View Full Version : William Martin (FFMFF)
Name - "official" name and what they were known as
William Martin
Date and place of birth
abt 1816, Sussex, possibly Brighthelmstone (Brighton),possibly not
Names of parents
not known
Date and place of baptism - if applicable
not known
Details of each of his or her marriages - if any
abt 1838, married to Elizabeth Berwick, not known where.
Occupation(s) - if any
1841 - carpenter (census and son's birth cert)
Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on (if s/he lived in census times!).
1841 - Hanover St, Brighton, with wife Elizabeth, sons William and Robert.
Date, place and cause of death
before 1851 in Brighton.
Date and place of burial.
not known
Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable
none known
Memorial inscription - if any
Over a year and a half has passed and I have still not been able to locate a marriage for William Martin and Elizabeth Berwick, but recently I joined the Sussex Family History Group.
Access to their on-line database has shown me that a familysearch.org entry for William Martin, baptised in BUXTED, Sussex on 14 Jul 1839, is my William Martin junior.
Father William Martin, carpenter, abode Brighton. So one step closer. I think Elizabeth Berwick's father Robert and his siblings were baptised in Buxted, while Elizabeth was baptised at Rotherfield.
I still need to find the marriage to find out who William's parents were and to confirm that Elizabeth's parents were Robert and Elizabeth Berwick.
In another year and a half maybe I will find out.
Diane
kiterunner
16-08-12, 15:55
If they got married before the start of civil registration, the marriage probably won't tell you who their parents were anyway.
If they got married before the start of civil registration, the marriage probably won't tell you who their parents were anyway.
Don't say that !! I am hopeful they got married between Sep 1837 and Sep 1839.
If not, then maybe the witnesses might give some clues.
I am currently proceeding on an assumption, building a temporary tree, with Robert Berwick of Buxted as the father-in-law of William Martin, just seeing where the census entries etc, might take me. Not sure where I am going on the Martin side yet.
ElizabethHerts
17-08-12, 07:54
Diane, have you seen this?
http://www.theweald.org/area.asp?Pid=P81.1.1&t=1&y=11&p=0
Elizabeth Berwick Birth 1806 Richard Berwick Mary Berwick [Manser] Rotherfield Parish Registers
ElizabethHerts
17-08-12, 08:01
Is this the one you were thinking of?
http://www.theweald.org/area.asp?Pid=P81.1.1&t=2&y=11&p=0
Elizabeth Berwick Christening 4th Mar 1810 St. Denys Church Robert Berwick, farmer Elizabeth Berwick [Taylor] Rotherfield Parish Registers
ElizabethHerts
17-08-12, 08:08
To complicate matters, there is another couple called William and Elizabeth Martin:
Samuel Martin Birth 10th Jan 1847 William Martin Elizabeth Martin [Cook] Rotherfield Parish Registers
http://www.theweald.org/area.asp?PId=P81.1.1&t=1&y=12&p=6
Hi Elizabeth,
I think there are three Elizabeth Berwicks born in the early 1800s, all cousins !
1. The daughter of Robert and Elizabeth, baptised at Rotherfield, in 1809. Married before 1841 census.
2. The daughter of RIchard and Mary baptised at Buxted in 1806. I think she is at Tarring Neville in 1841 and later married John Geering and lived in Sompting. Had illegit daughter Ellen Berwick at Mayfield in 1838
3. The daughter of William and Susanna baptised in 1806. In 1841 is a servant to Rosa Place in Shere Surrey, remained with Rosa Place until 1881 census. In 1881 census Mary Anne Berwick slightly younger, so I assume her sister, is also in the household.
Robert, Richard and William were all brothers, sons of Thomas Berwick.
Don't confuse me with more Martins - I have not even started with them yet. I am just waiting to see if the Berwicks get tangled up with my husbands TANNERs etc who also lived in Buxted - now that would tangle up our family trees. So far, his LANGLEYS and my COLLISs lived in the same small Berkshire town, but stayed untangled.
