Ann Sage

[kiterunner]

Name - "official" name and what they were known as Ann Sage
Date and place of birth About 1815, Bristol (1851 census states St Philip's Bristol)
Names of parents William Sage and Jane nee Oswald / Oswell
Date and place of baptism - if applicable Not found
Details of each of his or her marriages - if any 20th Feb 1837 St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol, to John Vowles, witnesses Samuel Harwood (parish clerk) and Jane Sage
Occupation(s) - if any Housewife
Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on (if s/he lived in census times!).
1839 - Dundry, Somerset
1841 - Wick, Bishop's Sutton, Somerset
1851 - 29 Browns Row, Bedminster, Somerset
1861 - 29 South Church Street, Cardiff, Glamorgan
Date, place and cause of death 1870 Cardiff, not got cause
Date and place of burial. 5 Jan 1870 St Mary's, Cardiff
Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable None
Memorial inscription - if any Not found

[Merry]

I'm sure we must be related, Kate! I can't imagine a Sage who has lived in Bishop's Sutton not being connected to mine, even if she was born in Bristol. Pity Ann didn't wait until the summer to be married :(

[kiterunner]

The number of times I've wished they'd waited till July to get married, Merry!

Ooh, I've just found the baptisms of some of their children (including my 2xg-grandfather) on the FamilySearch beta site; I already had the children's names etc but hadn't seen the baptisms before.

[kiterunner]

Could possibly be the mother of Martin Sage baptised 25 Dec 1836 at Clifton St Andrew, mother Ann Sage of Hotwell Rd, servant. There is a Martin Cage age 5 at Hotwell Road in 1841 but head of household is a Jane Cade 40 (born out of county) and I haven't found him after that. Not the Martin Sage who died in Suffolk in 1849 as that one was 82.

Edit - now we have the image of that baptism available on ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61685/engl0082d_p-sta-r-3-b-2_m_00040/469695?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dbristolbaptisms%26gsln%3d%253 fage%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26msmng%3d ann*%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1832%26 msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1%26rank %3d1%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dMDsxOTsyMA-61--61-%26uidh%3dvm5%26redir%3dfalse&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

It says Martin, son of, and then baseborn has been added in; parents' names "Martin M &" crossed out, Ann Sage. So it looks likely that his father was Martin M......

[Merry]

To save me looking on the censuses, please would you tell me the forenames of your Ann's children...........:):):)

[kiterunner]

To save me looking on the censuses, please would you tell me the forenames of your Ann's children...........:):):)

Alfred born 1838 Bedminster died 1915 Cardiff
John born 1841 Sutters Wick, Somerset, died 1855 Bedminster
Albert William born 1843 Bedminster, died 1899 Cardiff
Edwin Samuel born 1847 Bedminster died 1885 Cardiff
Amelia Ann born 1849 Bedminster died 1918 Cardiff
Emily born 1852 Bedminster died 1895 Cardiff.

[Merry]

Hmmm....I was hoping she might have used some of the names all over my Sage lines - Joanna, Nathaniel, Aaron, Jonas, Isaac, Arabella and Nehemiah. Perhaps her OH didn't like those names?

I'm tired now but will have a look through my Sage notes tomorrow to see if I have anything useful.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Merry.

Just so I don't forget I have done this and do it all over again - Jane Cade is in Rosemary St, Bristol St Paul, in 1861, age 68, widow, straw bonnet maker, born Bristol, and in 1871 she is at Lenards Court, Broadmead, Bristol, widow, age 79, born Swansea, assuming it is the same person (surname is down as Eade in 1871). But I can't find her in 1851 to check whether Martin Cage is with her. This is all likely a red herring as (a) I don't know whether Martin Sage's mother is my Ann (b) I don't know for certain that Martin Cage is Martin Sage though I should think so and (c) I don't know what connection there is with Jane Cade except that he is in her household in 1841.

Jane Cade died Jan-Mar 1875 Clifton age 81.
Likely marriage: Jane Thomas / William Cade 15 Aug 1819 Swansea.

[Merry]

I keep looking at Joseph Sage who married Frances Hogdon in 1810. Frances would have been about 30-34 according to 1851/61 census ages (he was a lot younger). They both say they were b in St Phillip's and were living there for the censuses (she is listed as Fanny). I can only find the bap for one child, Joseph in 1813. I'm surprised there were apparently no more.

