View Full Version : I can't find him.
I have just decided it was time to research my fathers side of the family.
He was James Davidson born Scotland 1922 (passed 1986)
His parents were James and Jeanie Davidson (nee Brown)
Now my problem arises with my grandfather.
His full name was James John Douglas Laidlow Davidson....the illegitmate child of Agnes Davidson born 22-4-1894 in Skelkirk Scotland.
His mother Agnes died in November aged 35...it was reported by her brother John.
I can't find what happened to my Grandfather after his mother died....someone must have looked after him....I just can't find him in the 1901 census.....could anyone have a little look for me please.
Have you researched back into Agnes' family? Were her parents still alive in 1901 and have you found her brother and any other siblings in 1901, to eliminate them as possible carers? I don't know if you are using Ancestry or Scotlands People to search, but Ancestry is littered with mistranscriptions in the Scottish censuses in all fields!
I paid for the reserach to be done.
Agnes doesn't state her age on James Davidson's birth certificate.
He married in 1921 and it states his mother was Agnes...no father....and that she is deceased.
I haven't been able to find Agnes's brother John Davidson
Agnes's father Robert died in 1882...registered by his son John
Agnes mother Catherine (nee Welsh)died 1877....registered by her husband Robert
All the above was at Skelkirk Scotland.
So, are these the right people in 1881 at 9 Curror Street, Selkirk?
Robert Davidson head 80 occ woollen weaver, b Galashiels, Roxburghshire
Margaret Davidson dau 39 woollen winder b Galashiels, Roxburghshire
Alison Davidson dau 30 woollen weaver b Selkirk, Selkirkshire
Thomas Davidson son 26 plumber b Selkirk, Selkirkshire
Agnes Davidson dau 21 woollen winder b Selkirk, Selkirkshire
Apparently the same family in 1871.......though Robert has completely changed his place of birth.....
Robert Davidson head 70 hand loom woolleen weaver b Dunse, Berwickshire
Cathrine Davidson wife 52 b Selkirk
Cathrine Davidson dau 18 power loom woollen weaver b Selkirk
Thomas Davidson son 16 plumber b Selkirk
Andrew Davidson son 13 woollen factory worker b Selkirk
Agness Davidson dau 11 scholar b Selkirk
No John yet! I would say you would need to work forward with all these sisters to see what they were doing in 1901. Your grandfather might be listed with one of them and perhaps with the wrong surname or a bad mistranscription of Davidson!
His mother Agnes died in November aged 35...it was reported by her brother John.
I presume you mean in the year James was born?
I am not terribly familiar with Scottish certificates.....if James' birth cert in 1894 gave no age for the mum and no father, how do you know it's this Agnes (dau of Robert and Catherine and sister of John) who was the mother and not another Agnes?
Was the 1894 birth address the same place as where Agnes died?
In 1891 Agnes and her sister Alison are living at 9 Curror St Selkirk (the 1881 address)
I should think Robert may have been married twice given his age and that of Catherine, so John may have been a lot older. (I'm wondering if you have all this already! lol)
In 1901 Alison Davidson is still unmarried and has two nieces living with her, who might be a brother's children (or illegitimate children of a sister) - Catherine aged 16 and Mary aged 15, both b Selkirk ( no JAMES with them!!)
kiterunner
07-09-10, 09:01
Scotland's People lists an inventory for Agnes Davidson of Curror Street, Selkirk, 7th May 1895, but it gives the date of death as 11th April 1895. She died intestate (i.e. didn't leave a will). Surely it must be the same Agnes, though, since it's Curror Street? I would think it's worth you paying to view it as it might give you some clues. You just go on Scotland's People and search in the Wills & Testaments for Agnes Davidson, and it's number 5 on the list. The cost to view it is £5.
kiterunner
07-09-10, 09:03
Oh, anyway, checking on the Statutory Deaths search also on Scotland's People, Agnes Davidson age 35 died in Selkirk in 1895, not 1894.
1861...I can't face typing out everything in full.....I'm still looking for John in order to trace him forward. Maybe I have the wrong family?
Robert Davidson 60 b Danse, Berwickshire
Catharine Davidson 42 b Selkirk
Margaret Davidson 19 b Melrose, Roxburghshire
Mary Davidson 15 b Melrose, Roxburghshire
James Davidson 13 b Melrose, Roxburghshire
Alison Davidson 10 b Selkirk and so are the rest of the Davidsons
Catharine Davidson 8
Thomas Davidson 6
Andrew Davidson 3
Agnes Davidson 1
Margaret Grey 56 b Hawick, Roxburghshire No relationship given
Having looked up Agnes' birth record on Family Search, this would appear to be Robert and Catherine's marriage:
ROBERT DAVIDSON
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:
Marriages:
Spouse: CATHARINE WELSH Family
Marriage: 10 MAY 1844 Melrose, Roxburgh, Scotland
Messages: Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.
