well ...IF this is my David Jones ( and it looks likely to me ) he is my first from Cornwall in a tree of 578....no wonder I love Cornish Pastys and ice cream....lol....allan:d

[Merry]

I will have to see if I can find a possible marriage...our church is St Michaels , Garston...

But if he was from Cornwall and she was from Yorkshire they might have married anywhere.

[Merry]

Sorry Merry....David Jones b Cornwall...?? it`s new to me,

But you said you had the census stuff before?? I was wondering if he was born in Cornwall on the record you have lost/mislaid :rolleyes: :confused:

[Merry]

What evidence do you have that Mary Ellen was born in Garston and not in Liverpool? (I have ony seen her on two censuses, but both those say Liverpool)

[garstonite]

in my tree I have Mary Ellen babtised 5/8/1860...at St Michaels and it was confirmed on an earlier post , so I suppose it is possible that Mary Ellen was born in Liverpool and babtised in Garston when they moved here...Liverpool City Centre to Garston is about 7 miles.....but...in 1861 census they are in City Centre again ...then Robert Walter is babtised in Garston in 1864...personally , I think we may have 2 different families here, the more I look into it...JONES...a nightmare....allan

[Merry]

in 1861 census they are in City Centre again

Where?

[garstonite]

IF the return Mary from Italy has found , which you also , found, Great George ...opposite The Liver Buildings,,,City Centre
allan

[Merry]

That's 1871!

[garstonite]

Sorry....getting confused...so, where are they in 1861...when we know they are in Garston in 1860.......back in a minute....allan

[Mary from Italy]

in my tree I have Mary Ellen babtised 5/8/1860...at St Michaels and it was confirmed on an earlier post , so I suppose it is possible that Mary Ellen was born in Liverpool and babtised in Garston when they moved here..

The IGI baptism says St Michael's, Liverpool - are you sure that's the same as St Michael's, Garston? I assumed it wasn't.

I can't see any sign of them in Garston on the censuses.

[Merry]

Genuki says St Michael's Liverpool was/is at Upper Pitt Street.

[garstonite]

Huyton - Crosby - Garston - Aintree -and over the Mersey on the Wirral....the nearest St Michaels church to the City Centre is Garston.....
hang on...there was St Michaels in the Hamlet...a cast iron church in Aigburth Liverpool completed in 1815 but it is always titled St Michaels in the Hamlet...I can`t think of any other St Michaels other than Garston that the christening could be at ....allan

[Merry]

Genuki says St Michael's Liverpool was/is at Upper Pitt Street.

That's about 500m north of their addy at Greenland St (1871)

[garstonite]

Upper Pitt st is Toxteth....I can only presume that IGI christening is for that Upper Pitt st church...if so, I have some research to do...I will have to check on that Upper Pitt st ...it may be another one than the Toxteth area ...in a little city centre back lane somewhere...I have never heard of it .....thanks....allan

[Mary from Italy]

It looks as though it still exists, and it's known as "St Michael in the City".

[Mary from Italy]

Anyway, it looks as though you need to get Mary Ellen's birth cert to get her mother's maiden name before you start looking for a marriage.

There are several possible births on FreeBMD, so you'll probably be best to apply to Liverpool Register Office, giving the names of the parents. Give them the date of baptism, so they know there's no need to search after that date.

[Mary from Italy]

I assumed you'd already looked at LancsOPC so I didn't, but the baptisms are there, and you were right, they were at St Michael in the Hamlet:

Baptisms: 5 Aug 1860 St Michael in the Hamlet, Aigburth, Lancashire, England
Mary Ellen Jones - Child of David Jones & Mary
Abode: Wellington Road
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: G. F. Dean Curate
Register: Baptisms 1839 - 1898, Page 96, Entry 764
Source: LDS Film 2147881

Baptisms: 21 Aug 1864 St Michael in the Hamlet, Aigburth, Lancashire, England
Walter Jones - Child of David Jones & May
Abode: Pottery
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: W. Clementson Incumbent
Register: Baptisms 1839 - 1898, Page 115, Entry 914
Source: LDS Film 2147881

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

[garstonite]

Thank you ...but I am not sure of the babtism now am I ?...it would appear that it is St Michaels in the City and not St Michaels Garston.....
allan
ADDED...that`s a little annoying because Everyone in Liverpool says St Michael in the Hamlet....probably to avoid confusion with St Michaels ,Garston...but St Michaels in the City I have never heard of ...AND it`s still there...must be a tiny church down an old back street somewhere...just for curiosity , I must find that church....it might have a nice quaint little pub nearby...lol...so thank you all....in reality I don`t even have Mary Ellen Jones mother now do I ??...on the marriage cert , I know her fathers name is David....I don`t even know where Mary Ellen was born now ...could have been Cornwall or Yorkshire.....a bit down now...never mind...that`s reasearch...still got 3 days holiday to find them.....allan

[Mary from Italy]

There's another baptism there for the same couple:

Baptisms: 23 Mar 1856 St Michael in the Hamlet, Aigburth, Lancashire, England
John Henry Jones - Child of David Jones & Mary
Abode: 14 Wellington Rd
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: J.W. Kewley
Register: Baptisms 1839 - 1898, Page 79, Entry 625
Source: LDS Film 2147881

He presumably died before 1871, or wasn't living with his parents.

[Mary from Italy]

Thank you ...but I am not sure of the babtism now am I ?...it would appear that it is St Michaels in the City and not St Michaels Garston.....


See post #26 :)

It's St Michael's in the Hamlet, which is not far from Garston.

[garstonite]

Yes Mary, I had just posted , but I added ON a little more info...re the Babtisms...realistically John Henry may have been working away in 1871...he would have been 15 ...or even at sea ...so many school leavers went to sea .was the babtism of Walter in 1864 a spelling error when you say MAY as the mother ?....allan

[Mary from Italy]

That's what it says on the transcription, but I assume it's the same couple.

[Mary from Italy]

I don`t even know where Mary Ellen was born now ...could have been Cornwall or Yorkshire

Charles Sacht's wife in 1891 says she was born in Liverpool.

[garstonite]

Charles Sacht's wife in 1891 says she was born in Liverpool.

I knew that...silly old custard that I am..I`m getting dizzy with info...lol
allan:)

[kiterunner]

Allan, when you manage to dig Carl and Mary Ellen's marriage cert out, can you check what it says for Mary Ellen's residence, her father's occupation, and the names of the witnesses, please? That might make it easier to check we're looking at the right people.

[garstonite]

I will do thanks........allan