That's not especially helpful, is it!! :D

[Merry]

I've gone through my Sage stuff, but nothing came of that.

Would you like to post the image of the witness sig from the 1837 marriage entry in the hope we can decide the sex of the writer?!! :D

[kiterunner]

Good luck!

[Merry]

I don't think it's James. Looks more like Joane, but I suppose more likely to be Jane. (Of course, I have numerous Joanna Sages in my tree which is probably why it looks like it has an O in it to me!!).

[Merry]

I don't think Alfred was a common name when Ann had her children. There's a James and Ann Sage (He's a coach painter) with a few children inc Alfred 15 in 1841 at Jubilee Place St James Out and St Paul Out, Bristol.

[Merry]

In 1851 James is listed as John! (Bristol St Andrew)

[Merry]

Hmmmm.....James is back to James in 1861.

! think he may have married Ann Meredith in 1817 which would be after your Ann was born. I looked for a bap for an Ann Meredith, dau of Ann, but no luck with that.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Merry. I'll have a look at Merediths on my disks in a little while.

[Merry]

Oooh.....the Alfred who was b to James and Ann about 1825/6 married in 1848, the year before your couple had their daughter, Amelia. Alfred's bride was Amelia Thomas!

[kiterunner]

No Ann Meredith on the baptism disks. :(

[Merry]

Drat!

Some of Ann and James' children were not baptised until their teens, but still no Ann and it seems likely she was born before their marriage anyway.

[kiterunner]

If I'm looking at the right baptism for James' wife, she is Ann Meredith daughter of William and Ann, born 18 Dec 1799, baptised 1 Jan 1800 Bristol St James. You would think she would name a daughter Ann after her mother, wouldn't you? There is a son named William baptised in 1827.

Also James Sage jr has a wife Jane on the censuses but there is a likely marriage for them in 1840 so she isn't the Jane who was the witness in 1837 (if it does say Jane).

[Merry]

Also James Sage jr has a wife Jane on the censuses but there is a likely marriage for them in 1840 so she isn't the Jane who was the witness in 1837 (if it does say Jane).

I knew there was something I'd forgotten to finish! It was the wife of James jr I was looking at when I got distracted by James sr on the 1841 census and I never went back to see when Jane and James jr married. You are right though - too late to be helpful.

I agree that Ann Meredith should have named a daughter Ann. I don't think I saw a bap for the son James, did I?

[kiterunner]

James Sage was baptised 10 May 1818 at Bristol St James.

I've been following the children of James sr and Ann forwards to see whether any of them had a daughter Harriet born in Bristol about 1848 (remember "Harriet Irony" on the 1881 census? She is "cousin" to one of my Ann's daughters though of course she could be related to Ann's husband instead of to Ann). It looks as though Emma married a Charles Williams in Apr 1851 and Louisa married a Nathaniel Williams in 1854, and I think Charles and Nathaniel were brothers, but I haven't found any of them in 1861 yet to check. But I haven't figured out what happened to Ellen yet.

[Merry]

Harriet Irony?? I did find a post where you mentioned her on GR in 2006!

I can't say I remember her! I just played with fmp trying to find single women called Harriet in 1871/91, but for some reason every one I found was in Scotland, so I'm clearly doing something wrong!! lol

[Merry]

whether any of them had a daughter Harriet born in Bristol about 1848

Erm, she was 48 in 1881!!

[kiterunner]

Oops, sorry. Well, forget her, then, she's too old to be a granddaughter of James and Ann.

[Merry]

It's ironic that you have such a great lead as a cousin in the house, but 8 years later (or more) she is still a mystery!!

I've worked out that fmp have some censuses with unmarried people listed as unmarried and some where they are recorded as single instead! it was much easier when they had the drop-down box for status. (not that discovering this led me to any likely looking Harriets!)

Time to go and wander aimlessly round the kitchen, in the hope that a meal will jump out at me................

[kiterunner]

Well, now that FreeREG have re-introduced the witness search, I searched for John Vowles as a marriage witness and I found a John Vowles making his mark (like my John did on his own marriage record) at the wedding of a John Baber, labourer, and Hester Sage 24 Sep 1837 at Dundry, Somerset. Her father is William Sage, sawyer.

