Robert & Susannah Jones

[Zoemcdougall]

Looking for info on my 3x greatgrand parents , Robert and Susannah, think Robert was b.1791, Susannah not sure of birth. 1796? their Son Ishmael b.1825/6 Caerwys,(GG Grandfather) not sure of anyother siblings,
Would like help to find out the names of Robert & Susannah Parents too.

Ishmael Married to a Prudence Parry, had about 6/7 children, one being my great grandfather Edward Owen Jones.

Thankyou

Zoe

[kiterunner]

Where did they live, please?

[kiterunner]

Ah, this is Ishmael and Prudence with son Edward in 1881:

Pen y Waen, Llanasa, Flintshire
Ishmael Jones Head Mar 55 Book keeper Clerk Flintshire Caerwys
Prudence Do Wife Mar 41 Do Llanasa
William P Do Son 10 Scholar Do Do
Edward O Do Son 8 Do Do Do
Agnes Do Daur 5 Do Do
Ishmael Do Son 4 Do Do

[kiterunner]

So, working backwards:

1871 Old Chapel House, Llanasa
Ishmael Jones Head Mar 43 Book-keeper Flintshire Caerwys
Prudence Jones Wife Mar 31 Do Llanasa
Robert Jones Son 13 Scholar Do Whitford
Mary E Do Daur 10 Do Do Do
Ellen Do Do 10 Do Do Do
Caroline Do Do 5 Do Lancashire Wigan
William P Jones Son 5 mo Flintshire Llanasa

[kiterunner]

Ishmael and Prudence's marriage looks likely to be Jul-Sep 1864 Holywell district (the district for Llanasa) but Prudence's surname is Davies on the index - was she married before?

[kiterunner]

Not found any of them in 1861 yet. This looks to be Ishmael in 1851 with his first wife:

10 Gauden(?) Road, Bychton, Flintshire
Ishmael Jones Head Mar 27 Clerk Flintshire Caerwys
Mary Do Wife Mar 31 Do Whitford
Ann Do Daur 6 Scholar Do Do
Margaret Do Daur 1 Do Do

Next door at number 11 there is this family:
Robert Jones Head Mar 64 Agent in the colliery Do Flint
Mary Do Wife Mar 63 Do Mold
Edward Do Son U 36 Coal Miner Do Flint
Robert Do Son U 25 Do Do Do
William Do Son U 21 Do Do Do

Could be Ishmael's family?

[Zoemcdougall]

Sorry it was Davies Not Parry, thankyou so much for your help. I think Ishmael's Father Robert was a butcher but not certain on that

[Zoemcdougall]

I haven't heard Gauden, but have heard of Caerwys

[kiterunner]

Likely baptism for Ishmael on FamilySearch, which I expect you have already seen:

Ismael Jones born 21 Feb 1823, baptised 25 Feb 1823 Calvinistic Methodist, Caerwys, Flint, Wales, parents Robt Jones and Susanah Owens.

Hmm, I think there was an Owens family the other side of Ishmael's family in 1851.

[kiterunner]

Of course that Robert Jones next door to Ishmael on the census could be no relation as there are so many Joneses about.

Doesn't Ishmael's marriage certificate give his father's occupation?

[kiterunner]

Ah, found this family in 1841 at Wirn(?), Caerwys:
Robert Jones 55 Farmer N
Susanah Jones 50 Y
Margt Jones 25 Y
William Jones 20 Y
Jemima Jones 15 Y
Peter Jones 15 Y
-
Alice Williams 6 Y
John Owens 25 Brewer Y
Elizth Owens 20 Y
Ishmael Jones 15 Y

[kiterunner]

Part of Whitford, Flintshire is missing from the 1861 census, so it's possible that Ishmael is in that missing bit.

[kiterunner]

Google suggests that Wirn should be Wern. Ah, and I see from Googling that you have the same query on Rootschat and someone on there already found Robert and his family at Wern in 1851, so we won't need to search the 1851 for them any more.

[Zoemcdougall]

I unfortunately don't have the marriage of Ishmael's father, the only cert i have is the birth cert of Ishmael's son Edward

[Zoemcdougall]

I was a bit confused with the links with Owens/Williams, I am assuming that the children With the surname Jones are those of Robert & Susannah,

[Zoemcdougall]

Could I have help in finding Robert and Susannah's parents please.

