Ann Mary ? or just plain Ann ?

[maggie_4_7]

My mother's father's mother's mother's mother.

Name:
Ann Mary or Ann
On the children’s baptisms that I have the early ones starting at 1814 the parents names are William and Ann and then 1820 William and Ann Mary but then there is a big gap until the later ones 1830-1833 the parents names are William and Ann Mary so it might be two women first wife Ann and second wife Ann Mary same man though. The child born in 1830 is named Ann Mary! Or perhaps I just haven't found the other baptisms in between.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&f3=charlotte&f4=horton&sx=&f16=&f17=&rg_f18__date=1814&rs_f18__date=0&f24=%2c&f19=&f9=william&f13=ann&gskw=&db=lmabirths&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=0&h=534882&recoff=10+11+33+34+45+46
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&f3=william&f4=horton&=&f16=&f17=&rg_f18__date=1820&rs_f18__date=0&f24=%2c&f19=&f9=william&f13=ann&gskw=&db=lmabirths&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=0&h=1242392&recoff=15+17+44+46+57+58
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&f3=ann+mary&f4=horton&=&f16=&f17=&rg_f18__date=1830&rs_f18__date=0&f24=%2c&f19=&f9=william&f13=ann&gskw=&db=lmabirths&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=0&h=1380518&recoff=15+16+17+44+45+46+57+58



Date and place of birth:
Unknown

Names of parents:
Unknown

Date and place of baptism:
Unknown

Details of each of his or her marriages:
Not found actual marriage.
Marriage to William Horton about 1813 possibly Aldgate/Spitalfields first child’s baptism found is Charlotte Horton my gg grandmother in 1814 at St Botolph Aldgate and they lived at Cock and Hoop Yard. Parents names William and Ann and William is a Dyer.

Occupation(s):
Unknown

Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK):

Haven’t found Ann or Ann Mary or her husband William Horton on any census William was born about at 1788 but who knows really I don't have any documentation to prove DOB and his profession was a Dyer.

Date, place and cause of death:
Unknown

Date and place of burial:
Unknown

Details of will / administration of their estate:
Unknown

Memorial inscription:
Unknown

[kiterunner]

Ann Mary jr was actually born in 1822 if you look at the 1830 baptisms carefully - Sarah was born in 1825 and no date of birth is given for Harriet so she was probably born in 1830.

[kiterunner]

Have you seen a baptism 26 Sep 1813 at St Botolph Bishopsgate of a William Samuel Edward, born Septr 10 1813, son of William and Ann Mary Horton of 4 Dunnings Alley, hatter?

[kiterunner]

Hmm, there is this family in Mile End New Town in 1841 who almost fit:
Mary Horton 45 Weaver Y
Sarah Horton 15 Y
Ann Horton 16 Y
Amelia Horton 14 Y
Saml Horton 8 Y
Willm Horton 45 Weaver Y

[kiterunner]

Ooh, how about this marriage?
Christchurch Newgate Street, 16 Nov 1812, William Horton otp bach & Ann Mary Westerfor otp spin, by banns, witnesses John Bunnley(?) and Ann Reeve.

Ancestry have transcribed the bride's name as Mary because it is quite difficult to make out the bit that says Ann at the top, but it is very clear on her signature.

[kiterunner]

And this looks like some of that family (from the 1841 census) in 1851, and look at William's occupation!

4 Gibralter Walk, Bethnal Green
William Hill Head Mar 24 Gun Smith Jyn London Midd
Amelia Do Wife Mar 25 Weaveress Lancashire
William Do Son 10 mos London
William Horton Visitor Widower 56 Dyer Jyn London

[maggie_4_7]

Sorry after I posted that I realised I was working from notes on baptisms passed to me rather than birth dates on the actual baptism records that I've obviously downloaded! :o

But I decided that there was still a conundrum on the name and was considering editing my post yet again but hadn't got around to it ... Sorry

Yes I have seen that baptism and it is possible that it's another son William born earlier that died and then William and Ann had another and called him the same name. We (i.e our Family Historians) believe it could be the first child. Hatter and Dyer aren't too far apart in occupations but we've never been able to prove one way or the other as yet because we've never found a marriage for William and Ann and where they come from.

And I've yet to look at that census but I think you just might have found them they did have an Amelia although her baptism has never been found yet I think she is Harriet Amelia (which we've found a baptism for) we found a marriage in 1847 for Amelia Horton to a man called Samuel William Hill.

Shall go and look now at the census.

