Isabella Chalmers MMFFM ahnentafel 57.

[Olde Crone]

Updated with new information in greenAlmost a complete mystery. Never seen anywhere except on son's marriage cert.


Name - "official" name and what they were known as
Isabella Chalmers (or maybe Chambers)
Chalmers is incorrect - her maiden name is ELDER

Date and place of birth
Not known but before 1822, as first (?) child born 1834Aberdeen
About 1816, Grange, Banffshire.

Names of parents
Not known
(From her death certificate, so may not be accurate) John Elder and Isabella Skinner.

Date and place of baptism - if applicable
Not known
Not found

Details of each of his or her marriages - if any
16 December 1848, Grange, Banff, after banns, John Simpson


Occupation(s) - if any
Not known

Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on (if s/he lived in census times!).
1832 Gives birth to son Alexander Bonnyman in Keith, Banff
1840 Gives birth to son William Brown in Grange, Banff
1843 Gives birth to son John Elder or Simpson
1845 Gives birth to Isobel Simpson
1848 Marries John Simpson
1849 Gives birth to George Simpson
1853 Gives birth to James simpson
1854 Gives birth to Margaret Simpson
Spends remainder of life in Grange, Banff, as far as I can tell.


Date, place and cause of death
17 May 1899 Balnamoonhill, Grange, Banff, heart disease, bronchitis, aged 83

Date and place of burial
17 May 1892 (incorrect transcription) Grange Kirkyard

Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable
Not known

Memorial inscription - if any
Isabella Elder, the wife of John Simpson, the mother of William Brown, the parents of Margaret Simpson, aged 83. Headstone ref G279

On the marriage certificate of her son Alexander Bonnyman in 1868 she is described as "Isabella Simpson nee Chalmers". In 1861, Alexander was lodging with a CHAMBERS family in Aberdeen - Chalmers mistranscribed or vice versa?EDIT - It now seems that Chalmers was a mistake and that Alexander assumed that was his mother's maiden name, as Walter Chalmers his uncle brought him up.

(Note to self: There are Valuation Rolls for Balnamoon from the late 1860 to early 1900s.)

[kiterunner]

Have you got a birth / baptism record for her son? And have you found the son on the 1841 and / or 1851 censuses?

[Mary from Italy]

On the marriage certificate of her son Alexander Bonnyman in 1868 she is described as "Isabella Simpson nee Chalmers". In 1861, Alexander was lodging with a CHAMBERS family in Aberdeen - Chalmers mistranscribed or vice versa?

Walter "Chambers" and family are transcribed as Chalmers in 1851, and Alexander's with them, transcribed as Alexander Romyman, nephew :)

[Mary from Italy]

Walter and Elizabeth are together in 1851, and the oldest child is 9. The only likely candidate for Walter in 1841 appears to be a single man. There are 3 marriages for a Walter Chalmers between 1841 and 1851, but none of them is to a Bonnyman or a Simpson.

[Mary from Italy]

The 1881 census gives Walter's spouse's name as Elizabeth Cowie, but I can't find a marriage for those names, or a Cowie/Bonneyman/Simpson marriage.

[Olde Crone]

Gosh, had almost forgotten about this!

Kate - no, I don't have a baptism for son Alexander Bonnyman, born about 1834-6, Aberdeen.

Mary

Are you thinking that Elizabeth, wife of Walter is really Isabella?

I think I must have picked up the wrong family in 1851 then, as I have Alexander Bonnyman aged 17, a servant with the Milne family in Banff. I felt this was him because Alexander names HIS son, James Milne Bonnyman, and although there is a previous Milne link, it isn't with this particular branch. (1851 -128/0A 006/00 005 Higher Ardoch Banff - head of household William Milne 35 born Keith.

When Alexander Bonnyman dies, his death cert states him to be illegitimate and there is a RCE to this effect, although giving his reputed father's name.

