View Full Version : I can't absorb this legalese
BK6 updated from this thread
I doubt anyone will want to read this, as it's pretty long. :o It's a transcript I've done myself of documents held at the Herts CRO which I believe refer in part to my 3xg-grandfather, James Smith, tailor of Wadesmill, Standon, Herts.
I just (lol!) need someone to explain in ordinary English what it's all about :o:o:o:o
See the next post ........
Manor of Thundridge
Received 16th January 1806 of Mrs Grout the sum of twenty six pounds for fine on Admission to Copyholds lately belonging to Thomas Brown.
fine 26.0. 0
fees 3.16.0
Also 3s 2d for 2 years Quit Rent due Michs last
29.16.4
......3.2
29.19.6
Thomas Nicholson, Steward
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The Manor of Thundridge in the County of Hertford
Be it Remembered that on the twelfth day of July in the Year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and six In their proper persons came before me Thomas Nicholson Gentleman Steward of the Courts of the said Manor Philip Grout of Puckeridge in the parish of Standon in the County of Hertford Collarmaker and Sarah his wife one of the Customary Tenants of the said Manor and also John Brown of Monmouth Street London Taylor [sic] the eldest son and Heir at Law of Joseph Brown late of Hoddesdon in the said County of Hertford Taylor [sic] deceased who was the eldest Son and Heir at Law of Thomas Brown late of Wadesmill in the Parish of Standon in the said County of Hertford Taylor [sic] deceased late one of the Customary Tenants of the said Manor (she the said Sarah being first solely and apart from her said Husband examined by one the said Steward and consenting) and did out of Court according to their several Estates Rights and Interests Surrender by the Rod into the hands of the Lord of the said Manor by the hands and acceptance of me the said Steward according to the Custom of the said Manor All that messuage or Tenement with the appurtenances situate standing and being in Wadesmill Street in the said County of Hertford abutting upon the Kings Highway leading from Wadesmill towards Ware on the East part and adjoining the Messuage or Tenement hereinafter mentioned on the South part And also that other Messuage or Tenement with the appurtenances situate standing and being in Wadesmill Street aforesaid adjoining the said Messuage or tenement towards the North and abutting upon the said Highway towards the East formerly in the occupation of George Dale and afterwards of John Sly Together with all Houses Outhouses Barns Stables Yards Gardens Orchards Ways Waters Watercourses Commons Common of Pasture Rights Privileges Advantages and Appurtenances whatsoever to the said Messuages or Tenements and premises or any of them …………
[the rest of this doc is missing]
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The manor of Thundridge In the County of Hertford}
The special customary Court of Gilbert Gardiner Esquire Lord of the said Manor holden in and for the said Manor at the House of Francis Titmuss known by the sign of the Bull on Tuesday the thirtieth day of December in the forty seventh Year of the Reign of our Sovereign Lord George the Third by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland King Defender of the Faith and in the year of our Lord One thousand eight hundred and six before Thomas Nicholson Gentleman Steward there
At this Court it is witnessed by the Steward aforesaid upon their Oath present that on the twelfth day of June [July in previous doc] in the Year of Our Lord One thousand eight hundred and six in their proper persons came before the said Steward Philip Grout of Puckeridge in the parish of Standon in the said County of Hertford Collarmaker and Sarah his wife one of the Customary tenants of the said Manor and also John Brown of Monmouth Street in London Tailor the eldest son and Heir at Law of Joseph Brown late of Hoddesdon in the said County of Hertford Tailor deceased late a Customary Tenant of the said Manor (she the said Sarah being first solely and apart from her said Husband examined by the said Steward and consenting) and did out of Court according to their several Estates Rights and Interests surrender by the Rod into the hands of the Lord of the said Manor by the Hands and acceptance of the said Steward according to the custom of the said Manor All that Messuage or Tenement with the appurtenances situate standing and being in Wadesmill Street in the said County of Hertford abutting upon the King’s Highway leading from Wadesmill towards Ware on the East part and adjoining the Messuage or Tenement hereinafter mentioned on the South part And also all that other Messuage or tenement with the appurtenances situate standing and being Wadesmill Street aforesaid adjoining the said Messuage or Tenement towards the North and abutting upon the said highway towards the East formerly in the Occupation of George Dale and afterwards of John Sly Together with all Houses Outhouses Barns Stables Yards Gardens Orchards Ways Waters Watercourses