John Saunders (Week 3 - FFFMF) [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

Merry

12-11-10, 08:16

Here's one to maybe get your teeth into!

Name - "official" name and what they were known as

John Saunders

Date and place of birth

Unknown

Names of parents

Unknown

Date and place of baptism - if applicable

Unknown

Details of each of his or her marriages - if any

Unknown

Occupation(s) - if any

On daughter's marriage cert dated Nov 1854: Coal Merchant

Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK) - and please list which censuses you have or haven't found him/her on (if s/he lived in census times!).

Unknown

Date, place and cause of death

Unknown

Date and place of burial.

Unknown

Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable

Unknown

Memorial inscription - if any

Unknown

I've deliberately not loooked into this today. Probably last tried when the 1841 census became available on Ancestry.

Clues:

His dau (my 2xgg-gm) was Elizabeth Saunders b abt 1831 in Bristol (according to all census records after her marriage)

This is most likely to be her in 1841:

Abedego Matthew 50
Mary Matthew 60
James Duffett 8
George Andrews 8
Samuel Churchill 5
Mary Saunders 10 <<<<<<<<<<possible sister or even twin, or maybe a cousin or not connected at all?!
Elizabeth Saunders 10 <<<<<<<<<<< Mine???

The above people are in Mangotsfield where Elizabeth's future husband was from. There are other possible matches for Elizabeth and obviously possibly quite a few if you consider all the possible spelling variants (which I don't think I have). Abednego Matthew was a school teacher and the children are listed as pupils.

I don't seem to have any record or possible record for Elizabeth in 1851.

kiterunner

12-11-10, 08:53

Who are the witnesses on Elizabeth's marriage cert?

Merry

12-11-10, 10:59

William Sheppard Heath and Mary Ann Lane.

They are a bit odd as Mary Lane was the name of Wm S Heath's wife, but they had been married five years or so by the time my relatives married (obviously I don't known if Mary Ann Lane is actually the same person as Mrs Mary Heath!).

I spent forever researching this couple backwards and sideways etc only to eventually discover in 1851 or 61 (I forget now) Wm was the sexton of St James in Bristol where the marriage of my rellies took place! I guess they may have been serial witnesses (or at least he was).

kiterunner

12-11-10, 14:10

Ooh, I was getting all excited about a John Saunders, coal merchant, 2 Church Row, Weston, listed in the Bath Post Office Directory of 1876-7, but then I realised his full name was John Saunders Baker! I wonder whether there's a connection, though.

Merry

12-11-10, 19:39

Blimey! lol

I reckon he was only an occasional coal merchant and that is putting me off!

I would think someone was paying for those children to be staying in the schoolmaster's house in 1841, suggesting a parent was still around somewhere.......Pity we can't search occs in 1841 :(

Merry

12-11-10, 19:59

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=GLSHO107_1955_1955-0644&fn=Elizabeth&ln=Saunders&st=d&ssrc=&pid=7600478

Can anyone see this family (right at the top of the page) in 1841? I am trying to find out who Marian's late husband was. I'm thinking Stapleton is in Bristol and she has a dau Elizabeth and saying 'no business' suggests they had one when her OH was alive.

Mary from Italy

12-11-10, 20:17

There's a William Sanders, aged 10, in the Stapleton Poor Asylum in 1841; not sure if it's the same William as in 1851, especially as it says born out of county.

Merry

12-11-10, 20:31

Thanks Mary. I've found Wm Henry in 1861 married to Hannah Michael from Abergavenny. The marriage isn't on the pilot site for fathers name though.

Merry

12-11-10, 21:59

Drat - a notice in the Bristol Mercury tells me that Marian died 19th August 1851, but not who she was the widow of.

kiterunner

12-11-10, 22:45

There's a John Saunders will from 1842 listed in the Bristol Wills Index, which I don't remember ever seeing before (the index, I mean, not that entry):
http://www.bristol.gov.uk/ccm/content/Leisure-Culture/records-and-archives/bristol-wills-indices-1781-1858.en
It doesn't give occupations though.

Mary from Italy

12-11-10, 22:50

Drat - a notice in the Bristol Mercury tells me that Marian died 19th August 1851, but not who she was the widow of.

I haven't found an obvious candidate for her in 1841. She was very young to be the mother of those children - I wonder if she was a second wife?

Merry

13-11-10, 07:44

I came across the Bristol Wills index a few months ago whilst looking for some pesky peple called Ariel! At the time I'd not touched this part of my tree for ages, so only looked for a couple of my 'names' - another reason why doing this weekly review is so great!

I think I might ask the local reg office to look at the 1851 death cert and I'll buy it if it says Marion was the widow of John (whatever his occ!), and investigate the will too. (will look harder at the Bristol Mercury in 1842 as well)

I'm not that confident these are the right people though (here what you say, Mary, about Marion's age) and just wish I could find the daughter, Laura Louisa (or whatever that name says) ANYWHERE else! I see there are a lot of Bristol marriages on the pilot site with fathers names, but that isn't helping me with this specific problem.