Still no John. I am getting worried......
Hooray 1851:
Robert Davidson 50
Catherine Davidson 30
John Davidson 23 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<:)
William Davidson 17
Peter Davidson 15
Isabella Davidson 12
Margaret Davidson 9
Mary Davidson 5
James Davidson 3
Aleson Davidson 1
John is said to be born in Dunse, Berwick, same as his father has said most times. Obviously he is Agnes' half-brother!
This looks like John in 1901 in Selkirk with his son, Robert and Robert's family:
Robert Davidson 49
Eliza S Davidson 46
William Davidson 20
Isabella Davidson 19
Mary Davidson 15
Robert Davidson 2
Thomas L Davidson 8
John Davidson 73 father b Duns, Berwickshire
So, that's good. Doesn't yet find James though....
There's a lot of family to trace forward here and Robert may have had further earlier children who we haven't found yet. Unless someone turns up a good mistranscription for James I think there could be a huge amount of work to trace each family forward top see who they have with them in 1901. Of course it's always possible he wasn't included in the census or his name was misrecorded (as opposed to mis-transcribed) esp if he was in some sort of institution.
Oh my goodness...I snuck off to cook apot of pumpkin soup for tea ......andyou have found all that for me.
In the report I received she did say that they could only confirm 100% that Agnes Davidson was my grandfathers mother......but it was only most likely that the Agnes who died in 1895 aged 35 is the right Agnes.
That Agnes was born in 1859 to Robert and Catherine Davidson (nee Walsh).....he had previoulsy been married to Isobel.
I am just gong to read back through what you have found and try to get it straight in my head.
Thank you very much.
9 Curror St in 1891 also finds:
Thomas Davidson 33 plumber
Lizzie Davidson 10 dau
Catherine Davidson 6 dau (the one with Alison in 1901)
Mary L Davidson 5 dau (ditto)
Margaret Davidson 48 sister
Well, I would say, given Agnes' place of death it's 99.99999999% likely to be the right Agnes! lol (Ah, but where was James born?) Seeing the inventory for Agnes would probably make that cast iron 100%, depending on James' place of birth.
1841 at Buckholmside, Melrose, Roxburghshire:
Robert Davidson 40 occ Woollen H L W J
Isabel Davidson 35
John Davidson 13
Alexander Davidson 11
Robert Davidson 9
William Davidson 6
Peter Davidson 5
Isabel Davidson 3
Francis Vuylis 75
Isabella Brodie 17
So we need to see what happened to all of these people and what descendants they may have hed who might have been householders in 1901:
John b abt 1827 with son in 1901 No James.
Alexander b 1829 only on 1841 so far
Robert 1832 ditto
William 1835 on 1841 and 1851 so far
Peter 1836 ditto
Isabella 1838 ditto
Margaret 1842 not got every census but still single in 1891
Mary 1846 in 1851 and 1861 so far
James 1848 ditto
Alison 1850 still single in 1901
Catharine 1852 on 1861 and 1871 so far
Thomas Davidson got him up to 1891 so far
Andrew Davidson on 1861 and 1871 so far
Agnes Davidson dies in 1895
James was born 22-4-1894 at 5 Inglis CLose Selkirk....his mother registerd the birth.....she signed with an X....and was a domestic dervant.
So, we haven't actually linked the Agnes who died in 1895 with James b 1894 yet? I am uncomfortable with Agnes being 35 when she had this child (vast majority of illegitimate children being delivered to much younger women or to women who have had lots of other children already), combined with neither delivering it at her family home, nor out of town if her family didn't approve.
The most usual reason for not finding a child who was born illegitimately on the census is that his mother has subsequently married someone (not always the child's father) and they are all recorded under his name in the next census.
I'm not saying that is what happened here, just that anything is possible!
I know you said Agnes was dead by the time her son married, but how was that info expressed?
On James marriage certificate to Jeanie Brown on 30th September 1921 (Aidrie) it states - for father.....and Agnes Davidson domestic servant deceased.
Witnesses were Charles and Effie McGregor.
Thanks Ruthie.
Of course the Agnes we have found was a woollen winder up until 1891. I wonder if she would have changed to a domestic servant? (I'm still not comfortable!)
And what's your source for him being born in Selkirk, or was it that he had a one-off name, with all those forenames! (and I guess his dad's name is in there somewhere!)