That Cowie surname is vaguely familiar but I don't know how...I will look at my tree to see if it is a discard!

Thankyou both.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

Are you thinking that Elizabeth, wife of Walter is really Isabella?


That was only a passing thought; I also wondered if she might be his wife Elizabeth's sister, so I tried all sorts of permutations just in case. However, as the marriage cert calls her née Chalmers, and Alexander's said to be Walter's nephew in 1851, I thought Isabella was most likely to be Walter's sister. Might be worth looking for Walter's birth on SP. He came from Keith, Banff (like William Milne) according to all but one census if I remember rightly.

I did see an Alexander Bonnyman with the Milne family in 1841, and wondered if he might be yours. However, his birthplace is given as Banff in 1841 and 1851, whereas the Alex living with the Chalmers family in 1851 and 1861 was born in Aberdeen. There's an Isabel Bonnyman, also 10, in the same household wth the Milnes in 1841, and they're both servants (FS = farm servant, I assume). James Milnes jr, presumaby the son of James sr., is also shown as an FS, so I wondered if the Bonnyman children were actually grandchildren of the Milnes (the Scottish 1841, like the English one, doesn't seem to show relationships).

Who was the reputed father? John Bonnyman?

Where is Alex in 1871? If he's the one married to Christina, his occupation (hemp dresser) matches the Alex with the Chalmers family in 1851 and 1861. There's another Alex Bonnyman born in Bellie (partly in Banffshire and partly in Elginshire, apparently), with a wife Anna, who might be the one who was living in Bellie with the Milne family in 1841, but he's 8 years older.

[Olde Crone]

I'm sure you are right that the one with Walter in 1851 is "mine" as I think the occupation clinches it - Alexander is always a flax/hemp worker. But the other one with the Milne family, I am sure must be related.

My Alexander in 1891 says he was born in Keith (where William Milne was born). There are so many conflicitng facts between this 1891 Alexander and the 1881 Alexander that I would have thought they were two different people, except that the address is the same both times, 6 Farquahar Court, St Nicholas, Aberdeen.

Alex did indeed marry Christina McCaskill. He states his father is John Bonnyman on his marriage cert and that his mother is Isabella Chalmers Simpson. On his death cert, she is Isabella Bonnyman. This has been corrected by an RCE to read " illegitimate -reputed father John Bonnyman. Mother Isabella Chalmers later the wife of unknown Simpson". Alex's daughter was informant at his death, RCE made by the Procurator Fiscal.

Alex's son James Milne Bonnyman married Annie Reid Urquhart, who is the grandaughter of Alexander Milne, a farmer/quarrier of Old Machar. So there is a Milne connection for both sides.

A John Bonnyman married a Margaret Falconer (I originally thought these were my 3 x GGPs). They had a son Alexander Bonnyman bapt. 13 August 1840, Old Machar - how very very confusing, especially as they also had a James Smith Bonnyman, and this James Smith name appears as the middle name of one of my mother's brothers!

OC

[Mary from Italy]

I'm sure you are right that the one with Walter in 1851 is "mine" as I think the occupation clinches it - Alexander is always a flax/hemp worker. But the other one with the Milne family, I am sure must be related.


In case you don't have access to Ancestry, his occupation is transcribed as "hax hackiler" in 1851, but I assume that means flax something-or-other.
In 1861 he's a flax dresser.

[Mary from Italy]

Is "Simpson" clearly written on the cert?

Bit of a long shot, but I noticed an Isabel Bonnyman marrying a James Gordon in Banff in 1834.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, Simpson is clear on both the marriage cert and death cert of Alexander.

OC

[Merry]

Is this her?

ISABELLA CHALMERS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: JAMES SIMPSON Family
Marriage: 10 APR 1868 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages: Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.

[Mary from Italy]

Ooh, well done! I see it's on the IGI, yet I could have sworn I'd searched for those names.

[Mary from Italy]

There's a possible death for Isabella in 1868 on SP.