Merry

13-11-10, 07:59

Mary, I've looked for a post 1837 marriage for Mario/an to a Saunders and can't find anything, so would hope they were married by 1841, but that's not helping find her!

kiterunner

13-11-10, 09:05

There should be an entry for the John Saunders 1842 will in the Index to Death Duties Register on findmypast but I'm not sure how much info it has for an entry of that period.

HarrysMum

13-11-10, 09:18

Merry

13-11-10, 10:57

Gee......you know who your friends are don't you?????

:D:D:D:D

I still haven't got a reply from them to see if I can buy that will......that was ages ago.

I should send them an email asking what they're playing at!

Death Duty Register Entry

Testator: John Saunders
Residence: Bristol
Executors: James Saunders of Brewers Row, Westminster (I think it says Westminster??)
Court: County, Bristol
Register: 1
Folio: 208

So..........I don't know! lol Is there anywhere in Bristol that looks like Westminster? Off to see how many million streets called Brewers Row there are!!

kiterunner

13-11-10, 11:27

There was a Brewers Row in the real Westminster, so presumably the executor lived (or worked) there. Maybe we can find him on the 1841 and / or 1851!

kiterunner

13-11-10, 11:32

Can't see him at Brewers Row in 1851 but I only found the odd numbers so far, and 5 houses uninhabited.

kiterunner

13-11-10, 11:39

Okay, 1841 at Brewers Row, Westminster:
John Saunders 36 Painter J N
William Do 16 Tin Plate Worker Ap Y
Susan Do 14 N
Sarah Do 10 Y
John Do 7 Y
Charlotte Do 3 Y
James Do 26 Painter J N
Lucy Kelly 77 N

Merry

13-11-10, 12:29

Thanks Kate - I've been on child taxi duty! I'll investigate those people......

Mary from Italy

13-11-10, 14:23

just wish I could find the daughter, Laura Louisa (or whatever that name says) ANYWHERE else!

This marriage looks interesting, because there's a Reginald John Nixon living in Stapleton in 1851. Just trying to find them in 1861.

Marriages Jun 1860
EDWARDS Harriet Halifax 9a 613
Morgan William Lewis Halifax 9a 613
NIXON Reginald John [SL]aye Halifax 9a 613
Saunders Laura Louisa Halifax 9a 613

Merry

13-11-10, 14:32

Oooh, well done, thanks very much Mary. Looks as if I must have accidentally searched Gloucestershire and Somerset only!! Good job you looked as I probably wouldn't have tried again!

Mary from Italy

13-11-10, 14:36

This is Laura's death:

Deaths Mar 1914
Nixon Laura L 80 Chorlton 8c 1196

and she's living in Chorlton in 1911 with her two daughters.

Her birthplace is coming up as Bristol on the free search.

Merry

13-11-10, 14:38

Mary, you can stop looking for them! Am I allowed to swear?

Groom's Name: Reginald John Saye Nixon
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Laura Or Lawia Louisa Saunders
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 12 Apr 1860
Marriage Place: Halifax, York, England
Groom's Father's Name: Francis Nixon
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: William Henry Saunders
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M01864-0
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1542265
Reference Number: it 3, p 85, rn 170
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

Mary from Italy

13-11-10, 14:39

Haven't found them the in 1861, but in 1871, Laura (married) and numerous children are living in Ovenden, near Halifax.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=WRYRG10_4415_4418-0550&fn=Laura+Louisa&ln=Nixon&st=d&ssrc=&pid=25841763

Mary from Italy

13-11-10, 14:40

Mary, you can stop looking for them!

Ooh, brilliant!

Merry

13-11-10, 14:41

She has the wrong dad, Mary ;(

Merry

13-11-10, 14:41

Ooh, brilliant!

No it isn't.

Mary from Italy

13-11-10, 14:42

Guess what Reginald's occupation was? :) :)

Mary from Italy

13-11-10, 14:43

No it isn't.

Oops, I got carried away there :)

Still, at least you know you can rule that one out.

Merry

13-11-10, 14:45

lol Mary! Back to square one again. Thanks for your help though (and Kate's)

borobabs

13-11-10, 14:45

Im watching this thread Merry as I have a james Saunders b abt 1800, in tree but dont know birthplace except his daughter Eliza married and lived shropshire and wocestershire

kiterunner

13-11-10, 15:40

Bristol and Avon FHS offer a Burgess Books Service where you can request a lookup, so you could try that:
http://www.bafhs.org.uk/services/bristolburgessindex.htm

Link for terms and conditions:
http://www.bafhs.org.uk/services/services.htm

Merry

13-11-10, 17:57

Gosh Kate - I'm not sure my rellies would be grand enough to appear! Still, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Thank you.