[maggie_4_7]

The children I have so far is:-

Charlotte Horton Born 1814 – Died August 1889 <---- my ancestor she was born deaf it seems

Elizabeth Caroline Horton born 1817 –

William Samuel Horton born 1820 –

Ann Mary Horton born 1822 –

Sarah Horton born 1825 –

Harriet Amelia Horton born 1827 –

Samuel Horton born 1833 –

[maggie_4_7]

oooh oooh I can't keep up hold on.:)

Looks like Harriet used her middle name Amelia and Samuel used his middle name of William!!!!

Well how do they expect us to find them then :rolleyes:

[maggie_4_7]

Ooh, how about this marriage?
Christchurch Newgate Street, 16 Nov 1812, William Horton otp bach & Ann Mary Westerfor otp spin, by banns, witnesses John Bunnley(?) and Ann Reeve.

Ancestry have transcribed the bride's name as Mary because it is quite difficult to make out the bit that says Ann at the top, but it is very clear on her signature.

I have seen that entry this morning and didn't look at it for some reason but there's always been a discrepancy with the name Ann and Mary a distant cousin in California who came over here many years ago found records with her name as Ann Mary, Ann and Mary so it's always been a bit dodgy but we decided her name was really Ann Mary something or other.

I think for me my Hortons are like my Worleys they were so much visited before the internet that notes have been taken in a hurry and not enough time to digest the information and study it and history has been manipulated because we/us didn't have access to it all like we do today. And we left them on the back burner with the conundrums and the old assumptions ...

Thank you.

[maggie_4_7]

Thank you Kiterunner I think you've just broken one of my little walls...

[maggie_4_7]

And this looks like some of that family (from the 1841 census) in 1851, and look at William's occupation!

4 Gibralter Walk, Bethnal Green
William Hill Head Mar 24 Gun Smith Jyn London Midd
Amelia Do Wife Mar 25 Weaveress Lancashire
William Do Son 10 mos London
William Horton Visitor Widower 56 Dyer Jyn London

Magic :)

[kiterunner]

There don't seem to be many Westerfores, Westerfords, Westifords etc. around, though! There is an Edward Westerford who got married a couple of times, and there is a couple called John and Mary Ann Westiford who had a son William baptised 16 Oct 1826 at St Leonard Shoreditch, abode New Inn Yard, weaver, who might be connected to Ann Mary, but I can't see Ann Mary's baptism at the moment.

It doesn't help that sites such as ancestry and FamilySearch treat Ann Mary as interchangeable with Mary Ann!

[maggie_4_7]

Thanks for all your help Kiterunner.

I do believe that is the marriage of my William Horton but don't know how to conclusively prove that I only wish they had put the men's occupations on those Banns in those days would have made life a bit easier for us family historians :)

Although that 1841 I do think it's them but again it says Mary not Ann or Ann Mary and William has Weaver I expect the enumerator didn't pay enough attention to what was said to him. All the children's names are right it seems Harriet Amelia didn't like Harriet :)

And the name Westerfo.... (not sure of the last bit) is a little unsual I thought Wingfield was bad enough but that has turned out a little easier now.

New Inn Yard pops up everywhere in both my family history and OH's I imagine it was only a little cobbled street but it seems a lot of people went through there over the years :)

[kiterunner]

I'm sure it must be the right marriage. Ideally you would find a will of one of Ann Mary Westerfore / Westerford's relatives that mentioned her under her married name and gave her husband's occupation, residence, and / or names of some of her children, to confirm it was the same family.

I'm not sure whether Amelia and Harriet are the same person or two different people. Harriet doesn't have an Amelia in her name on her baptism, does she?

[maggie_4_7]

I don't know why now I think Harriet and Amelia are the same person there is a reason but I've forgotten! :o

I'm sure there was something I saw documentation wise!

[maggie_4_7]

Amelia born in Lancashire again. I thought it was a mistake on the 1851!

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=MDXRG9_260_262-0465&fn=Amelia&ln=Hill&st=r&ssrc=&pid=5692330

and yet

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_194825-00642&fn=Amelia&ln=Horton&st=r&ssrc=&pid=6487992

William Horton - Dyer is her father!

[maggie_4_7]

Found the pallot's entry for William and Ann's marriage

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=5967&iid=Wellsbie-403_jp-pc24034589&fn=Ann&ln=Westerford&st=r&ssrc=&pid=1603910

Transcribed as Westerford but it looks more like Westerforr...

[Merry]

but it looks more like Westerforr

I think the last letter on the Pallot's entry is an E - Westerfore - It's written like a backward 3 (sort of!)

[maggie_4_7]

I'll go with Westerfore then :)