[Olde Crone]

Nah, sorry, it's not her, I got all excited about that one but she died shortly after the marriage in 1868 at age 21..........

OC

[Merry]

Drat! lol

[Olde Crone]

(Mary's post #10).

I found the death of an Isabella Gordon, other names Bonnyman, aged 92 in Grange, Banff in 1903.

I wonder though, if she were really Isabella Chalmers in 1834, whether she would have been allowed to marry as Bonnyman. I get the feeling the Scottish kirk would have been very sniffy about her pretending to be a married woman.

Oh, DURRRH! Can't be her as Isabella Chalmers Simpson was dead by 1897 (Alexander's death cert).

OC

[Olde Crone]

Would someone like to hit me very very hard, please.

I kept ignoring this. Over and over again.

Alexander Bonniman born 15 Feb 1832 baptised 14 May 1834 Keith, Banff.

parents John Bonniman and Isobel Elder.

I ignored it because I thought it must be the OTHER Alex Bonnyman, the one who is a FS with the Milne family. Mine, after all, is Isabella Chalmers....,

BUT lookathis:

Marriage

Isobel Elder to John Simpson 16 December 1848 Grange Banff.

It has to be her....doesn't it?

OC

[Merry]

*feels week* ;(

[kiterunner]

Ooh, looks promising.

[Mary from Italy]

* slap *

[Olde Crone]

So.......Alexander was brought up by his uncle Walter Chalmers and therefore ASSUMED that his mother's name was also Chalmers, because you would, wouldn't you, unless you were told any different.

Small problem...I can't connect Chalmers/Chambers/Elder. I have a few credits left on SP so off to see if I can spy Isabella Elder or Simpson in 41, 51 etc.

(It has to be said that Alexander Bonniman is unusually thick, even for one of MY ancestors. He can't make up his mind how old he is, where he was born, who his parents were and who his children were...he has a daughter Margaret who was born three years before his marriage, so possibly his wife's child, but no sign of her being born under either name. None of his children reflect any naming patterns, but nevertheless have fanciful names...)

OC

[Mary from Italy]

I just had a quick look at SP, and I'm getting 2 hits for Chalmers-Elder marriages between 1820 and 1830. However, the Chalmers isn't Is* or Walter.

[Mary from Italy]

In 1851 there's an Isabel and John Simpson living in Grange, Banffshire. They have two children (John 8 and George 11 months), and Isabel's son William Brown, 10, is also living with them. Isabel is born in Grange c 1815.

[Mary from Italy]

William's birth from the IGI (extracted):

WILLIAM BROWN OR ELDER
Male

Event(s):
Birth: 12 DEC 1840
Christening: 25 JUL 1841 Marnoch, Banff, Scotland

Parents:
Father: WILLIAM BROWN
Mother: ISOBEL ELDER

[Mary from Italy]

In 1861, Isabel and John Simpson have an extra child, and William Brown's living with his father.

[Olde Crone]

Oooh, well done and thankyou Mary - I'm still shuffling around trying to find my password for SP..........

OC

[Mary from Italy]

In 1841, that Isobel's in Marnoch with a 6-month old boy "N Ve", presumably William Brown, and a load of other people, including an Isobel Elder aged 50.

[Mary from Italy]

Possible birth for Isabel (IGI, submitted):

ISABEL ELDER
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 14 NOV 1812 Grange, Banff, Scotland
Parents:
Father: WILLIAM ELDER
Mother: ISABEL MORRISON

[Mary from Italy]

I can follow Isabella through the censuses till 1891, and there's one death for an Is* Simpson, other names Elder, on SP between 1891 and 1897.

[Olde Crone]

The submitted birth for Isabella is a bit of a worry, as I went to Grange via hugh Wallis and there are other children of William Elder and Isabel Morrison baptised around that time (extracted) but not an Isabella.

