View Full Version : I need someone to agree with me.
It's this blinky Addison family again.
I have Agnes Addison daughter of Hugh Addison marrying William Kirkby 5th Nov 1727, Hawkshead, Lancs.
I can't find Agnes' birth but I have Hugh Addison's will of 1743 where he names Agnes Kirkby as his daughter and also names the grandchildren.
Hugh Addison's wife was Jane Unknown. Cannot find a marriage.
I've stumbled across a will of Robert Scales from Hawkshead. It's dated 1707 (he died 1708). It names his daughter and son in law as Jane and Hugh Addison.
Robert doesn't name any children for Jane and Hugh, but the dates could work well.
Robert Scales' wife was Agnes Mackreth (a surname that pops up for generations of wills in the Kirkby family).
I've pencilled Jane Scales as Hugh's wife, but can anyone think of anything else I can search.
Sounds like the same people to me Libby.
Maybe look for a baptism for Jane Scales to see if the ages still fit and it might lead to the marriage.
Tried that Kit...............can't find her at all.
garstonite
07-11-10, 07:25
on Lan-opc there is a marriage as follows
3rd february 1682/83 at Holy Trinity, Bolton le Sands
Hugh Addison to Jane Chippindall
abode for both is Boulton
I can only presume that 82/83 means the transcriber couldn`t decipher if it is a 2 or 3
so.....how far is Boulton from Hawkshead ?....let`s try and find out
allan
ADDED.......35 miles to Bolton Le Sands from Hawkshead....
Agnes to WILL Kirkby (not William) 5th November 1727 at St Michael and All Angels,Hawkshead,Lancashire
Allan...distance doesn't worry me with this lot. They'd go anywhere to marry if it meant more money....lol
I have pencilled that marriage in ages ago, but Hugh Addison died in 1743 so I thought that would be too early.............his parents maybe???
Then there's that will of Robert Scales who gives his daughter and son in law as Jane and Hugh Addison.
I know you don't have a birth/bap record for Agnes Addison, but do you know roughly when she was born, or the birth (rough) years for any siblings or at least any names?
Robert Scales' wife was Agnes Mackreth
Do you have their marriage?
Do you have their marriage?
30th Jan 1648.
garstonite
07-11-10, 07:45
babtism on 27th aug 1828 Jane Kirkby at St Michael and All Angels daughter of William looks like the first child of William and Agnes
abode Thwaite
allan:)
Ah, 1648! (*feels jealous*)
Olde Crone
07-11-10, 07:46
Allan
The 1682/3 thing is to indicate the old style calendar before 1751.
OC
Allan................Agnes (Addison) and William Kirkby only had two children, Jane and David.
We've (everyone here...lol) never found David's baptism but he went on to marry Agatha Sawrey and lived to 80.
garstonite
07-11-10, 08:02
Thanks OC....I`m still learning...never knew that....cheers....allan:)
Allan................Agnes (Addison) and William Kirkby only had two children, Jane and David.
We've (everyone here...lol) never found David's baptism but he went on to marry Agatha Sawrey and lived to 80.
Was Jane baptised?
Jane was baptised 27th Aug 1728 St Michaels and All Angels, Hawkshead.
David should have been born about 1730.
I'd love to get hold of these books...
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=AGNnAAAAMAAJ&q=%22david+kirkby%22+hawkshead&dq=%22david+kirkby%22+hawkshead&hl=en&ei=SW_WTN_6LoL2vwOT-qDHCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBA
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=SGdmAAAAMAAJ&q=%22david+kirkby%22+hawkshead&dq=%22david+kirkby%22+hawkshead&hl=en&ei=SW_WTN_6LoL2vwOT-qDHCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBQ
The first of those two books has an entry:
I can't get the date.....20th of ??????
John Sawrey and Mary Barrow, spinster, both p. Cartmell. Bondsman: William Sawrey, of Sawrey, p. Hawkshead, yeoman. Witness: David Kirkby, William Sawrey
Merry......I can't get even 20th??