What happened to Elizabeth after William's death?
What happened to Elizabeth after William's death?
Elizabeth and her sons Robert and James appear in the 1851 census in the slightly less affulent address of 10 Kew St Brighton, but thereafter I don't know.
By 1861 Robert was married and living in Islington with his wife and son. James I am unsure about.
Either she remarried -
Marriages Sep 1854
Martin Elizabeth Steyning 2b 352
Marriages Dec 1855
MARTIN Elizabeth Brighton 2b 384
or died
Deaths Mar 1854
Martin Elizabeth Brighton 2b 127
Deaths Dec 1854
Martin Elizabeth Brighton 2b 105
Deaths Jun 1856
Martin Elizabeth Brighton 2b 109
Deaths Sep 1858
Martin Elizabeth Brighton 2b 101
I haven't had much luck finding out, but will give it another try
Di
Seven years on and I have made little progress on details about William Martin.
I thought the new GRO indexes with ages might help me find his death records, but not so far.
However, a death index entry for a 3 year old William Martin, did prove to be his son William Martin. William Martin senior registered the death of the 3 and half year old "child of a carpenter" at 31 Hanover St, the same address as the birth certificates of other sons Robert and James and the same address as the 1841 census entry for the family.
So William Martin senior was alive on 8th November 1842 when he registered his son's death. In 1841 he is recorded as 25, so between 25 and 30.
I compared all the FreeBMD and GRO William Martin deaths in Brighton between 1842 and 1851, and then matched them up with burials - the most likely one was a 37 year old who died in March 1847 - but I am fairly sure its not mine. The death certificate says he was a labourer who died of phthisis and the death was registered by an unrelated Ruth Booker.
So, either one of the ages at death is not correctly transcribed/recorded or William Martin died away from his home in Brighton and is registered in another district. Going to check out who Ruth Booker might be, just in case.
No evidence of a marriage between William Martin and Elizabeth Berwick has been found either.
It looks like they had another son:
MARTIN,JOSEPH mmn BERWICK
GRO Reference: 1844 D Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 272
There are three possible death registrations before 1851. The one in 1850 says the age is 1 - which could mean hours, days, weeks, months or a year, but whichever, isn't going to be yours. However, either of the other two registrations in Q1 1845 could fit if the age isn't years, but months weeks hours etc:
MARTIN, JOSEPH aged 3
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 241
MARTIN, JOSEPH aged 11
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 237
Thank you Merry, I had not thought to look for another child - until the GRO indexes came along it was impossible to even consider.
I think the first death might be the right Joseph - Sussex Family History Group burial records for St Nicholas says the child was "inf" (so maybe 3 months?) buried 26 Feb 1845, of Kew St - and Kew St is where Elizabeth, Robert and James lived in the 1851 census !
I will get the death cert to find out if William registered the death. Seems likely, given the time frame.
There's no baptisms in Brighton, or any where in Sussex, either, for Robert, James or Joseph.
Thank you Merry. Every little clue helps.
I now have baby Joseph Martin's 1845 death certificate. And he is the son of William and Elizabeth of 19 Kew St Brighton.
Joseph died 21 Feb 1845 aged 3 months of "weakness". He is described as "son of William Martin, carpenter", so I assume that his father William was still alive at that time. His mother Elizabeth registered the death.
None of the remaining William Martin deaths or burials in Brighton (from freeBMD, GRO Indexes or Sussex FH database) match with what I know (or think I know).
None of the FreeBMD or SussexFH burial records for the rest of Sussex seem to match either, so I guess I am going to be looking much further afield.
Do you have the burial for this one?
MARTIN, WILLIAM aged 29
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 244
I realise in theory he's too young, but if he was younger than Elizabeth his age might have been bumped up for the 1841 census.
Hi Merry
I looked closely at that death, too. Given William's age in 1841 was rounded to 25, I looked at every death, 1845-1851 in Sussex for a William Martin aged 29-40 and there are not that many.