I will see if I can work out which is her death cert. I didn't have much luck last time but of course I was looking for other names Chalmers, not Elder.....

OC

[Merry]

I just had a quick look at SP, and I'm getting 2 hits for Chalmers-Elder marriages between 1820 and 1830. However, the Chalmers isn't Is* or Walter.

Groom's Name: Andrew Elder
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Catharine Chalmers
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 25 Jun 1827
Marriage Place: Saint Cuthberts,Edinburgh,Midlothian,Scotland
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: David Chalmers
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M11989-6
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 1066764
Reference Number:
Collection: Scotland Marriages, 1561 -1910



There are two entries for the above, 25th June and 5th July same year. Don't know if both would be on SP as well? Couldn't see any more in that ten year period.

[Olde Crone]

Mary

I haven't downloaded the death you found because the age is well out (69, should be more like 80) and Dumfries was a funny place for her to die!

Merry

Thankyou for that, again a funny area but I shall investigate!

OC

[Mary from Italy]

There's an Is* Simpson, other names Elder, b. 1816, who died in Grange in 1899; however, that doesn't fit the information on Alexander's death certificate. Might be worth checking it out to see if you can eliminate this one; if it's the Isabel/la I found on the censuses, she was a crofter at Balnamoon Hill, and living with her son James Simpson in 1891.

[Olde Crone]

Mary

That sounds quite promising, better than a 69 year old dying in Dumfries.

As it was Alexander's daughter (?) who reported his death and then changed her mind about his parents' names, then she wouldn't really know if his mother was alive or not, so I think I'm going for the one you've found, thankyou!

OC

[Olde Crone]

Oooh, a bit unexpected....

Isabella Simpson 83, widow of John Simpson a crofter, May 17th 1899, 8.30 pm at Balnamoonhill, Grange, of heart disease, several years, bronchitis 10 days, certified, son James present at death.

Parents John Elder and Isabella SKINNER.

It's looking more and more likely that Alexander just THOUGHT his mother's name was Chalmers, because Walter's was.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

Ooh, interesting. So that's definitely the Isabella I found in the censuses. Presumably she and Alexander didn't keep in touch, otherwise his wife would have known she was still alive.

I wonder how on earth Walter fits in, though? Maybe Alex was his wife's nephew?

[Olde Crone]

Oh ******! just lost a long post!

I found this

John Elder to Margt CUIE, 24 June 1773, Grange.

CUIE has to be COWIE, surely, so Isabella Elder was related to Elizabeth Cowie, wife of Walter Chalmers.

Looks as if Alex had no contact with his mother. How sad.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

Ah, that looks good.

I was just looking for Isabella's birth; there's an Isobel Elder born in Grange in 1812, mother Isobel. However, the names Skinner and John aren't coming up for that one.

[Mary from Italy]

The IGI has the following baptisms for children of John Elder and Margaret Cowie in Grange (all submitted entries):

Ann 1774, John 1776, Isabel 1778, William 1782, and Elspet 1784.

According to the 1851 census, Elizabeth Chalmers (née Cowie) was born in Aberdeen c1828.

[Olde Crone]

Mary

Of course there's always the possibility that Isabella Simpson's son James didn't know who HER parents were, either!

Oh joy.

I suppose I ought to have the title of my post altered, but on the other hand, anyone following the Bonnyman trail will find Isabella Chalmers Simpson before they ever find Isabella Elder....

OC

[Mary from Italy]

Just in case any of the names are relevant, these are the people who were in the same household as Isobel Elder in Marnoch 1841 (all born in Banffshire):

Well Duncan, 70, ag lab
Ann Geddes, 70
Rose Gordon, 65, hawker
Isobel Elder, 50, servant
Isobel Elder, 25
N Ve, 6 m.
Alex Ewers, 45, farmer
Elspet Ewers, 47
Jane Andelson, 17, FS

[Olde Crone]

Thankyou Mary.

OC