Hester Sage was baptised 17 Oct 1819 at Dundry, parents William and Jane, with father's occupation sawyer.
There is also a Mary Sage baptised 7 Aug 1808 at Bristol St Philip and St Jacob, parents William and Jane of Lamb Street, father's occupation sawyer.

I've looked at the Baber family through the censuses and not found anything to connect them with my Ann Sage and John Vowles yet (though there are some Vowleses near them on the 1851 census, in Bedminster, but not mine as far as I know). Remembering that Alfred was a rare name at the time, they have an Alfred Seal age 6 born Bristol St Thomas visiting them in 1871. Oh, maybe not such a rare name by then?

Surely William and Jane must have had some more children in between Mary and Esther / Hester? And my Ann is supposed to have been born in the parish of St Philip, Bristol, where Mary was baptised.

I know this may turn out to be a red herring but I'm getting so excited!

Can anyone see William and Jane's marriage? The only one I can find so far is William Sage / Jane Hughes 4 Oct 1802 at All Saints, Maidstone, Kent, which seems a bit unlikely but I will look into it.
(Edit - the Kent, Tyler Index to Parish Registers on ancestry has Wm as a bachelor and Jane as a widow which might fit if the ages on the deaths in the next post are approximately correct.)

[kiterunner]

There is a Jane Sage death registered Jul-Sep 1856 Bedminster district (which included Dundry) and her age is 79 on the online GRO death index. There is a possible FS in Bristol on the 1841 census but I can't see her in 1851.
Edit - Jane Sage buried 18 Aug 1856 Portishead, abode Portishead, age 80.

Also a William Sage death Jan-Mar 1839 Bedminster district, age 54.

[kiterunner]

The burial for that William Sage death registration is 7 Mar 1839 at Chew Magna, abode Dundry, age 54.

[kiterunner]

Possible marriage for Mary - William Street OTP and Mary Sage OTP married by banns 18 Mar 1832 Dundry, wits Geo Taylor and Wm Sage.

[kiterunner]

Another marriage at Dundry which could be connected:

William Sage jun OTP bach and Susanna Perry OTP sp married by banns 9 Jul 1820, wits Elizabeth Perry and Geo Taylor.

And there is an Ann Sage marrying a John Light there 26 Mar 1831, so I hope she isn't a daughter of William and Jane! Witnesses for that one are Geo Taylor (again) and Lydia Fear (I think that's what it says.)

[kiterunner]

1851 census
Dundry
William Street Head Mar 42 Excavater Somerset Berrow
Mary Street Wife Mar 42 Do Wife Bristol St Philip's
Willm Street Son Un 16 Do Somerset Dundry
Jane Street Daugr Un 13 Living at home Do Dundry
Sarah Street Do 11 Do Do Dundry
John Street Son 4 Do Bristol St Philip's
Peter Street Son 2 living at home Monmouth Chepstow

[kiterunner]

My John Vowles and Ann Sage's eldest son, Alfred, was baptised at Dundry 27 Jan 1839 and their abode is Dundry on the baptism record. I did have that info although I hadn't posted it as a residence in post #1 of this thread - I must have found it since we did TO3G.

There is a John and Ann Light couple just after William and Mary Street on the 1841 census (in Dundry), but if they are the couple who married in 1831, Ann age 45 seems to be too old to be a daughter of William and Jane Sage - that is, if the William who was Jane's husband is the one who died in 1839 age 54. Maybe she is William's sister? Meaning my Ann could still be William and Jane's daughter.

[kiterunner]

William Sage jr and Susanna had the following children baptised in Bristol:
William 19 Jul 1821
Rebecca 10 Aug 1823
Henry Francis 17 Jun 1827
Joseph Ash 7 Jun 1829
Ann Maria 16 Jan 1831

Trying to find them in 1841 but no luck yet.

In the 1830 poll book for St Philip and St Jacob, Bristol, William Sage jun is a grocer, address Upper Easton.

Edit - maybe leave them for now as I don't really know whether they are part of William and Jane's family anyway.

[kiterunner]

According to the GRO online birth index, Alfred Seal born 1864 Bedminster was illegitimate (it has a dash for MMN.) So if he is the same one as the 1871 visitor, not much help.

[kiterunner]

This must be the Jane Sage who died in 1856, on the 1851 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/SOMHO107_1946_1946-0202/7543805?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
She is unmarried, so not the Jane who was married to William Sage. So I need to have another look for that Jane's death.