Merry

13-11-10, 18:37

OK starting again; another set of records to play with;

Possible entry for the bap of my 2xg-grm:

Name: Elizabeth Saunders
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 05 Dec 1830
Baptism/Christening Place: St Augustine-the-Less, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Father's Name: John Saunders
Mother's Name: Ann
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01086-8
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1596311
Reference Number: item 4 p 275
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Possible sibling:

Name: Selina Ann Saunders
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 01 Jul 1832
Baptism/Christening Place: St Augustine-the-Less, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Father's Name: John Saunders
Mother's Name: Ann
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01086-8
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1596311
Reference Number: item 5 p 23
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

another one:

Name: John Saunders
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 16 Oct 1825
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Augustine-the-Less, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Father's Name: John Saunders
Mother's Name: Anne
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01086-7
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1596311
Reference Number: item 4 p 128
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

There are others in Bristol, parents John and Ann, but I'm focusing on the ones at the same church for the time being.

For ref, others from the pilot site are:

James - bap 25th Dec 1825 church not showing on record (perhaps unlikely following John's bap 2 months earlier?)
George Augustus - bap 23rd Sept 1827 St. Phillip and St. Jacob's
Mary Ann - bap 8th Feb 1829 St. Phillip and St. Jacob's (could be the other girl in the school in 1841!)

Merry

13-11-10, 18:38

No sign of a marriage or death for Selina Ann after 1837.

kiterunner

13-11-10, 18:44

I checked the Elizabeth Saunders baptisms with fathers called John on the Bristol baptisms CD yesterday, Merry, and the occupation for that one was servant (residence Anchor Lane).

kiterunner

13-11-10, 18:47

... and Selina Ann's father was a master mariner, of Harford Street, Bedminster. Sorry!

borobabs

13-11-10, 18:48

Oh Merry isnt she one of yours Ester Merry Saunders lol

kiterunner

13-11-10, 18:49

John 1825 looks to have the same father as Selina Ann, as he is a seaman (residence Frogmore Street).

kiterunner

13-11-10, 18:54

Oooooh!!!!! *very very excited emoticon*

I have to explain that the way the CD works, you look a name up in the index and it gives you the church and date and parents' names, but then you have to go to the other section which is organised by church and date, to see the occupation and residence. So since I was only looking for Elizabeths yesterday (there are lots and lots of Saunders families), I never saw this:

23rd Sep 1827 St Philip & St Jacob - George Augustus, age 1 month, parents John and Ann Saunders, abode St Philip, occupation Coal Merchant!!!!

Shame it doesn't give their exact address, but I'll see if there are any more for that family...

kiterunner

13-11-10, 19:05

Hmm, Mary Ann's (1829) father is a Brewer, residence just given as St Philip again. But we should be able to find out something about George Augustus, shouldn't we?

Merry

13-11-10, 19:07

Oooh, I don't mean to ignore the other posts (lolol Babs!) but WOW!!!! Thanks Kate! What's that baps CD you have?

Merry

13-11-10, 19:10

Kate, there are various George Augustus b in Bristol after 1837 but one probably died (1847) and another one is awol in 1851 (reg Q1 1851). I can't see any sign of the original 1827 man.

kiterunner

13-11-10, 19:11

Bristol & Avon FHS Bristol Diocese Baptismal Registers Vols 1-7 Index & Transcripts 1813 - 1837. It's worth looking at what they have for sale - go on their website and click on "Shop".

http://www.bafhs.org.uk/

kiterunner

13-11-10, 19:12

Kate, there are various George Augustus b in Bristol after 1837 but one probably died (1847) and another one is awol in 1851 (reg Q1 1851). I can't see any sign of the original 1827 man.

Oh dear, hope he didn't die young. I haven't got the burials CD, I'm afraid.

Merry

13-11-10, 19:13

I've seen Selina and John (marine captain) and Anne in 1841. (for what it's worth!)

HarrysMum

13-11-10, 19:43

If this is out of the box......forget it.

There is a George Augustus Saunders (age 4) in 1881 in Monmouthshire. He is the nephew of Robert Blair (b Scotland) and Eliza H G Blair (b Scotland).

They are living in Brewery House and Robert is a brewer.

Merry

13-11-10, 19:51

I'm not sure I have the energy for that one.........seems a long way off, from Chelsea.

Merry

13-11-10, 19:53

Can anyone work out what happened to this one?

Name: George Augustine Saunders
Year of Registration: 1851
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Bristol
County: Avon, Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 191

HarrysMum

13-11-10, 19:55

I've got Selina in 1841, but my brain is so fuddled I can't see if you have her or not..... (sorry...early mornings)

HarrysMum

13-11-10, 19:56

Ooops...Selina is with John and Ann and an 80 year old Thomas Saunders but they are Captains......

HarrysMum

13-11-10, 19:57

Just read back.......there were two pages missing a minute ago....lol

I need another cuppa.

Merry

13-11-10, 20:50

*Beats head against the wall*

I wondered if Ann Saunders was widowed and maybe remarried before 1841, then her new OH packed her daughters off to school in 1841. There's a marriage of an Ann Saunders to Charles Biffen in 1837 (Feb :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:) but, of course, they don't show up anywhere for me to see how old Ann might have been. I suppose they may have travelled from somewhere else to Bristol to marry if they are nothing to do with me!

kiterunner

13-11-10, 21:55

Charles Biffen was a yeoman, bachelor, of Charlington, Somerset, and Ann was a spinster OTP(from the marriages CD).