[Merry]

Could I have help in finding Robert and Susannah's parents please.

You aren't going to find Susannah's parents without finding her marriage first!!

I guess with the number of Jones' about in Flintshire (around 20% of the population carried that surname in the Victorian era) you will not ever be able to sort out the right baptism for the dozens of wrong ones, plus the majority of North wales has very few records available online.

[kiterunner]

When the Welsh parish registers do go online in the next year or two, it should hopefully be a bit easier to find the right baptisms because there may be info such as abode, father's occupation, etc which are not given on indexes and transcriptions.

I wouldn't be surprised if Elizabeth Owens turns out to be Robert and Susannah's daughter married to John Owens, and Alice Williams could be the daughter of another married daughter.

Yes, it is going to be tricky to trace people back with a name like Jones. I'll see if I can find anything, though.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou for your help and replies

[kiterunner]

Oh, I forgot that Susannah's maiden name was Owens. It could be that John Owens is a relative of hers, then.

[kiterunner]

So, this is Robert and family in 1851, which they found on Rootschat:

Wern, township of Bryngwyn Isa:
Robert Jones Head Mar 71 Butcher Denbigh, Gwtherin(?)
Susannah Jones Wife Mar 63 Butcher's Wife Flints Caerwys
William Jones Son U 32 Butcher Do Do
Jemima Jones Daur U 27 Butcher's Daughter Do Do
Peter Jones Son U 23 Butcher Do Do
Alice Williams Niece U 15 Scholar Do Holywell

The next household, who may or may not be related, is:
Elizabeth Williams Head U 35 House Keeper Flints Caerwys
John Owens Lodger U 28 Labourer Do Do

If Alice Williams really is a niece rather than a granddaughter, she might be useful in tracing Robert or Susannah's family (depending whose niece she is.)

[kiterunner]

1861 census at Gadlas(?), Kelston, Flintshire:
Robert Jones Head Widr 81 Butcher Denbighshire Gwtherin
William Do Son U 40 Farmer of 84 acres emp 3 lab Flintshire Caerwys
Peter Do Son U 31 Butcher Do Do
Owen Williams Grandson 8 Scholar Do Do
...some servants...
Peter Owens Lodger U 66 Independent Flintshire Caerwys

Peter may turn out to be Susannah's brother. It's often useful to go forwards as far as possible before going backwards, as you can pick up some clues like this from relatives on the census etc.

[Zoemcdougall]

I am truly not good with researching but I do try, and I appreciate any help that is given,

[kiterunner]

I'm just looking to see if I can find out whether Robert Jones left a will, but there are so many Robert Joneses! I may be some time.

[Merry]

When the Welsh parish registers do go online in the next year or two

Kate, do you know on which site that is happening? Trouble is, I need mainly non-conformist records..........:o

[kiterunner]

Can't find a will for Robert Jones. BUT... there is this...

1861
OWENS Peter. 26 November. The Will of Peter Owens late of Gadlys in the Parish of Llanasa in the County of Flint Gentleman deceased who died 10 October 1861 at Gadlys aforesaid was proved at St Asaph by the oath of William Jones of Gadlys aforesaid Farmer and Peter Jones of Gadlys aforesaid Farmer the Nephews the Executors. Effects under £450.

So now we know that Peter Owens was definitely Susannah's brother, which should help in checking if any baptism we might find for Susannah is correct. The entry above is from the National Probate Calendar, which is an index of wills. The will may or may not mention more relatives. If you want a copy of the actual will you can order it for £5 from York:

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm

[kiterunner]

Kate, do you know on which site that is happening? Trouble is, I need mainly non-conformist records..........:o

It's findmypast, Merry:

http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/welsh-parish-records/

But since they mention "the Church in Wales", I doubt if it is going to include non-conformist records. :(

[Zoemcdougall]

I truly appreciate your help, all the names I truly know of are those of Ishmael, wife Prudence, son Edward Owen Jones, and they are all buried in Llanasa.