Every Lancashire name in OH's tree is in that book.....lol......plus those others I'm not yet sure about.
I've only ever found 2 David Kirkbys. One is the 1730 David son of William and the other is William's father, David born 1661. He marries Elizabeth Sawrey.
Is all that suff about Wordsworth and Mary Rigg of Greenend to do with YOUR David Kirkby?
I do agree with you, by the way!
Have you tried to find a copy of the marriage bond book?
I'm sure there are copies of the Burkes book in my local library, but whether they are the right edition, I don't know!
Yep...that's the one.
David Kirkby (1730) had his way with William Rigge's daughter, Mary. Mary had a son, David Benone Rigge in 1759. She died in 1760. The baby ended up doing very well for himself in London.
Wordsworth wrote his first ballad about Mary Rigge dying of a broken heart.
Those two books I put the links up for are available in some English libraries. I think I looked the right way.....lol
I've got the Wordsworth book with all the sordid details.
I don't mind having a look at Burkes Landed Gentry some time, if you like.
I can see the other book at a couple of places, but Widnes, Cheshire (the one with the best looking library index) isn't very close by me!! lol
http://library.halton.gov.uk/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=WH63660665933.1085348&profile=dial&uindex=TL&term=Marriage%20Bonds%20for%20the%20Deaneries%20of %20Lonsdale,%20Kendal,%20Furness%20and%20Copeland, %20Part%20of%20the%20Archdeaconry%20of%20Richmond, %20Now%20Preserved%20at%20Lancaster.%201648%20-%201710&aspect=subtab82&menu=search&source=~!dial#focus
David Benone Rigge
Ah, once I saw that name everything slotted into place! lol
kiterunner
07-11-10, 09:24
Burkes Landed Gentry is on ancestry, isn't it? I think you have to go onto a different tab, the "Stories & Publications" one, instead of "Historical Records".
Olde Crone
07-11-10, 09:28
Merry
Don't forget the inter library lending service..you can borrow books from any library in the uk.
Burke's Landed Gentry has to be carefully filtered to get rid of the froth put there by the original submitter, lol - a few of mine left out some awkward facts they didn't want widely known, like bigamous marriages/divorces/no marriage at all.
OC
Merry
Don't forget the inter library lending service..you can borrow books from any library in the uk.
OC
There are a lot of different editions of that Bond book - I wouldn't want to get the wrong one, as the libary charges these days!
I can't find it on Ancestry.
Merry.....I was looking at the Burkes book and there are some for sale, but I'm not sure if they are the same edition. I can't find which editon it was or the ISBN.
I'm happy to buy it if i can work out which one, although I'd prefer the marriage bonds one.....lol
What about emailing the people who have the Bonds books (that library link I posted earlier) and asking them about something specific. (Like is there a names index? lol)
kiterunner
07-11-10, 09:49
Must be the wrong edition of Burke's Landed Gentry on ancestry, because there is no Kirkby entry. I'll have a look at the one they have at Notts Archives next time I'm there.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=6625
I'll email the libraries that have the Bonds book and see if they can help at all.
Thanks everyone..................I really think I could use ink putting Hugh Addison's wife as Jane Scales....
Mary from Italy
07-11-10, 22:30
From Ancestry (transcription only, no image):
20 Jan [1699-1700] John Sawrey and Mary Barrow, spinster, both p. Cartmell. Bondsman: William Sawrey, of Sawrey, p. Hawkshead, yeoman. Witness: David Kirkby, William Sawrey.