Merry

13-11-10, 22:15

Ah, thank you Kate!!

kiterunner

14-11-10, 09:36

Just to save anybody else searching, there is no Saunders listed under Coal Merchants in the 1822 Pigot's Directory of Somerset and Bristol (I spent some time last night wondering why Bristol wasn't listed under Gloucestershire in an 1822 Pigot's!). Nor 1825-6. Nor 1830 Pigot's Gloucestershire. Nor 1839 Robson's (though it's Coal Dealers in that one). Nor 1842-4. That seems to be all the relevant directories they have on Ancestry.

HarrysMum

14-11-10, 09:45

Bristol does tend to wander around the counties......lol

I've got Bristol records in four counties so far.

So who exactly are we looking for now......I've got a new way of searching the census (no, I can't tell you....lol)

kiterunner

14-11-10, 09:52

Erm... John Saunders, coal merchant, but we don't know if he died before 1841.
George Augustus Saunders who was born 1827 Bristol (St Philip) but we think he probably died before 1841.
Ann(e) Saunders, John's wife or widow, don't know when or where she was born or if she remarried before 1841!!

borobabs

14-11-10, 09:54

Oh Libby you can watch out for my James as well please lol

Merry

14-11-10, 15:33

Thank you Kate for all you searches. I think he must have wanted to be a coal merchant but spent a lot of time doing other things!! I have several ancestors like that.

I feel the father of George Augustus is the right man and presume the baptism of Elizabeth is probably for my ancestor. And therefore the mother of my Elizabeth is Ann........

Who agrees?

I really wish I could sort out the George Augustus who was b in 1851. However, I've now realised those forenames are not as rare as I thought!

kiterunner

14-11-10, 15:56

Yes, I agree Ann is probably Elizabeth's mother.
The one born in 1851 is George Augustine, isn't he?

Merry

14-11-10, 16:19

Yes, sorry. I just wondered if he was connected, but I can't find him in 1851 and he never died or married (regardless of the spelling of his middle name!). I guess he died and the reg has gone awol.....

kiterunner

14-11-10, 16:26

Maybe he just dropped his middle name.

Merry

14-11-10, 17:13

Still can't find him on the 1851 census :(

Merry

14-11-10, 18:17

I'm just sorting out these baps.....

Probable entry for the bap of my 2xg-grm:

Elizabeth bap 05 Dec 1830 at St Augustine-the-Less, Bristol, parents John and Ann Saunders. Abode Anchor Lane, father's occupation Servant.

siblings:

George Augustus bap 23rd Sep 1827 at St Philip & St Jacob, age 1 month, parents John and Ann Saunders. Abode St Philip, father's occupation Coal Merchant.

Mary bap 8th Feb 1829 at St. Phillip and St. Jacob, parents John and Ann Saunders. Abode St Phillip, father's occupation Brewer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

John, Oct 1825, and Selina Ann, July 1832, are the children of a different John and Ann, this one being a mariner who is on the 1851 census with wife and daughter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

Kate :D any chance you could have a look at this one on your CD, for abode and occ?? Oh, I don't know which church it is..........:o

James bap 25th Dec 1825 church not showing on record. Parents John and Ann Saunders.

kiterunner

14-11-10, 18:33

I looked for that one yesterday but I couldn't find it on the CD index and I thought it might be a non-con, but he isn't on the non-con CD either.

Merry

14-11-10, 18:37

Ah well thanks very much for looking :)

Merry

15-11-10, 12:37

*weeps*

Aha! I thought that the FamilySearch pilot site would treat Saunders and Sanders as close matches, but now I've realised it doesn't always

I hadn't thought of that. Now I've found these:

All Sanders and all children of John and Ann:

John bap 13th Oct 1844 St Phillip and St Jacob

John bap 27th Sept 1840 ditto

Benjamin bap 14th Oct 1838 ditto

James 25th Dec 1825 ditto (probably the same one you couldn't find before when I didn't know the church!)

Kate, I hate to be a pain, but could you please check the occs and addys for these entries? I may have found the 1844 John on the 1851 census. I think John and Benjamin both died before 1841, so they could be children of the same John and Ann, though I can't see baps for their daughters, so maybe not. This 'wrong' John and Ann (not really quite old enough to be mine!) are living at St Mary's Court, Mount Pleasant Terrace St P & J, Bristol in 1841 (flax dresser) and at Russell Court, St Thomas, Bristol in 1851 (gen lab)

kiterunner

15-11-10, 13:41

The CD only goes up to 1837, Merry! I'm sure I mentioned that before...

Anyway, now we know that James is listed as Sanders, I've found him, but he doesn't look likely to be one of yours - age 3 years at baptism, residence St Thomas, occupation Labourer.

That Christmas Day was a very popular one for baptisms at that church. 52 baptisms that day, and mostly they did about a dozen baptisms per week (usually all on the same day).

Merry

15-11-10, 14:26

The CD only goes up to 1837, Merry! I'm sure I mentioned that before...