He was always known as James Douglas Davidson....he married as that.....but his death certificate says his full name.
It is the right certificate because it says his mothers name Agnes....his wifes name Jeanie Brown....her fathers name RObert Brown......and was registered by James's son William.
And the marriage between James Davidson and Jeanie Brown is the only one for those names.
kiterunner
07-09-10, 12:38
Have you looked at the inventory on Scotland's People yet, Ruthie?
I don't have any credits.....nor any way of getting any tonight....I have to wait until my daughter can use her credit card.
I think it will probably turn out that you have the right Agnes Davidson, however uncomfortable I'm feeling about it, but if this was my tree I would definitely put this on the back burner until the 1911 census comes out for Scotland, in case something in that should give you further clues. I feel you just don't know quite enough yet to be certain and there's no point in spending time and money doing the wrong tree.
It's the worst possible scenario (for research) which happens a lot - you have a mother who you really know very little about, in the circumstances where she might be a long way from her usual home. Plus, at the moment at least, you don't have any way to pinpoint the mother and child together.
The Agnes who died in Selkirk in 1895 seems to be the only Agnes Davidson to have died there between 1894 and 1922, but that doesn't mean another Agnes who died somewhere else in Scotland isn't yours. You just need some little bit of luck to be able to say you are 100% sure what you have is correct.
Have you looked at the inventory on Scotland's People yet, Ruthie?
I hope that turns up something positive. (Not sure what things might get a mention)
I will keep on plodding along.....but I know it isn't verified yet.
Thank you for your help....I appreciate it.
I didn't even know my Grandfathers name until about 6 months ago......I had to get my own birth certificate for identification.......and on it my mothers birth date was out by 2 years.
So I bought Mum and Dad's marriage certificate to see how old Mum said she was on there.......and that is where I found my Grandfathers name.
Somewhere between her marriage to my fahter and her death my Mother appears to have lost 2 years on her age, and Dad never noticed.
and Dad never noticed.
lol!!
My grandmother knocked four years from her age and stuck with the lie from aged 25 (said she was 21) until she was 79 (said she was 75). Then she decided it might be quite nice to be 80, so she went straight from 75 to her 80th birthday. No one said a word! When she died, aged 91, we discovered her 80th birthday party had been held on her 81st bithday!
Okey Dokey.
I have 30 pound left with my researcher..........what would be the best thing to get her to look up?
kiterunner
07-09-10, 13:47
I would get her to look at the inventory if I were you - it might give the names of her next of kin, including a son if she had one. But of course you won't know if it is going to be any help or not until you or the researcher has had a look at it.
By the way, you don't use credits on Scotland's People to look at the wills and inventories, it is £5 for each one and you pay separately from the credits. Though of course it still wouldn't be easy for you to do that without a credit card! But I wouldn't want you buying credits that you don't need, so worth knowing.
Thanks for that....after the initial research I have paid for I intend to do the rest myself.........I just didn't know where to start.
kiterunner
07-09-10, 14:07
I forgot to say, if the inventory is for the right Agnes, it might say who was appointed guardian (or "tutor") to her son.
kiterunner
07-09-10, 15:04
Probably not him, but on the English 1901 census there is a James Davison age 6, birthplace not known, patient at City of Newcastle hospital for infectious diseases.
Thanks for that....after the initial research I have paid for I intend to do the rest myself.........I just didn't know where to start.
If you like, you can ask on here for tips on how or where to look for anything, or for us to confirm if something you have decided on looks likely etc etc. Unfortunately if you just say you are looking for something and want to do it yourself, you won't be able to stop us doing it for you (if we can) lol! This is because most of us are totally obsessed with family history on here :D
Margaret in Burton
07-09-10, 15:35
I would also suggest that you NEVER pay someone to do research for you until you have exhausted the brains on here.
My husband's cousin had a tree done in his surname a few years back. He was so proud of it and it cost a lot of money. We checked it. It was a load of rubbish, no deaths at all. Leaps of faith and total guesswork. Yes, there were some certs but we did it in more much detail.
Uncle John
07-09-10, 16:16
The most usual reason for not finding a child who was born illegitimately on the census is that his mother has subsequently married someone (not always the child's father) and they are all recorded under his name in the next census.
Jumping in, but I don't think this has been mentioned yet. For some illegitimate Scottish births, there is sometimes an entry in the RCE (Register of Corrected Entries) after an official enquiry to determine paternity.
Oooh, where do we find those UJ?
Oh, I see - from reading Scotlands People:
If a correction has been made to an official record this is indicated in the left hand margin of the certificate. The index page should tell you if a correction has been made and give you a link to it.