Book: Lancaster Marriage Bonds (Marriage Bond)
Collection: Lancashire: - Marriage Bonds, Deaneries of Lonsdale, Kendal, Furness and Copeland (Archdeaconry of Richmond) 1648-1710
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=epr_Lancashire%2c&rank=0&gsfn=david&gsln=kirkby&sx=&gs1co=1%2cAll+Countries&gs1pl=1%2c+&year=&yearend=&sbo=1&sbor=&ufr=0&wp=4%3b_80000002%3b_80000003&srchb=r&prox=1&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&o_iid=21417&o_lid=21417&offerid=0%3a21318%3a0&pcat=34&fh=4&h=56370&recoff=7+8
Mary from Italy
07-11-10, 22:36
There are several Hugh Addison entries and a Jane Scales burial, but I can't see an Addison-Scales marriage.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=5895&enc=1
Mary from Italy
07-11-10, 22:42
This page shows the records included in the Ancestry database, including Lancashire: - Marriage Bonds, Deaneries of Lonsdale, Kendal, Furness and Copeland (Archdeaconry of Richmond) 1648-1710 :
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=5895
Mary from Italy
07-11-10, 23:04
The Hawkshead PRs 1568-1704 are online - not sure if you've already seen them?
http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924104091701#page/n7/mode/2up
Thanks Mary............that first David Kirkby would be the grandfather of the David born 1730.
Just excuse me while I write this to clear my mind on what I have.......lol
Things I'm 100% certain of...
Hugh Addison married Jane Unknown.
They had a daughter, Agnes.
Agnes married William Kirkby 1727, Hawkshead.
Their children, Jane 1728 and David c 1730.
Robert Scales died 1708 Hawkshead and names Jane and Hugh Addison as his daughter and son in law.
Oooh Thank you Mary. I had that book downloaded and it disappeared. I looked half last night for it.....
OK....gone back 30 years and still nuffin. Seems some are in the rcords and some aren't.
Is it normal for at least 80% of the marriages to be by licence??
Arn't the main reasons for marrying by licence, marrying in a parish where neither of you reside, social climbing, belonging to a non-C of E denomination and having to marry in a hurry, prefering to do so without the publicity of banns.
garstonite
08-11-10, 06:04
I don't mind having a look at Burkes Landed Gentry some time, if you like.
I can see the other book at a couple of places, but Widnes, Cheshire (the one with the best looking library index) isn't very close by me!! lol
http://library.halton.gov.uk/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=WH63660665933.1085348&profile=dial&uindex=TL&term=Marriage%20Bonds%20for%20the%20Deaneries%20of %20Lonsdale,%20Kendal,%20Furness%20and%20Copeland, %20Part%20of%20the%20Archdeaconry%20of%20Richmond, %20Now%20Preserved%20at%20Lancaster.%201648%20-%201710&aspect=subtab82&menu=search&source=~!dial#focus
IT IS MY LOCAL LIBRARY....I go every 2 weeks to Widnes library and I am very friendly with the staff...what is the title and author ???...I will order it if it is already out on loan.....allan:)
Thanks Allan....
It's this
http://library.halton.gov.uk/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=WH63660665933.1085348&profile=dial&uindex=TL&term=Marriage%20Bonds%20for%20the%20Deaneries%20of %20Lonsdale,%20Kendal,%20Furness%20and%20Copeland, %20Part%20of%20the%20Archdeaconry%20of%20Richmond, %20Now%20Preserved%20at%20Lancaster.%201648%20-%201710&aspect=subtab82&menu=search&source=~!dial#focus
Shivers......that's big from where I'm looking..lol
I'll have to find the exact names and dates and get them to you. If it's all too much, don't worry.
Arn't the main reasons for marrying by licence, marrying in a parish where neither of you reside, social climbing, belonging to a non-C of E denomination and having to marry in a hurry, prefering to do so without the publicity of banns.
That's what I thought, but they are all locals. One lot of nine marriages had four where the bride and groom had the same surname...lol
I'm wondering about Quakers??????? I'm sure there were a few Quakers along with the odd RC all living happily. They did have their names down in the Cof E list though.
Also...........more questions. There are pages in this book of records 1500s to 1704, where they have a list of Baptisms and a list of Christenings. They also have a list of Marriages (in Latin) and a list of "Weddings". Haven't worked out why yet.