Did you? Sorry, I don't always take things in the first time! lol

Merry

10-04-19, 21:43

I don't know if anyone will remember this thread!

To save reading back....

When my 2xg-grandmother married in 1854 she said her father was John Saunders, coal merchant.

I still don't know much about him, but believe these three baptisms may well be three of his children:

My ancestor:

Elizabeth bap 05 Dec 1830 at St Augustine-the-Less, Bristol, parents John and Ann Saunders. Abode Anchor Lane, father's occupation Servant.

Her brother and sister:

George Augustus bap 23rd Sep 1827 at St Philip & St Jacob, age 1 month, parents John and Ann Saunders. Abode St Philip, father's occupation Coal Merchant.

Mary Ann bap 8th Feb 1829 at St. Phillip and St. Jacob, parents John and Ann Saunders. Abode St Phillip, father's occupation Brewer.

In 1841 Elizabeth and Mary Ann are together, but with no other family members. It seems likely George Augustus either dropped his middle name, making him difficult to trace, or died before civil registration began.

Until today I had no idea what happened to Mary Ann, but I think I might have cracked that now!

I think Mary Ann married Walter Sparrow in 1850. Unfortunately, I've not been able to find an image of the marriage entry (or a transcription including her father's name), but, apart from Mary Ann having the right age and birthplace in 1851, 61 and 71, she also has this son:

SPARROW, GEORGE AUGUSTUS
SAUNDERS
GRO Reference: 1855 D Quarter in BATH Volume 05C Page 628

Just a coincidence?? I might just fork out for the marriage certificate (unless someone can show me a reason not to)!!

If this is Elizabeth's sister, I can only hope the marriage cert gives me another lead on John and Ann.

kiterunner

10-04-19, 22:31

Here is the marriage cert but unfortunately they didn't bother to fill in father's name:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5156/43138_633870_4638-00252/12532886?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dgloucmarriages%26gsfn%3dwal*% 26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26msgdy%3d1850% 26msgdy_x%3d1%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26uid h%3dvm5%26redir%3dfalse%26msT%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Does the witness Elizabeth Saunders' signature match your 2xg-grandmother?

Merry

11-04-19, 07:49

Oh well done for finding that, Kate. Just goes to show, I didn't try hard enough because I didn't expect to find it!

Unbelievable about the fathers names!! No reason for Walter's not to be recorded, as he was a second child born three years after his parents married. Plus he (Walter) was in his parents household aged about 20 in 1841.

As for the signature - I was only able to get a copy of the marriage cert from the GRO for Elizabeth. All I can say is, she could sign her name, whilst her husband couldn't/didn't.

Anyway, here's a bit of better news! When I was looking to see who Walter's father was, I noticed his mother was Rachel Sparrow. This name rang a bell, so I searched for people called Sparrow on my tree, and, surprise, surprise, my Elizabeth Saunders had a son named Cornelius George Burchill and Cornelius married Ellen Rachel Sparrow!

Ellen Rachel was born in 1862 in Siston or Wick and Abson (next parish), Gloucestershire. Her father (from marriage entry and census etc) was John Sparrow, brother of Walter. This John may have been the John Sparrow who witnessed Walter's marriage. John did manage to name his father when he married and was living with his parents in 1841 and with his widowed mother in 1851.

So, quite good circumstantial evidence tying these families, though Cornelius George Burchill only had to travel about 5 miles to find a bride, so I suppose it could still be a co-incidence. I feel the net is closing slowly though!

Wouldn't it be helpful if, when Mary Sparrow died, her death was registered by her sister, Elizabeth Burchill?!! Not that I'd be any further forward with their parents, John and Ann Saunders.

Merry

14-10-19, 07:57

Does the witness Elizabeth Saunders' signature match your 2xg-grandmother?

I had forgotten about this. Here's the witness signatures from the PR marriage entry of Mary Ann Saunders in 1850:

https://dhgsia.bl.files.1drv.com/y4mH3ecMuylN262QWPUAJG6pXD2o1iJw66KUFLOyoanAhUs6MZ Zdcm1hDyp-96m5gBhaTU_UGGEPrudPbGRp4w4N6KjhNjNyrm4YqP-VBBAhQX7IxZHzYFbOfSci4bR4E6JPsJ-sa0ht9WcBegP2F-9gs-lyycoboY3qLTSg8mIbTbcfGdLcENpLs3PS5n9DXhVAsoLqs3Qf N__U0oFWqNCQA?width=884&height=318&cropmode=none

Here's the PR signature of my 2xg-grandmother four years later:

https://dhgria.bl.files.1drv.com/y4mYV64Nsj-UneAdIltez3fpakzKyDJBlw3AtduzsfsZsDXsPKZx4wbf2dPrm 1ESVEO1pAdH8Hk6MozHx2X2RHM3ASogjI1T15Ml34oCaTJJFpZ zRt3AlGw8LZWFVkZXHVPrE8e-xfIh29ur5USUF0eujejOG8gAKC2xWkWg72sowKsgHtAJDDpCK8 xx0jfjvij20orb0KASaPrN5KF-6kB5A?width=660&height=197&cropmode=none

Are they the same person?