However, it now seems they may have stayed in Kew St from 1845 to 1851, so the Marshall Row abode in the burials seems to rule it out. Also if he was only 29, he would have been only 18-9 when eldest son William was born, so IF William and Elizabeth did marry, there should have been a licence issued ? Unless, like his son Robert, lied about his age.
So maybe William and Elizabeth lied about everything - as well as their ages, that they married, registering their sons with the MARTIN surname and mothers maiden name BERWICK, that she was a widow in 1851. If that is the case, then the only thing they did not lie about was that they lived in the same house for the 1841 census, Roberts birth, James birth and William Juniors death, and the same street for Joseph's death and 1851 census, and William's occupation as carpenter.
The 1848 Brighton Registration for William Martin age 67, could be William's father. There is an 1816 baptism for William Martin, son of William Martin (Carpenter) and Jane, of Pimlico. The 1848 burial record says of Pimlico. I need to see if I can find him in the 1841 census.
Maybe also, William was not actually dead, maybe I should be looking further afield to see if he was a convict.
I think 'lied about everything' sounds a bit drastic! If they didn't actually marry, for whatever reason, all the lies that come after that would be pretty normal ones!
I'm not sure why you would think they would have had a marriage licence if William was under age? They wouldn't have needed one in order to marry - in normal circumstances the vicar would just have needed the word of a parent for consent.
Now, Marshall Row - I looked to see if there were any clues in this street. In 1841 and 1851 we have the same couple living there:
1841
James Martin 60 Ag Lab Yes
Mary Martin 55 Yes
Sarah Martin 21 Yes
1851
James Martin head married 68 labourer b Wivelsfield, Sussex
Mary Martin wife married 73 b ditto
I'd say there's some chance the William Martin who died in 1849 aged 29 is connected with this couple and may be their son (but not necessarily your William!). There's no obvious bap for Sarah (presuming she is their daughter, which of course she may not be), but we don't know where in Sussex she was born.
EDIT: The family next door to James and Mary in 1851 are William and Sarah Skinner (aged 30 b Brighton). I wondered if this was the Sarah Martin who appears with James and Mary in 1841. I looked briefly for a marriage 1841-1851 on FreeBMD and found nothing, but when I checked out the registration of their dau, Emily aged 1 in 1851 ....surprise, surprise!
SKINNER, EMILY mmn MARTIN
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in BRIGHTHELMSTON Volume 07 Page 309
Looking further, they married in Whitechapel in London:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_194825-00671/6487527?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dJgY549%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmamarriages%26s o%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dsarah%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmartin%26gsln_x %3d1%26mssng%3dwil*%26mssng_x%3d1%26mssns%3dskinne r%26mssns_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3 drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Sarah says her father is James, labourer.
I think the Skinner's may have had two children before their marriage (not Betsy - after her) both registered as Skinner with mmn Martin, but more research would be needed to be more certain there isn't another couple with the same surnames. Both those children seem to have died by 1851. I can't be sure that Betsy (or maybe Elizabeth/Eliza etc) was registered at all (assuming she was registered as a Martin, but we don't know what name she might have started life with!).
The next issue is that I can't find an obvious bap for Sarah in or near Brighton with father James (I didn't include mother's forename as we don't know when James married Mary). Of course I also can't find a bap for James and Mary's son (if that's who William who died in 1849 was) either!
None of the above is of much consequence if it's not the right William, but I suppose gradually untangling different Williams might help in the long run!
I've looked at Sarah Skinner on each census until her death (she remarried to Stephen John Smith in 1857 which didn't help much! lol) in case she had any useful relatives such as cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews etc living with her, but other than Stephen, Stephen's children from his previous marriage and her dau, Emily, she never had anyone else in the household.
I didn't see this before in the non-conformist records:
Sarah Martin born 15 Mar 1820 Baptism 23 Apr 1820 Brighton, Sussex, England parents James and Mary
The image doesn't give an occupation for James. I didn't find any other baptisms for children of James and Mary in this database.
I think James Martin died Q4 1855 aged 74.
