can anybody find her in 1901 or her death

[vallee]

Mary Ann Sperring born abt 1834 Midsomer Norton Somerset
1841 in Somerset with family
1851 ditto
1857 married Jesse kemp
1861 with Jesse kemp and children Emily born 1857 and Alfred born 1859 living in Regents park St Pancras
1871 Jesse is by himself in Shoreditch as Mary had left him no sign of her and the children
1881 she is Mary Tyler wife of George Tyler but no sign of a marriage with her two new children Walter 8 and Charles 6 living in Bethnal Green he is an Ironmonger
1891 Mary and George no sign of children are still in Bethnal Green he is still an Ironmonger
1901 cannot find either of them
1911 George is by himself as a Widow in a Workhouse in Shoreditch
1916 He dies in the Workhouse
according to a letter by Dr Barnados Mary is alive in 1899 living in Bethnal Green Road as Mrs Mary Tyler
Can anybody find her and the children in 1871 and help me narrow down her death PLEASE

[MargaretMarch]

Can you give the references for the censuses where you have found Jesse in 1871?
How do you know that Mary Tyler is your Mary Kemp?
Margaret

[Merry]

Do you know which of these is the son Walter, aged 8 in 1881?

Births Jun 1872
TYLER Walter William G Holborn 1b 680

Births Jun 1873
TYLER Walter Holborn 1b 702

[kiterunner]

Alfred is down as 3 months old on the 1861 census, which would mean he was born in 1861, not 1859, wouldn't it?

The IGI has a baptism at St Leonards Shoreditch 17 Dec 1864 for an Alice Grace Kemp born 22 Dec 1864, parents Jesse and Mary, if that's any help?

[MargaretMarch]

I think I've found the Jesse Kemp you are referring to in 1871 here ref RG10; Piece: 440; Folio: 79; Page: 46.
How can you be sure he is your man? his occupation is shown as fur skin dyer, whereas in 1861 he is a coachman. I would be a bit hesitant to say these are the same men, myself.
Margaret

[kiterunner]

And of course I just realised we can look the baptisms up on ancestry!

Emily baptised Mar 7th 1858 All Hallows, Tottenham
Alfred William baptised Jan 1st 1860 Christ Church St Pancras, so he was born 1859, sorry.
Alice Grace baptised 17 Jan 1864 St Leonard Shoreditch, date of birth 22 Dec 1863, residence 23 Nelson(?) St.

[Merry]

Alfred is down as 3 months old on the 1861 census, which would mean he was born in 1861, not 1859, wouldn't it?



Yes, there's a birth reg in Greenwich for him in Q1 1861.

Where does Martha Tyler aged 14 in 1881 fit in? I assumed she was George T's child from a previous relationship, but I can't find her in 1871.

[kiterunner]

Is this Walter's baptism?
John Walter Kemp, baptised Nov 25 1873 St Pancras Old Church, mother Mary Ann Kemp, Workhouse.

[Merry]

Alfred William baptised Jan 1st 1860 Christ Church St Pancras, so he was born 1859, sorry.


Oh, that's wierd Kite - maybe they had two sons called Alfred?

[vallee]

hi and thanks have
Alfred William Kemp Birth Cert 13 November 1859 Thanet Road Broadstairs Kent
its the second Walter born in 1873 do have his birth cert
1871 RG10 440 79 page 46 Jessie kemp born 1829 Tottenham
Its a long story but a contact told me about her and a Tyler

[MargaretMarch]

The Alfred shown as 3 months on the 1861 is born Kent Div11 whatever that means. So my money is on the one born Greenwich.
I can't see them having two sons named Alfred so close together unless the first one died very quickly.
I wonder if we have two parallel families here?
Margaret

[vallee]

have never found that birth before for Alice Grace ?? thats amazing always thought they only had two kids ??? thanks a lot Nelson Street is the address of Emily her daughter after her marriage
Walters Birth Cert just says Walter never thought to look for a Baptisim
Martha was George's child by his wife Elizabeth Graveney
I cant take all this in thanks so much
how did you find her in the workhouse please ??????????????

[Merry]

The Alfred shown as 3 months on the 1861 is born Kent Div11 whatever that means. So my money is on the one born Greenwich.
I can't see them having two sons named Alfred so close together unless the first one died very quickly.
Margaret

But Val has the 1859 birth cert, presumably with the correct mmn on it?

And where is that child (the 1859 one) in 1861?

[vallee]

oh and jesse did alternate between Coachman and Fur skin Dryer as was his son in law

[kiterunner]

how did you find her in the workhouse please ??????????????

Sorry, Val, I haven't found her in the workhouse, I just found that 1873 baptism which gives her residence as Workhouse. But it does suggest she was still calling herself Kemp in 1871 and didn't move in with George Tyler till after 1873.

[Merry]

Now I'm really confused!

Kite found that baptism re John Walter Kemp in 1873 and presumably this is the birth reg for that child:

Births Dec 1873
KEMP John Walter Pancras 1b 131

But two quarters previously Walter Tyler was born.

Are we saying they have the same mother???????

[kiterunner]

Maybe that John Walter Kemp isn't the right one after all, then.

[vallee]

Can you tell me what date you saw for Walters birth on that record as I am seeing 25 November 1873 mine was born 22 Mar 1873 unless she lied?

[kiterunner]

The date of birth on the baptism for John Walter Kemp is 25 Nov 1873, so it sounds as though he isn't your Walter after all, sorry. So Mary could be calling herself Tyler in 1871 then.

[Merry]

Val, there are two birth registrations, so they are not the same child. Can't be the same mother either as the births are too close, so if you have the Q2 1873 birth cert for Walter Tyler and it has the right mum I suppose we would have to discount the baptism Kite found (though it looks oh so likely to be the right woman!)

[vallee]

that Alice is mine thanks so much did not know about her nor does my contact so he will be pleased going to see what happened to her ???
Thanks everyone just wish I could pinpoint Marys death ?

[kiterunner]

I've been trying to find out what happened to Alice but getting nowhere with that!

[Merry]

They all seem to vanish, even including John Walter who probably isn't connected! lol

[MargaretMarch]

Did the emigrate?
Margaret

[kiterunner]

I did find a possible for Alice as a servant in 1881 but can't be sure if it's her or not. Nothing after that.

[vallee]

I cannot find any of them either in 1871 ?? its most odd maybe they were hiding from Jesse
Think I have found Alice as a servant in 1881
RG11 1726 103 41
ooh so excited about this new child thanks again

[vallee]

found another child now James Tyler baptised 2 Jul 1872 St Augustines Haggerston Can somebody confirm if this would be his Birth ?? Dec 1871 Shoreditch
and would love some help finding Alice Grace Kemp born 1864 Shoreditch after her birth if somebody has a spare year or two ??? thanks

[vallee]

found Marys Death now thanks

[kiterunner]

That's good, Val - are you going to give us the details?

[vallee]

oop yes she died in 1903 in Shoreditch Infirmary , still not found her in 1901 though ?

[Merry]

Have you tried looking under her initials in case she was in an institution?

[vallee]

yes thanks Merry tried all that , did find the man she was living with as a widower in 1901 ?? dont worry I am quite happy now I have her Death .