[kiterunner]

Here are some more children of William Sage, sawyer, and Jane, baptised at Dundry:
Elizabeth Sage 7 Jul 1822
James Sage 23 Jan 1825
Samuel Sampson Sage 11 Oct 1835 age 8

[kiterunner]

Starting with Samuel, he married a Caroline Hemmings in 1848 in Chepstow, and in 1851 and 1871 they are using the surname Griffin or Griffen, but in 1861 they are Sage. So I wonder where the name Griffin came from? But will have to look at that later or tomorrow.

[kiterunner]

Still not found anything to confirm that my Ann Sage is the daughter of William and Jane.

[kiterunner]

There is a William Sampson Sage tried at Somerset Summer Assizes 1833 for robbery, found not guilty. Given that William and Jane had a son Samuel Sampson Sage (aka Griffin) baptised in 1835 (age 8), I wonder whether this is the same William, or possibly a son of his? The Criminal Registers on ancestry don't show William Sampson Sage's age.

[kiterunner]

Okay, William Sampson Sage married Harriet Nurse 8 Feb 1835 at St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol, and a William Sampson Sage was buried 27 Sep 1835 at Chew Magna, age 24, abode Dundry.

Now wondering whether William Sampson Sage and Harriet Nurse could have had a daughter Harriet who could be my "Harriet Irony"?

[Merry]

There's a Harriet Sage appearing on various censuses, born within a year or so of Harriet Irony who remains unmarried until her death in 1905. I was doing well with her until I realised she is on the 1881 census as well as the others (originally I thought she wasn't on the 1881, I think because I didn't have the age range quite wide enough to capture all the entries). Her parents were George Sage and Elizabeth Notting. George b about 1813 in Bristol. As this wasn't a name you had for the children of Wm and Jane I decided the fact that she was on the 1881 census in Bristol meant she wasn't Harriet Irony after all!

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Merry. There must be more children of William and Jane than the ones who I have found, though, mustn't there? I have Mary 1808 and then Hester / Esther 1819. Hopefully Ann and William Sampson fit in the gap but probably a few more?

Just found William and Jane's marriage on a website of Sage transcriptions - William Sage married Jane Oswell 27 Oct 1806 at St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol.

[Merry]

Good point.

Here's what I found on the Harriet b abt 1834 died 1905:

No bap found.

1841 census surname Laye (correction not yet done), Cannon St, St James, Bristol

George 30 farrier
Eliza 25/26
George 9
Harriet 7
Mary 2

Mary's birth reg gives mmn Notting. All Yes for county.

1851 census surname Lage (correction not yet done), 3 Alfred Parade, St James, Bristol

George 37 b Clifton
Selina 36 b North Nibley Glouc
George 18 b St James Bristol
Harriet 16 b ditto
Mary A 12 b St Augustine's Bristol
Edward 3 b St James, Bristol
James 1 b ditto
Emma Edwards sister in law 21 says married but prob not?? b North Nibley

George married Selina Edwards in 1847, so opportunity to discover his father's name.

Most likely death for Eliza 1842 Q3 Bristol aged 30.

After that. Harriet appears easily on every census (inc 1881 in Bristol, when I wanted her to be Harriet Irony in Wales!) as long as you search Harri* and 1835+/-2 Whether that are all the same person is another thing, though they are all single. On one occasion (1861?) she says b St Pauls Bristol not St James (1851), the rest just say Bristol. EDIT - but are St James and St Paul both part of one parish?

Deaths Jun 1905
SAGE Harriet 69 Bristol 6a 53

No will.

Another potential spanner in the works is that there is also this birth:

SAGE, HARRIETT mmn DAVIS
GRO Reference: 1839 S Quarter in THE CLIFTON UNION
Volume 11 Page 235

and that Harriet is also the dau of a George!

Her family are here (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/GLSHO107_374_376-0084/2146765?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dRAw2692%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1841%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3d35%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dame lia%26gsfn_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1837%26msbdy_x%3d1%26ms bdp%3d2%26gskw%3dbristol%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%2 6cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d67 2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults) in 1841 (surname not yet corrected) and here (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/GLSHO107_1954_1954-1067?pid=7583802&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DRAw2688%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1851%26g ss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26 gsfn%3Dharr*%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dsage%26gsln_x%3 D1%26msbdy%3D1839%26msbdy_x%3D1%26msbdp%3D2%26gskw %3Dbristol%26gskw_x%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26cat bucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3D672%26pcat%3D35% 26fh%3D0%26h%3D7583802%26recoff%3D10%252011%26ml_r pos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=RAw2688&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1851.