Mary possibly Q3 1853 aged 76.
Just over a month ago I stood on the corner of Marshall Row in Brighton eating a pasty I bought in Greggs Bakery on the corner! It's about 50m from the supermarket where my son does his grocery shop now he's at Sussex Uni!
It's about five minutes walk from the two other addresses for your William Martin and family in Brighton.
I don't know where I'm going with this, but there is a marriage of a William Martin, father James Martin, to a Sarah Mann, father James Mann on 24 Sep 1838 at St Nicholas, Brighton.
I thought this could be William the possible son of James and Mary Martin who died in 1849. I hoped I could find him with Sarah in 1841 and thereby eliminate him from our search for the correct William.
Not that straightforward! lol
Having got nowhere looking for possible children for this William and Sarah, I gave up with that and tried some other combinations. I found a Sarah Martin, widow, father James Mann labourer, marrying at St Giles without Cripplegate in the city of London on 5th Feb 1846. The groom was bachelor, Josiah Watson a milkman, son of Josiah Watson, also a milkman.
Of course if this was the same Sarah who married Wm Martin and he was the one who died in 1849 then she was not yet a widow, but I can't stop myself from wondering if the William she was married to was the one potentially living with Elizabeth Berwick.
Anyway, I thought it might be easy to find Josiah and Sarah and probably eliminate them.....No such luck!
Well the mystery thickens!
I saw there were two likely Sarah Mann baptisms with father James in Sussex. One in Pulborough (25 Aug 1816) and the other in Hastings (12 Oct 1814).
I searched for Sarah Watson b Hastings in 1851 - nothing. Sarah Watson b Pulborough - Yes, and her husband is a dairyman from Water Stratford in Buckinghamshire aged 30. The 1841 census of Water Stratford shows a family headed by Josiah Watson, so that all ties together, EXCEPT Sarah's husband isn't called Josiah - he's called William Watson!!
A William Watson son of Josiah 'also' married at St Giles without Cripplegate in 1852 to Maria Streeter. He said he was a bachelor, but is he the same person who married Sarah Mann/Martin?
EDIT: Oooh! in 1851 there are two William Watson's almost the same age - the dairyman married to Sarah and the other one unmarried and a milk carrier. *feels headache coming on* lol
Anyway, it seems likely Sarah Mann from Pulborough married one of the William Martin's in Brighton and then, saying she was a widow (was she?), remarried in London. Was she the dau in law of James and Mary Martin of Marshall Row? and was it James and Mary's son who died in 1849? When did he and Sarah split up and was her William the partner of Elizabeth Berwick?
I think this Sarah is Sarah Mann (line 2):
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/MDXHO107_1526_1527-0229?pid=2922170&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3Duki1851%26indiv%3Dtry%26h%3D2922170&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true
and this is her second marriage (goodness knows if the man is the same person!!):
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31281_a101675-00111/1439197?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dJgY757%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmamarriages%26s o%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dsarah%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmartin%26gsln_x %3d1%26msfng%3djames%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns%3dmann% 26msfns_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3dr stp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Here's the 'other' William who also says he's the son of Josiah:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31281_a101678-00111/691923?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dJgY891%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmamarriages%26s o%3d2%26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dwilliam%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dwatson%26gsln _x%3d1%26msfng%3djosiah%26msfng_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%2 6cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%2 6uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
No sign of any of them after 1851!
PR transcriptions of Water Stratford:
These look like the two brothers whose marriages I posted in the previous post. The one who married Sarah was the right age to fit with the bap of Josiah, so maybe he just preferred the name William for the census?!! lol I think it must have been the younger brother who married Maria Streeter.
Bap 27 Aug 1820 Watson, Josiah father Josiah Labourer mother Rebecca
bap 19 Jun 1825 Watson, William father Josiah Labourer mother Rebecca
[QUOTE=Merry;342841]I think 'lied about everything' sounds a bit drastic! If they didn't actually marry, for whatever reason, all the lies that come after that would be pretty normal ones!