I know what I think, so please give your opinion.

kiterunner

14-10-19, 09:35

I don't think so. Some of the letters are very different, for instance the "r".

Merry

14-10-19, 10:16

Hmmm, well, that's the opposite of my thoughts! In particular I thought the Elizabeth was a v good match, except for the E not being attached to the rest.

Even if they don't match (my signature only started to look the same over and over after about ten years and I was using it every day when I was working full time!) I still think these two women are sisters! I note that several of Mary Ann's children died in the time frame between Mary Ann's death and Elizabeth's death. I can see me gradually buying all the death certs on the off chance Elizabeth registered any of the deaths!!

Merry

15-10-19, 08:17

Oooh, a result! Stronger circumstantial evidence!

I was trying to prove Elizabeth Saunders who married Charles Burchill was the sister of Mary Ann Saunders who married Walter Sparrow.

Here's the probate entry for Walter Sparrow:

SPARROW WALTER 9 July (1875). The Will of Walter Sparrow formerly of Doynton but late of the parish of Wick and Abson both in the County of Gloucestershire Yeoman who died 17 May 1866 at Wick and Abson was proved at Gloucester by Charles Burchell of Staplehill in the Parish of Mangotsfield in the said County Butcher and George Bryant of Wick and Abson Carpenter the Executors. Effects under £100.

So, Charles Burchill, his brother-in-law?!

I wonder why it took 9 years?

kiterunner

15-10-19, 09:48

That's useful, Merry.

Merry

15-10-19, 11:26

Yes. I'm presuming as there's no relationship mentioned in the probate index for Walter and Charles, there won't be anything further in the will.

Still debating about the death certs for the Sparrow family and whether there's any chance of a Burchill registering a death and stating their relationship! The problem is, Walter had a lot of family living nearer than the Burchills did so I suppose there's a greater chance they, or neighbours/friends etc, were involved when these deaths occurred.

This is just to remind me of who died when...

Elizabeth Ann (dau) 1854 aged 0 (there was an inquest and some blame was placed on the father for administering a quack medication that he was a local salesman for)

John (son) 1860 aged 0

Walter 1866

Mary Ann (wife) 1872

Alicia Jane (dau) 1873 aged 22

George Augustus (son) 1874 aged 18

Thomas (son) 1875 aged 16

Two daughters survived and married:

Emily Rachel married 1889 to Alfred Arthur Strange.

Mary Augusta married 1892 to Oliver Harold Strange.

Not yet checked to see if Alfred and Oliver were brothers or whatever.

Merry

22-01-20, 08:45

To save anyone having to read this back....

John Saunders and his wife Ann seem to have had at least three children baptised in Bristol:

George Augustus bap 23rd Sep 1827 at St Philip & St Jacob, age 1 month, parents John and Ann Saunders. Abode St Philip, father's occupation Coal Merchant

Mary bap 8th Feb 1829 at St. Phillip and St. Jacob, parents John and Ann Saunders. Abode St Phillip, father's occupation Brewer.

Elizabeth bap 05 Dec 1830 at St Augustine-the-Less, Bristol, parents John and Ann Saunders. Abode Anchor Lane, father's occupation Servant.

I have never found the parents, John and Ann after these baptisms for their children. I have traced the daughters Elizabeth and Mary forward, but no clues about John and Ann were forthcoming. I had presumed George Augustus had died, possibly before civil registration, but now I'm not so sure....

I thought I was just going to eliminate this George below, but it's not happening so far! I'm putting what I've found in chronological order, but that's not the order I found the info...

1841 Census (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/KENHO107_456_458-0643/2858321?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return) - (possible entry) Brompton Barracks, Gillingham, Medway, Kent:

George Saunders 15 soldier not born in county

1851 Census (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/KENHO107_1588_1588-0959/1112990?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return) - Royal Artillery Barracks, Woolwich, Kent:

George Saunders Private unm 24 Private Royal Marines b St Philips & Jacob, Gloucestershire

Marriage Entry (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_194766-00109/2094867?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d1623%26gsfn%3dgeorge%26gsln %3dsaunders%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d11%26 msgdy%3d1851%26msgdy_x%3d1%26qh%3d1cFguUysksnUniKE Bs8zEg%253d%253d%26hc%3d50%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26 uidh%3d672%26redir%3dfalse&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults) - St Dunstan Stepney 9 Jun 1851 banns

George Saunders, full age, bachelor, Private Royal Marines, residence Stepney, father John Saunders sugar refiner
Martha Norton, full age, spinster, residence Stepney, father John Norton inspector of pavements
witnesses Henry Caton and Hannah White. Everyone signed.