Maybe because it's Lancashire and Lancashire is different......lol
****OC told me that ages ago****
Olde Crone
08-11-10, 07:26
Another reason for marrying by licence in Lancashire was the weather, lol.
Some churches were so isolated, the Vicar didn't get there very often and not at all in the winter, so a licence enabled a marriage to take place elsewhere other than the usual stamping ground.
I vaguely remember reading that Hawkshead church was without a Vicar or Curate for a few of the early years - that might have something to do with it.
OC
Thanks OC.....that makes sense. These marriages are all in the register for Hawkshead though.
Another question...
In this register book, it has the burials. Some have "In the church" or "buried in the church" and some have "in the Chancell". Anyone know waht that would mean??
The marriages have some that have taken place elsewhere. Some say "married in Olverstone" or "married in Coniston".
Still can't find the ones I want.
Found two new Sawreys though..............Patience and Obedience. I wonder if they lived up to those names....lol
Olde Crone
08-11-10, 08:28
The great and the good (and the rich) were buried INSIDE the church and only the greater and gooder in the chancel, lol.
The nearer you were buried to the altar, the better your chances on Judgement day.
OC
Thank you again....
Obviously this lot were really good.....lol
Blimey... that church must have been big...lol
Olde Crone
08-11-10, 09:07
Described here as surprisingly large inside, lol:
http://www.visitcumbria.com/amb/hawkshead-st-michael-and-all-angels-church.htm
Must have been...................they're buried in the church, the chancell, the quire and the templo (haven't found that yet...thought it might just be the church, but it's on the same pages so must be different...
I'm wondering about Quakers??????? I'm sure there were a few Quakers along with the odd RC all living happily.
What are you wondering?
Quakers would have married in their own ceremony and in the 1700s wouldn't have stepped into a C of E church. They had their own burying grounds too. RCs would have either married in the C of E (probably not locally) or had some sort of clandestine marriage if they couldn't face the C of E!
Merry...I don't know much about Quakers....
The book I'm going through is the Register Book for Hawkshead. It does have some burials where it says Joe Blogg quaker died of tree falling....
There is another burial where it says the person was a Quaker and "the first of that sect to have the 'corps' buried in the new ground".
There is also a baptism of a Patience and Obedience Sawrey and they sound Quaker like names to me.
Forgot to add............these are from the early 1600s.
Olde Crone
08-11-10, 09:36
There was an established Quaker Meeting House and burial ground at Hawkshead (well, very near) - the burial ground predated the Meeting house.
OC
There was an established Quaker Meeting House and burial ground at Hawkshead (well, very near) - the burial ground predated the Meeting house.
OC
So they could have had their funeral (burial) service in the CofE then buried in their own ground????
Can now beat Patience and Obedience for names
Radagunga Rawlinson..........what a beauty!!!
I love this book.
I doubt they would have had their burial service in the C of E because they would have been disowned for such an act! (as I said, they would literally not have set foot in a C of E place of worship) Most likely the vicar was just recording what he knew of the BMDs for the Quakers because he thought he might get some praise from other quarters if he could identify them should it come to pass they were all to be burnt at the stake or some other ghastly end.
My earlist Quakers have the birthdates of their children recorded by the C of E vicar inside the front cover of the baptism register (1680s-ish)
There is also a baptism of a Patience and Obedience Sawrey and they sound Quaker like names to me.
If they were baptised they were not Quakers, but if they were birth records in the bap register, they might be!
Merry...
You might make more sense of this than I can.
The marriages, baptisms and burials are in lists for the year, with a date beside them.
The ones that mention 'Quaker' are in amongst the lists but don't have dates. Where the date is supposed to be they have so for 1695 Baptisms there is..
Jan (date) blah blah,,,,
Ffeb (date) blah blah
eod die Wm Attkinson quaker Chrisned his son William.