I'm not sure why you would think they would have had a marriage licence if William was under age? They wouldn't have needed one in order to marry - in normal circumstances the vicar would just have needed the word of a parent for consent.]
I don't know why I thought they should have had a licence to marry - maybe I have seen some before for under-age parties ? Never mind, it was just a hope.
I struggle with the idea that maybe they lied and concealed so much about their lives. All my other ancestors were mostly honest in their official record encounters (well, a couple altered their ages in the census, and great-grandmother Eccles was a bigamist).
I don't know where I'm going with this, but there is a marriage of a William Martin, father James Martin, to a Sarah Mann, father James Mann on 24 Sep 1838 at St Nicholas, Brighton.
Thank you Merry for chasing all these Martins while I had a lovely time watching the musical Beautiful, the Carol King story !
These Martins/Manns seem as mysterious as my William and Elizabeth ! They are probably related somehow, as before the late 18th century, Brighthelmston was a very small town.
There is also a John Martin, born about 1800 who married Mary Ann Aiken (or Atkins or Akines, depending) who is a part of the LINN family I am also researching.
He may or may not be part of a set of triplets baptised in 1803.
I have never found very much on the Martins in Brighton and wonder if they were from somewhere else. Although my other families appear to go back more generations in the town.
James Mann, the father of Sarah is still living in Pulborough in 1841. A few pages before him on the 1841 census is a Sarah Martin aged 24 living by herself.
I struggle with the idea that maybe they lied and concealed so much about their lives. All my other ancestors were mostly honest in their official record encounters (well, a couple altered their ages in the census, and great-grandmother Eccles was a bigamist).
Well we don't know that many of these people are the right people! It's just a possible theory.
If you were in the UK I would suggest you enquired about the 1849 death cert at Brighton Reg Office, but only purchased it if he had the right occupation, but I suppose that's not really possible from overseas?
register.office@brighton hove.gov.uk
If you were in the UK I would suggest you enquired about the 1849 death cert at Brighton Reg Office, but only purchased it if he had the right occupation, but I suppose that's not really possible from overseas?
register.office@brighton hove.gov.uk
I can only ask. Could I ask them also to look for the William Martin - Elizabeth Berwick marriage, in case it did not make it to the GRO for some reason ?
Its the only other thing I can think of.
There's a William Duke - Elizabeth Berwick marriage which I wonder if it has been wrongly recorded for some reason. I can seem to find them easily in the 1841 census.
The Sussex Marriage index says William Duke, carpenter, Elizabeth a servant, married 25 Dec 1837 - I think I'd like a look at the register and the witnesses to see if there is an error in this one.
Does the marriage index give the fathers' details or the parish for the wedding?
I couldn't find any Duke /Berwick birth registrations, but there is a death of a William Duke in Steyning district in 1839. I've forgotten his age now, but he was in his 40s I think.
It wouldn't be the first time someone has married under a different surname than you might expect! (ie William Duke, carpenter might actually be William Martin - scuppering my theory completely! lol). I have seen examples where every GRO entry is in one surname but every census record is in another for instance. Sometimes it's to do with copyhold land entitlement, but more often just because somewhere along the line there's been an illegitimate birth and a family has been brought up with the 'wrong' surname (and used in everyday life and on the census) but they use what they see as their lawful surname on more official records! Lots of other variations on this theme too. Obviously they didn't consider family historians at all! lol
Does the marriage index give the fathers' details or the parish for the wedding?
I couldn't find any Duke /Berwick birth registrations, but there is a death of a William Duke in Steyning district in 1839. I've forgotten his age now, but he was in his 40s I think.
No details like father or witnesses, in this case. The parish is Preston, freebmd says registered in Steyning district.
The name Elizabeth Berwick is unusual enough for me to want to investigate. As you can see from an earlier post, there were several Elizabeths related to each other, but at least two of them were still single in the 1841 census.
Between work and meetings this week, I have not had a lot of time to look further, but I will later this week.
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