1861 Census (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/KENRG9_405_409-0406/6647810?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return) - 21 Lower Wood St, Woolwich, Kent

George Sanders head married 35 labourer b Bristol
Martha Sanders wife married 28 b Camberwell
Martha Sanders dau 5 b Woolwich, Kent
George Sanders son 2 b Woolwich, Kent

1871 Census (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/KENRG10_909_912-0048?pid=6120286&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DOUd6479%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7619%26gs fn%3Dmartha%26gsln%3Dsaunders%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln_ x%3D1%26cp%3D11%26gskw%3Dkent%26gskw_x%3D1%26msbdy %3D1856%26msbdy_x%3D1%26msbdp%3D2%26qh%3DWCyPSF4P9 qqXCYxNX%252BpEPA%253D%253D%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%2 6uidh%3D672%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D6120286%26recoff%3D%2 6ml_rpos%3D1%26queryId%3Ddd6e8615f6f9b5d92e88aa18e fd3d33b&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=OUd6479&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) - 4 Days Alley, Chatham, Kent

George (middle initial ?, but it isn't an A!) Saunders head married 45 smith dockyard b Somerset, Bristol
Martha Saunders wife married 37 b Surrey, Camberwell
Martha Saunders dau 15 scholar b Kent, Woolwich
George Saunders son 12 ditto
Charles Saunders son 8 ditto
James Saunders son 4 ditto
Ann Saunders dau 1 b Kent, Chatham

The children all have mmn Norton.

I'm not sure what happens next. There are some possible matches for some of the sons in S Wales in later censuses, but at the moment I'm more interested in whether John Saunders sugar refiner is yet another incarnation for my tricky 3xg-grandfather, and if this is him, does it help at all?!!

Merry

22-01-20, 08:46

Royal Marines records seem to be at TNA, but I couldn't find anything to fit this George.

Merry

22-01-20, 09:46

Martha's father was dec'd when she married in 1851, but this isn't recorded at the marriage.

kiterunner

22-01-20, 10:26

I don't think George on the 1871 census has a middle initial; I think it's just a strange way the enumerator has of writing the final e.

Have you looked at this website?
http://www.mawer.clara.net/intro.html

Merry

22-01-20, 10:34

Yes, I see what you mean about the middle initial.

No, I hadn't seen that site. Looks very interesting.

Merry

23-01-20, 22:42

The eldest dau, Martha, married Henry Huggins in 1875 in Bedminster. Looks like either her mother and brother or both her parents were witnesses. If it's both the parents then I wonder if these are their deaths? (both in the same Q and only one Q before Martha jr's husband died)

Deaths Jun 1877
SAUNDERS George 51 Bedminster 5c 506
SAUNDERS Martha 43 Bedminster 5c 502

Merry

24-01-20, 07:18

Bother, found the burials for the above and hoped their addresses would help prove they were a couple. However, she has Bedminster Union Hospital and he has 9 Devonport St, so no help a all! They were buried 2 1/2 weeks apart.

Martha Saunders abt 1834 25 May 1877 Bedminster, St John
George Saunders abt 1826 11 Jun 1877 Bedminster, St John

I can't see a burial for Martha jr's husband, Henry Huggins.

By 1881 Martha jr seems to be living with 60 year-old Thomas Lester. I know it's her, despite having added a few years to her age, because they have her daughter Martha Mary Huggins, 6, living with them at 34 Twinnell Road, Bristol. I can't see a marriage. Don't know what happens after this.

Merry

24-01-20, 13:08

Ah, spelled wrong:

Henry Higgins abt 1856 5 Jul 1877 Bedminster, St John.

Address, Hereford St, Bristol

Hmmm, here's the bap for their daughter - different address though only a very short time later - no mention of the father being dec'd and now he and Martha senr both have a middle name and now I realise Henry was Henry William at his birth reg but not at the wedding.

Martha Mary Huggins bap 20 Jul 1877 Bedminster, St John, Bristol Henry William, Martha Mary - address Paul St, occ shoe maker.

So, now I'm wondering about the 1877 burial. That Henry is the right age and right area, but is he the right Henry? There's no other obvious one to fit.

Merry

11-07-21, 10:29

Trying to eliminate marriages/burials for John Saunders and his wife Ann.

To save reading back, I believe these are their children:

George Augustus Saunders born Aug 1827 bap Sept 1827 St Philip and Jacob, Bristol, father Coal Merchant

Mary Ann Saunders bap Feb 1829 ditto, father Brewer

Elizabeth Saunders bap Dec 1830 St Augustine the Less, Bristol, father Servant

All other children with parents John and Ann Saunders/Sanders born around the same time and area have been eliminated.

When son George married in 1851 he said Sugar Refiner for his father, so plenty of different occupations, none of whch help!!

There's this marriage:

John Saunders to Ann Stevens (spinster, signed Stephens), St Thomas Bristol 18 Jun 1826. John (bachelor) is a corn factor. They both signed and the witnesses are James Jones and Elizabeth (Something)field.

Can anyone read that witness name?

There are Saunders/Stephens/Stevens births after 1837 but they belong to John Saunders and Mary Stevens who married in 1831.