[kiterunner]

Wow, thanks for all that, Merry. The Harriett who is in Bristol in 1881 is a Forewoman at Cocoa Factory, whereas "Harriet Irony" is down as a Dressmaker.

[Merry]

Yes, quite!

[kiterunner]

There is an Edward Sage, son of Ann Sage, singlewoman, abode Dundry, baptised at Dundry 11 Oct 1835 and buried there 13 Nov 1835. Doesn't really help except it shows there was a single woman called Ann Sage living in Dundry at that time.

[kiterunner]

With ref to posts #11 and #12, I have viewed the Bishop's Transcripts entry of the marriage record at a Family History Centre, and the witness's name is definitely Jane Sage.

[kiterunner]

I have a DNA match on ancestry, estimated relationship 4th - 6th cousin, with someone whose 2xg-grandmother is shown as Sarah Ann Sage born 1858 Guisborough, Yorkshire. They don't have her parents in their tree, but I have her in the Sage tree that I put together in the hope of finding a link to my Ann Sage - she (Sarah Ann) was the daughter of Samuel Sampson Sage born about 1827 in Dundry, one of the sons of William and Jane. If Ann Sage was Samuel's sister, the DNA match would be my fifth cousin. But then if Ann was Samuel's first cousin, the match would be my sixth cousin, so I suppose it isn't proven by this.

Dundry and Bedminster come up quite a bit among the shared matches with this person, so I'm going to dig around a bit and see if I can figure it out. If only the surname and birthplace searches in ancestry's DNA matches worked properly.

[kiterunner]

Several of the shared matches with the person mentioned in post #49 are descended from Moses Yeates and Ann Parfitt who married 1 Jan 1815 at Long Ashton, Moses being the son of John Yeates and Sarah Paiton or Paton, and Ann being the daughter of Tobias Parfitt and Elizabeth Lockyer. If I can just find a connection between one of these people and the Sage or Oswell / Oswald family now!

[kiterunner]

Not connected with the DNA matches, but I found this 1841 census entry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/WILHO107_1171_1171-0337?pid=11261145&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DdNx5249%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1841%26g sfn%3Dpet*%26gsln%3Dgr*f*n%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln_x%3 D1%26cp%3D0%26msbdy%3D1786%26msbdy_x%3D1%26msbdp%3 D5%26msrdy_x%3D1%26msrpn__ftp%3Dwiltshire,%2520eng land,%2520united%2520kingdom%26msrpn__ftp_x%3D1%26 msrpn%3D5290%26msrpn_x%3D1%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26 redir%3Dfalse%26uidh%3Dvm5%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D11261145%26recoff%3D% 26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx5249&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

Brick Yard, Chippenham, Wiltshire
Peter Griffen 45 Excavator N
Jane Do 50 N
Sarah Sage 20 N
Samuel Do 14 N
John Slush 40 Excavator S.

and then in 1851, they are the household before the Street family in Dundry, Somerset, with Mary Street being a married daughter of William and Jane Sage:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/SOMHO107_1945_1946-0500/7539858?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Peter Griffin Head Mar 57 Labourer on the Waterworks Devon Columpton
Jane Griffin Wife Mar 61 Do Wife Somerset Long Ashton
Henry Langdon Lodger Widower 36 Labourer Devon Exminster.

[kiterunner]

Starting with Samuel, he married a Caroline Hemmings in 1848 in Chepstow, and in 1851 and 1871 they are using the surname Griffin or Griffen, but in 1861 they are Sage. So I wonder where the name Griffin came from? But will have to look at that later or tomorrow.

"Later" turned out to be a long time later, but at last I know the answer to that one!

[kiterunner]

A new DNA match appeared at the weekend near the top of the estimated 4th cousins, who is descended from Mary Sage, another daughter of William and Jane, so I think there is enough evidence now to put William and Jane into my tree as Ann's parents. At last!

[kiterunner]

And other DNA matches suggest that Ann was related to a James Sage born about 1749, maybe in Shepton Mallet, who was transported to the US in 1773.