You can see an example of a correction here:
http://www.scotlandspeoplehub.gov.uk/research/register-of-corrected-entries.html
So, Ruthie, is there anything on the birth cert to suggest there might be anything in the Register of Corrections?
Because this child had been born at Selkirk, I consulted the relevant documentation at the National Archives of Scotland – a lengthy process unfortunately. There were 3 set of records, ie CH2/931/4, CH2/327/11 and CH2/1380. Despite a thorough search, however, there was no record of the birth of James or the naming of his father.
The above is from the researchers report...............my children paid for the research to be done for my birthday as they knew I had no idea how or where to resesarch for Scotland.
Just another question.
Is ther anyway of finding out if my father was in either the Merchant Navy or Army in Scotland before he came out here to Tasmania.
He said he got passage out here in some sort of exchange program for returned soldier......but he was also a bit of a fibber....so I never know if his stories were fact or fantasy.
He did have some medals but they were unnumbered in WW2 and could have been awarded for with Merchant Navy or Army.
I was hoping if he was in either (if at all) of them I could get a copy of his record.
Ruthie...I really can't help much. I did try to look for James in the 1901 census under every possible combination of names without luck.
The only thing I can suggest about the medals is to take them to your local RSL and ask. I did that with my grandfather's and found what they were for. Some of those old guys love doing that sort of thing and may well be able to tell you straight off.
I also had to get my own birth cert to start. Then my father's birth cert, etc. I still haven't found my mother's birth cert.........lol
I know she lived....lol.....there was no break up or anything.....she was just never born.....lol
Although I'm starting to wonder if she was born in Tassie.
Well I am more than happy to pay some help back....so if you want me to check anything for you in Tasmania I will have a go.
I did look the medals up on the internet....and it wasn't conclusive because the ones he has he could have received for either Merchant Navy or Army....and in WW2 the didn't appear to number or name them personally.
Thanks Ruthie.........
I don't know where to start, mainly because I really don't think her birth was registered. She went to school in Tassie and her younger brother was born there so I'm clutching at straws.
Do the Tas indexes go to 1928???
Forgot to say...it was in Ulverstone she went to school.
I'd still try the RSL.....
I am closer to Hobart....and the indexes here stop about 1900.....have you ever tried to order a birth certificate here for her?
It's a long story Ruthie...........but in a nutshell...
Her mother was running from an abusive husband and met my grandfather. They then took off from Qld and apparently Mum was born in Woolongong NSW. Then they went to Ulverstone sometime between then (1928) and 1935 when my uncle was born.
My uncle found his name on the old school roll when he went travelling down there. But instead of Bowler, it was Boland. So was Mum's. He then found his birth cert in Tassie under Boland as well. My grandfather was Bowler.....Grandma was Thompson (nee Kettley).
Earlier, when Mum wanted her birth cert, NSW told her there wasn't one and they "made up" one for her from stat decs, etc.
Now I wonder if there is one under Boland, but I have to prove I'm her daughter to get it as it's after 1909. I can prove I'm J.......Bowler's daughter, but i have that dodgy cert....lol
I rang them and explained but it all seemed too mush trouble for them. I tried for her baptism cert (strangely after all that living in sin, etc...lol) the kids were brought up Catholic. Grandad as Catholic. The archivist at Woolongong went through all their records for me for the entire diocese and nothing for MUm under any combination of names from 1927 (just in case) till 1935 when i knew they were in Tassie.
Now.................can I offer you a panadol????? lol
No panadol necessary....I personaly come from a family where I have a natural mother....adoptive mother....step mother....father...natural father....and the mix of siblings that that combination brings.
It looks like you have covered all options.......so I haven't any clever suggestions.
But my offer still stands if you need me to check anything in Tasmania for you.
kiterunner
08-09-10, 07:27
They have a list of merchant seamen who received WW2 medals on TNA:
WW2 Merchant Seaman medals (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=12&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1)
If you search for James Davidson it comes back with 14 matches but none have a birthdate of 1922. There are two with no birth date shown (it just says 1946-2000 for the date), one is James Leonard Davidson but the other just James Davidson, so it could be him. I'm not sure whether looking at the image is going to help you work out if it is him or not; it would tell you which medals were issued so you could see if it is the same ones but I imagine they are just the standard ones? Anyway, this link will tell you what you can expect to see if you pay to view it:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/seamens-medals.asp
As for army records, I don't think you would be able to order his (possible) records from the army if you don't know what regiment he was in, but hopefully someone else on here knows more about that.
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