I keep also looking at these burials:

Ann Saunders b abt 1798 18 Sep 1831 Dyrham, St Peter - abode Wick

John Saunders b abt 1798 7 Apr 1833 Dyrham, St Peter - abode Bristol

Obviously they may be nothing to do with each other and/or, nothing to do with me.

Wick is probably Wick and Abson which is within a mile ot two of Dyrham and also very close to a place called Doynton where dau Mary Ann married in 1850. She then lived in both Doynton and Wick and Abson.

In 1841 the two daughters were living in the house of a school teacher in Mangotsfield and the son was in the army, so not really much help.

Any ideas?!

Merry

11-07-21, 14:30

Oooh, oooh.... I don't know where this is going...

John and Ann's daughter Mary Ann, married Walter Sparrow.

Walter Sparrow's parents were Thomas Sparrow and Rachel Stevens. On their marriage entry in Dyrham in 1818 Rachel's name is written Stevens, but she has signed Stephens just like Ann did eight years later (different church though!. Just wondering if Mary Ann married a cousin?

Merry

11-07-21, 14:36

Rachel Stevens/Stephens b about 1797 in Hinton, Gloucestershire according to 1851/61 census. Pity I can't see a baptism!

Merry

11-07-21, 14:38

Couldn't see for looking!

Rachel Stevens Baptism 8 Jan 1797 Dyrham & Hinton, Gloucestershire Walter, Ann

Merry

11-07-21, 14:46

Oooh, sibling (amongst others):

Ann Stevens Baptism 30 Sep 1798 Dyrham & Hinton, Gloucestershire Walter, Ann

How to prove anything? I need Walter to have lived to after 1826 and then t have left a will!

Merry

11-07-21, 14:49

He's not been helpful if this is him!

Walter Stephens abt 1761 29 Mar 1816 Dyrham and Hinton

Merry

11-07-21, 14:57

That is him as Find A Grave have a photo of the gravestone which has him 1816, wife Ann 1821 and a dau Martha 1805.

Martha was bap 1795.

Still wondering about proof as otherwise with such common names it could all be a coincidence.

kiterunner

11-07-21, 15:09

Merry

11-07-21, 15:13

Thanks Kite, I'll see if I can find anything about her later.

Walter Stephens left a PCC will. If only he had lived another ten+ years lol. Just going to read it now.

Merry

11-07-21, 15:17

Walter's will just tells me his daughter Ann is still living, which is a start!

Merry

11-07-21, 15:51

Hmm... Ann Stephens sig on her marriage in 1826 is similar to the witness at the marriage of her sister Mary to John Anstey in Dyrham in 1823. The witness Ann can't be their mother as she had died in 1821.

I don't think 'similar' helps much.

Nothing found for Elizabeth Cranfield at the moment.

Merry

04-11-21, 13:09

To save reading back....!

I've been trying to establish the parentage of my 2xg-grandmother Elizabeth Saunders b 1830 since at least 2008. All I really had was that her parents were John and Ann Saunders from somewhere around the Bristol area and that she very likely had two siblings, George and Mary Ann. There is a moderate chance John and Ann were both dead by 1841. I've spent a lot of time trying to eliminate various people, so decided to tackle the problem by picking the most likely couple and extending their trees to see if anything jumps out to help me.

Walter Stephens (Stevens) b abt 1761 married Ann Anstee (Anst(e)y etc) b abt 1761 in 1794 at Dyrham and Hinton, Gloucestershire. They had three surviving children one of whom was Ann Stephens, b 1798. Some of the past stuff on this thread attempts to address the question of whether this Ann Stephens is the same person who married John Saunders in Bristol in 1826 and whether this is also the couple who are parents to my Elizabeth Saunders.

Looking at this again yesterday, I realised last time round (post #95 above) I had missed a big clue! Find A Grave has photos of the graves of Walter and Ann Stephens and if I had bothered to read the whole of the inscription for Walter's stone I would have seen the part that says, "Also to the Memory of Ann Wife of John Saunders and Daughter of the said Walter and Ann Stephens who departed his life September 14th 1831 aged 33 years".

So, now I can be sure the dau of Walter and Ann Stephens did marry a John Saunders. It's very likely her husband is the John Saunders buried at Dyrham and Hinton in 1733 aged 35, despite apparently dying in Bristol (PR entry).

I haven't yet proved John and Ann are the people who married in 1826 or that the three children, including my Elizabeth, are the children of this couple and not another random John and Ann Sa(u)nders. The closest I've got is that my Elizabeth Saunders' sister, Mary Ann, married Walter Sparrow who happened to be a nephew of Ann Stephens/Saunders. So if Ann is my ancestor that's a first cousin marriage rather than just a random one.

Now I've just seen that Ann Anstee b 1761 had a sister named Martha Anstee b 1751. Martha didn't marry and had a long life, being bur at Dyrham and Hinton in 1833. She also wrote a will! I'm hoping the beneficiaries of her will will include the descendants of her siblings. She had outlived her niece, Ann Stephens/Saunders by two years. I don't know who was caring for Ann's children after her death, but I'm wondering if there's any chance of them getting any sort of mention in Martha's will? Only one way to find out!!