[kiterunner]

Looks like Gwtherin (Robert Jones' birthplace) is usually spelt Gwytherin.

[kiterunner]

I truly appreciate your help, all the names I truly know of are those of Ishmael, wife Prudence, son Edward Owen Jones, and they are all buried in Llanasa.


It might be a good idea to order a copy of Ishmael and Prudence's marriage certificate to check that it does say Ishmael's father was called Robert, so you know we have the right family for him.

[Zoemcdougall]

I have heard of Gadlys, in LLanasa. from What I do know its quite a big farm.

[kiterunner]

Also, you could look through all the (pre-1858) Jones wills from the parish of Gwytherin from the right time frame on the National Library of Wales site, to see whether any of them mention Robert with enough detail to be sure it's him. The wills on that site are free to view:

http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=487

[Merry]

It's findmypast, Merry:

http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/welsh-parish-records/

But since they mention "the Church in Wales", I doubt if it is going to include non-conformist records. :(

Thanks Kate. No, it won't include non-cons sadly, and there are none on BMD registers for north Wales :(

[Zoemcdougall]

I will order Ishmael & Prudence Jones' wedding cert, how long to the take to arrive.

[kiterunner]

There is a will of William Owens of Caerwys on the National Library of Wales site, from 1835, and he does mention a son Peter Owens and a daughter Susan, but he doesn't give Susan's surname so we don't know whether it's Susannah Jones or not. It's a start, though.

[Merry]

I will order Ishmael & Prudence Jones' wedding cert, how long to the take to arrive.

Roughly a week from the GRO. However, I have found the local register offices in North Wales are very quick - maybe three days.

[kiterunner]

Okay, going back to Alice Williams (Robert and Susannah's niece who is 6 on the 1841 census and 15 on the 1851), there is a baptism on FamilySearch of an Alice Williams 18 Oct 1834 at Holywell, Flint, parents Robert and Anne.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou so much to Kiterunner & Merry, this is very much appreciated, Garstonite told me this site was excellant, and he's right.

[Zoemcdougall]

Merry, is the local register office in Rhyl, ?

[kiterunner]

... and again, William Owens' will mentions a daughter Anne but doesn't give her surname either, so we don't know whether she was Anne Williams.

[Merry]

Merry, is the local register office in Rhyl, ?

I haven't properly read all this thread - which entry is it you want the cert for?

[Merry]

I will order Ishmael & Prudence Jones' wedding cert, how long to the take to arrive.

I guess it's this one? Back in a minute......

[Merry]

Presuming this is it on the GRO index..........

Marriages Sep 1864
Anderson Ann Amelia Holywell 11b 407
Davies Prudence Holywell 11b 407 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Jones Ishmael Holywell 11b 407 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Lay Henry Joseph Holywell 11b 407


You need to go to the North Wales BMD site:

http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/

Click the right hand English side (unless you speak Welsh!)

Then click under the green tab, "Search Marriages"

Entry the year and the groom's name and click display results.

Click the ref for his entry (HOL/06/E14) and click the ref again on the next screen, this will then give you an application form print out and complete, with the postal address (in Mold) on it! You can then fill out the missing bits and send it off with your money - you save 25p over the GRO price too!!!

[Merry]

you save 25p over the GRO price too!!!

Actually, you don't save any money, because you have to add on two stamps and two envelopes!

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou I will order the marriage cert today, of Ishmael & Prudence

Zoe

[Zoemcdougall]

I have just printed out the form to get the marriage cert.

[Merry]

Well done :)

Don't forget to tell us the results of this thread and the one about the Tatlocks and Melias :):) when you receive the certs.

[Zoemcdougall]

I will let you know as soon as I get them, as you have all been very helpful,

Thankyou

[Zoemcdougall]

I received this morning the marriage cert of Ishmael and Prudence, married 1864, states Ishmael was a widower, Prudence was spinster, His father was Herbert Jones not Robert.

[kiterunner]

What does it say for Ishmael's father's occupation, please?

[Zoemcdougall]

The occupation for Ishmael's father was a farmer. as was Prudence's father William Davies

[kiterunner]

Oh, and sorry, should have asked before, who are the witnesses on the marriage cert?