Mar (date) blah blah.
Same with the burial list except
eodm die......Agnes wife of Edward Rigge de heywrey a Quaker which was buried at Coulthouse in George Braithw packe the same beinge an Intended buryinge place for that Sect and shee the fisrt Corps which was layde therein.
George would have been Braithwaite I'd say...plenty of them....lol
I guess the burial record was just the vicar keeping tabs on which Quakers had died.
Not sure about the word Christened being used, but maybe he meant in the context of the child having been named, rather than having been baptised?
Other people express this better than me, so I've copied the following bit from another site about Quakerism:
Quakers and sacraments
Quakers neither practise baptism nor celebrate the Eucharist.
They don't regard some activities as more sacred than others, nor do they believe that any particular ritual is needed to get in touch with God, so they do not believe in the sacraments practised in mainstream Christian churches.
Instead of using 'holy' rituals, Quakers attempt to carry the sacred into every part of their lives. So, for example, they say that baptism should not be "a single act of initiation but a continuing growth in the Holy Spirit and a commitment which must be continually renewed."
Sounds fine to me. Pity more people didn't live like that...
Olde Crone
08-11-10, 13:04
Although I really wouldn't think this applied to Quakers, some nonconformists were forced into having their children baptised, either that or pay a fine for non baptism. It might also have been a qualification for employment.
OC
garstonite
08-11-10, 15:55
Thanks Allan....
It's this
http://library.halton.gov.uk/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=WH63660665933.1085348&profile=dial&uindex=TL&term=Marriage%20Bonds%20for%20the%20Deaneries%20of %20Lonsdale,%20Kendal,%20Furness%20and%20Copeland, %20Part%20of%20the%20Archdeaconry%20of%20Richmond, %20Now%20Preserved%20at%20Lancaster.%201648%20-%201710&aspect=subtab82&menu=search&source=~!dial#focus
Shivers......that's big from where I'm looking..lol
I'll have to find the exact names and dates and get them to you. If it's all too much, don't worry.
Libby....Ann goes around Widnes Market ...and I am bored to tears following her around like a puppy...I will be more than happy to sit in the library and sift through the book...get me the names and dates...I might be going this Wednesday - if not - definitely next week....allan:)
Thank you Allan.
I'll pm what I'm after.
OC..................re the fines. This register book talks about the fines collected from the Quakers.
Olde Crone
08-11-10, 21:17
That's interesting Libby, I thought that Quakers and Jews were exempt from fines and that they were always allowed to practice their own religion, although google tells me I'm wrong about Quakers, who had a specific Act of religious tolerance in the 1600s, implying they didn't always enjoy freedom of worship.
Incidentally - what years does your "register" cover? I'm wondering if some of it covers the interregnum years.
OC
OC......1568 to 1704.
It's a brilliant read.
Here it is...
http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924104091701#page/n3/mode/2up
garstonite
11-11-10, 05:52
Good morning Libby...I went to Halton Library yesterday and the 2 Librarians were extremely helpful ...they were with me for half an hour....but,sad to say the book you want is Volume 74
written in 1920
editor John Brownbill
published by Record Society of Lancashire and Cheshire
format.. Chronological list plus indexes of names and places
and is NOT in their library....it is held in Chester , in the main Cheshire Records Office..
I was shocked a little as she brought out a few books re the Marriage bonds and Deaneries etc etc.....and they are the size of a normal schoolbook...I expected a huge Reference book like something out of Harry Potter......so she found out that Hawkshead records are in Volume 74...and as I said this book is in Chester Office....
and I took out a book called
Finding your tree online by Nancy Hendrickson with a huge amount of websites...so it wasn`t a complete waste of time ....it was a good experience watching the 2 women work together online and up and down the stairs....
better luck next time
If anyone is in Chester and wants to check if they DO in fact have the book the phone number is
01244 972574
allan;)
Thanks Allan. I might email Chester and ask them. You never know.....
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