Commons Common of Pasture Rights Privileges Advantages and Appurtenances whatsoever to the said Messuages or Tenements and premises or any of them belonging or anywise appertaining as the same were then in the Tenure or occupation of Elizabeth Brown Widow and George Cook or one of them their or one of their Undertenants or Assigns and to which premises the said Sarah Grout was admitted Tenant under the Will of the said Thomas Brown at a special Court Baron holden for the said Manor on or about the sixteenth day of January last And the Reversion and Reversions Remainder and Remainders And all the Estate Right Title Interest Inheritance Use Trust property possession claim and Demand whatsoever of them the said Phillip Grout and Sarah his Wife and John Brown and each and every of them of in and to the same premises and every part and parcel thereof To the Use and Behoof of James Smith of Wadesmill in the Parish of Standon aforesaid Tailor his Heirs and Assigns for ever And Now at this Court come the said James Smith and humbly prays of the Lord of the said Manor to be admitted Tenant of the said Messuages or Tenements and Premises according to the Form and Effect of the said Surrender To whom the Lord of the said Manor by his said Steward granteth and delivereth seisin thereof by the Rod To have and to hold the said Messuages or Tenements Hereditaments and premises with their Appurtenances unto the said James Smith’s Heirs and Assigns for ever of the Lord of the said Manor by the Rod at the Will of the Lord according to the Custom of the said Manor by the yearly Rents Suit of Court Customs and other Services thereof heretofore due and of right accustomed And he gives to the Lord for Fines for such his Estate and Entry in the premises as appear in the Margin(?) and his Tr???? Is respited (?) and so saving always the Right of the Lord the said James Smith is admitted Tenant of the several premises aforesaid in Form aforesaid
Examined by me
Thomas Nicholson
Steward
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Manor of Thundridge
Received 30th Dec 1806 of Mr James Smith seventeen pounds for a fine on his admission to a Copyhold Estate purchased of Philip Grout and Sarah his wife.
£17.0.0
Thomas Nicholson Steward of this Manor
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The Manor of Thundridge
Received this 30th Day of April 1813 of Mr James Smith the sum of seven shillings and 11d for five years Quit rent due on Michaelmas Day last past to the Lord of the said manor.
£0.7.11
£0.0.6 Acquittance
Thomas Nicholson Steward
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The Manor of Thundridge
Mr James Smith
To
Danl Giles Esq
Attested Copy of Absolute Surrender [there’s another doc the same as this which doesn’t say it’s an Attested copy, just “taken this Day and year written 17th Aug 1824”]
Dated 17th August 1824
The Manor of Thundridge in the County of Hertford }
Be it remembered that on the seventeenth day of August in the year of our Lord One Thousand eight hundred and twenty four James Smith of Wadesmill in the Parish of Standon in the said County of Hertford Tailor one of the Customary Tenants of the said Manor in consideration of the sum of Six hundred and fifty pounds to him the said James Smith paid by Daniel Giles of Youngsbury in the said county Esquire Lord of the said Manor Did out of Court surrender by the rod into the hands of the Lord of the said Manor by the hands and acceptance of John Goodwin and James Brett two other customary Tenants of the said Manor according to the custom thereof All that Messuage or Tenement with the appurtenances situate standing and being in Wadesmill Street in the County of Hertford abutting upon the King’s Highway leading from Wadesmill towards Ware on the East part and adjoining the Messuage or Tenement hereinafter mentioned on the South part. And also all that other Messuage or Tenement with the appurtenances situate standing and being in Wadesmill Street aforesaid adjoining the said Messuage or Tenement towards the North and abutting upon the said Highway towards the East formerly in the occupation of George Dale afterwards of John Sly and now of John Smith and the Widow Brown (and to which premises the said James Smith was admitted Tenant at a Special Court Baron held within and for the said Manor on the thirtieth day of December in the year of our Lord One thousand eight hundred and Six Together with all Houses Outhouses Edifices Buildings Yards Gardens and appurtenances to the said Messuages or Tenements and Premises belonging or in anywise appertaining or accepted reputed dec??ed taken or known as part parcel or member thereof and the reversion and reversions remainder and remainders rents issues and profits of the same premises and all the Estate right Title Interest Use Trust Inheritance Benefit Property Claim and Demised whatsoever of him the said James Smith of in and to the same premises To The Use and Behoof of the said Daniel Giles Lord of the said Manor his Heirs and Assigns absolutely for ever.