[Zoemcdougall]

Witnesses William Parry & Elizabeth Parry.

[kiterunner]

I wonder if Herbert is a mistranscription of Robert, because the Robert that we found on the censuses was a farmer in 1841, though later on he was a butcher. Do you know whether the copy of the cert that you have is a photocopy of the original certificate (with signatures in different handwriting), or has it been copied out or typed up?

[Zoemcdougall]

I have the cert in front of me, but the writing on it is not very clear, I asked my husband to look at the name of Ishmael's father he thinks it could be Robert, but to me it looks like it looks like Herbert, I think it is a copy of the original.

[Margaret in Burton]

Can you scan the cert and crop it so that we can just see the name that is causing a problem?

[Zoemcdougall]

sorry to be a pain but how do I attach the cert so you can view it, I've scanned it into computer

[kiterunner]

This should help:
http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#faq_vb3_attachment s

[Zoemcdougall]

I've tried several times to upload pic, but too no avail but will keep trying, so you can see the cert

[Zoemcdougall]

Ishmael & Prudence's Wedding cert, is name of Ishmael's father Robert or Herbert?

[kiterunner]

It looks like "Robert" to me as there is only one letter between the capital letter at the beginning and the "b". Bit of a scrawl, though.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kiterunner, so if it was Robert, do you think that Robert & Susannah Jones nee Owens were the Parents of Ishmael,? or Would I need to order the Marriage cert of his Marriage to his first wife.?

Would I have to order Prudence's Birth cert to find out who her Mother was. I have her father's name William Davies

[kiterunner]

Yes, I think Robert and Susannah were Ishmael's parents.

I'll see what I can find out about Prudence. I don't think we tried to trace her line back before, but those marriage witnesses might be enough of a clue to work out which birth cert to get, if they are related to her.

Back in a minute...

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou so much, it's very much appreciated, would I be able to obtain a copy of Robert & Susannah Wedding cert?

[kiterunner]

Hmmm, on the marriage cert (1864) Prudence is 28, but on the 1871 census she is 31 and on the 1881 she is 41. Her residence on the marriage cert is Axton, Llanasa, father William Jones, farmer.

There is this family at Axton on the 1851 census (remember part of the 1861 census for Llanasa is missing, so we might not find her on that one)
William Davies Head Mar 45 Miner Flintshire Llanasa
Caroline Do Wife Mar 40 Do Do
Prudence Do Daught 10 Do Do
Edward Do Son 4 Do Do

This seems to be them in 1841, also at Axton:
David Davies 81 Ag Lab N
William Do 30 Y
Caroline Do 30 Y
Frances Do 4 Y
Sarah Do 2 Y

If this is the right family then I can't see a birth registration for Prudence! Of course not all births were registered in those days.

[Zoemcdougall]

So are the children named on the 1841 census, Siblings to Prudence, Why do you think the difference of her age on her marriage cert aged 28 in 1864, but like you pointed on the 1871 census she was 31? instead of 35? confusing!

[kiterunner]

1871 census - Bryn Brandy(?), previous households are Axton
Edward Davies Head Mar 25 Coal Miner Flintshire Axton
Ann Do Wife Mar 25 Do Glanyr Anw(??? probably nothing like it!)
Caroline Do Mother W 60 Do Axton
Caroline Davies Daur 2 Do Do
Elizabeth Do Daur 2mo Do Do
William Hughes Uncle Widr 90 Late Collier Denbighshire Betws

(Late collier will mean he was retired.)

So Caroline's husband William Davies had died by 1871, which would fit with "deceased" on Prudence's marriage cert, but the only occupation I've found for him so far on the censuses is Miner. There is no occupation for him on the 1841 census so he could have been an Ag Lab then, like the head of household.

Just seen your question - relationships aren't stated on the 1841 census so we need to double-check, but probably Prudence's sisters.

[kiterunner]

FamilySearch has a baptism for Frances Davies 1 Apr 1837 at Llanasa, parents William and Caroline.

[Zoemcdougall]

Edward Davies mentioned on the 1871 census is the brother of Prudence, and that his wife's name was Ann, am I right, I get a bit confused sometimes, so I'm sorry for asking silly questions.

[kiterunner]

Not a silly question at all, Zoe! Yes, Edward was Prudence's brother and his wife's name was Ann. Ishmael and Prudence had children named Edward and Caroline, didn't they, so it seems to fit nicely.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kiterunner your so kind!!, and your help is very much appreciated. The David Davies mentioned on the 1841 census, Would that be the father of William Davies?

Zoe

[kiterunner]

I don't know, Zoe. He could be, but he could be some other relative such as grandfather, uncle...

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kite runner,

[Janet]

For those having trouble seeing the thumbnail, I discovered that right-clicking on the image and opening in a new tab or new window allows it to be seen at a larger size. (Use the old Control-Plus trick.)

[Zoemcdougall]

I don't know if I have this right but I think I have found what could be the names of the parents of Robert "James b.1749" mother Elizabeth, no idea on Susannah parents?

Zoe

[kiterunner]

Can you tell us where you found James and Elizabeth, please, Zoe?

And if you look back through this thread, especially posts #26 and #35, there is a William Owens who died in 1835 who could be Susannah's father. Now we know that Robert and Susannah are definitely Ishmael's parents, you might want to order Robert Owens' will (Susannah's brother, explained in post #26) to see if he mentions other family members. Also if you haven't already looked at William Owens' will you should have a read of that (see post #35, and post #32 for the link).

[Zoemcdougall]

On Ancestry was someone else looking for Robert & Susannah, they had the Names of James & Elizabeth as the parents of Robert, but not sure if that is right

[kiterunner]

I can't see where on ancestry that is, Zoe; could you post a link to it or some info on how to get to it, please?

I can see an ancestry tree which has a Robert Jones about 1780 in Henllan, Denbighshire, parents James born 1749 and Elizabeth, but that isn't your Robert because it says he was in Henllan on the 1851 census. No idea whether Henllan is anywhere near Gwytherin.

If Robert's father was called James I would expect Robert to have a son called James and he doesn't seem to have had one, though of course there could be one that we haven't found yet. Hopefully when the Welsh parish registers go online we will be able to look for Robert's baptism.

[kiterunner]

I don't know whether you ever looked through the wills made by various Joneses of Gwytherin to see if they mention a Robert? There are quite a few which you would need to look through but I did have a look at the William Jones one dated 30 Jul 1824 and proved 14 Jun 1827, and he had sons named in the will John, Robert, David, Thomas, Moses, Evan(s), Henry, and Edward, and a daughter Mary (listed between David and Thomas). Executors were sons William and David and daughter Mary, so I would think William was his oldest son and had already received his share. Robert not being an executor despite being older than David would fit with him living in another county so it could be your Robert. But there are so many Joneses about that this could easily be a different Robert. Your Robert did have a son William who was probably his eldest son, so I wouldn't be surprised if his father was called William.

Edit - no, not them because I've found some of those brothers on the 1851 census and they are all much younger than your Robert. Back to the drawing board...

[Merry]

No idea whether Henllan is anywhere near Gwytherin.


About ten miles as the crow flies.

I think Denbighshire is only beaten by Merionethshire for Jones density. (In Merioneth some places have over 25% of the population named Jones in the 1800s!)

[Zoemcdougall]

I know this an old thread, but I have think I now have found the Marriage Banns for Robert & Susannah on Family search, marriage banns 5th Aug 1811. Would like to try and get a copy of their cert, but can't find a Ref no.

[kiterunner]

Wow, this is a blast from the past!

Firstly, no, it's not marriage banns - it is the actual marriage record and they married by licence. Secondly, there wouldn't be GRO ref nos for an 1811 wedding as it was before 1837.

Thirdly, you just have to click the link through from FamilySearch to Findmypast to view the full marriage entry image, and FMP is free today, so do it quick if you don't have a sub! I will post the direct FMP link to save you time:

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS/WAL/4328502/00077&parentid=GBPRS/M/885004693/1

Luckily, it gives both their fathers' names although this was very unusual before 1837. Robert is 27, son of William Jones, and Susannah 21, daughter of William Owens.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thanks Kate, Yes certainly it is a blast from the past, lets hope I could get some luck with my Elusive Great grandfather, Edward, now that is a blast from the past!