This is a true Copy of the Original Surrender taken the day and year first above written out of Court by us}
James Smith
John Goodwin
James Brett
It's about land copyhold to the manor. People could "buy" land from the Lord but had to pay an annual "fine" ie ground rent. When the land was sold on the quitting tenant had to pay a quit fee and the new owner pay for admission to the land.
The land was surrendered back to the Lord every year and the "fine" paid.
Also heirs had to pay for admission to land left them in wills.
Does that make it easier to understand or is there more?
Thanks Gwynne. :)
What's happening with the £650 in the last section?
kiterunner
14-03-11, 12:37
I think James Smith sold a property to Daniel Giles for £650.
And went on a world cruise with it? :(
He died 5th July 1859 which is during the first gap in the NPI on Ancestry. However, I'm fairly sure (yes I know, if I had made a note I would be certain! :o) you kindly looked at the Probate Index before Ancestry had it, but didn't find anything.
Yup, it was sold. He may have been liquidating assets to divide between his children before he died, some of mine did that and lived on an annuity.
anne fraser
14-03-11, 16:32
I think a copyhold tennancy could pass twice within 99 years to a relative without a fine being paid but after that you had to buy the tennancy again.
This is wikipaedia At its origin in medieval England, copyhold tenure was tenure of land according to the custom of the manor, the "title deeds" being a copy of the record of the manor court.
The privileges granted to each tenant, and the exact services he was to render to his lord in return for them, were described in a book kept by the Steward, who gave a copy of the same to the tenant; consequently these tenants were afterwards called copyholders in contrast to freeholders.[1]
Two main kinds of copyhold tenure developed: Copyhold of Inheritance and Copyhold for Lives.
Copyhold of inheritance had one main tenant landholder who paid rent and undertook duties to the Lord. When they died, the holding normally passed to their next heir - who might be the eldest son/daughter (primogeniture); or youngest son/daughter (Borough English or ultimogeniture); or a division between children (partible inheritance), depending upon the custom of that particular manor. During their life the tenant could usually 'sell' the holding to another person by formally surrendering it to the Lord to be regranted to them. This was recorded in the court roll and formed the new 'copyhold' for the purchaser.
Copyhold for Lives worked in a different way. Three named persons were nominated. The first-named was the holder tenant and held for the duration of their life. The other two were said to be 'in reversion and remainder' and effectively formed a queue. When the first life died, the second-named inherited the property and nominated a new third life for the end of the new queue. These were recorded in the court rolls as the 'copyhold' for this type of tenant. It was not usually possible for these holdings to be sold, as there were three lives with an entitlement. Copyhold for Lives is therefore regarded as a less secure tenancy than Copyhold for Inheritance.
Genealogists may find it helpful to note that copyhold land often did not appear in a will. This is because its inheritance was already pre-determined, as just described. It could not therefore be given or devised in a will to any other person.
I know my grandfather's smallholding passed to his widow and then his eldest daughter who surrendered it when she could no longer manage the land.
Pass the panadol lol. Thanks for that anne :) *reads three times*
So, James Smith may have both inherited and passed on this property without any wills being required?
Did he own it throughout the 1806-1824 period?
Should it be possible, through Manor records, to discover who he inherited the property from?
Olde Crone
15-03-11, 07:20
Yes, it SHOULD be possible to find out where and how he acquired the land, through Manorial records, always presuming the records have survived of course.
Some of mine go back many centuries. I have one family which had three lots of three lives tenancy on the same bit of land, which covered about 250 years, from memory.
OC
*drives to Hertfordshire*
*drives to Hertfordshire*
You wouldn't mind going via Yorkshire and Bristol, would you????
This thread has brought back nightmares of Elizabeth Ariel's will. Her husband contested that and won even though she used his solicitors....
You wouldn't mind going via Yorkshire and Bristol, would you????
This thread has brought back nightmares of Elizabeth Ariel's will. Her husband contested that and won even though she used his solicitors....
They must have been laughing all the way to the bank :(
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