Gt Grandfather

[Rosie]

Hello,
I am new to this forum and have just found out how to post a new thread.
I need help tracing my Gt Grandfather's birth or baptism record.
On the 1881 Census he is Dominick Scandlan born 1852 in Liverpool.
On the 1891 Census he is Dominick Scanlan born 1846 in Dublin.
He married Mary Kelly in 1882 in Liverpool and they lived in the Vauxhall area.
(Bond street & Sylvester St) among others. I cannot go any further back on my family tree until I can find out his Father's first name & his Mother's maiden name.
They are not listed on any Census before 1881.
Thanking you.
Patsy.

[kiterunner]

Welcome to the forum, Patsy.

It seems to me that the best thing for you to do next is to order a copy of Dominick and Mary's marriage certificate, as that should tell you the name and occupation of Dominick's father. Then if we can find a likely birth registration or baptism for him, we will have some way of checking if it is the right one. Also you will get the names of the marriage witnesses, who may or may not be related to Dominick or Mary.

[kiterunner]

Also, I see that Dominick and Mary got married a long time after Dominick junior was born, so is it possible that Dominick was married previously? Again, the marriage certificate will tell you if he was a widower or bachelor. Let us know if you need help finding out how to order it.

This is the 1901 census entry for Dominick and Mary (surname transcribed as Scanton on ancestry):
50 Cherry Lane, Liverpool
Dominick Scanlon Head M 56 Dock Labourer Ireland
Mary Do Wife M 54 Do

Then Dominick Scanlon's death was registered Apr-Jun 1907 Liverpool, age 63. So it looks likely that he was born about 1844.

There is a Mary Scanlon baptised 7 July 1861 at Sligo, Ireland, parents Dominick Scanlon and Mary Kelly, and an Anne Scanlon born 2 Sep 1864 and baptised 4 Sep 1864 Ballymote, Sligo, Ireland, same parents' names. I wonder whether this is the same couple or not? Of course Mary Kelly is a very common name so it could be a coincidence.

[Rosie]

Hello KiteRunner,
Thank you so much for your reply, firstly I have made a mistake as I have Dominick & Mary Kelly's wedding certificate so I do know his father's name, it is Dominick (again) and the witnesses were William Flaherty & Esther Monaghan. Dominick was down as a bachelor & Mary a spinster.
I didn't know about a Mary Scanlon born 1861 in Sligo and I didn't know that they lived in Cherry Lane in 1901 as it seems a long way from the Scotland Road area that I thought that they always lived in.
I did know about Anne Scanlon born 1864 in Sligo but no more information about her.
I sent for a marriage certificate for a Dominick Scanlon & Catherine Cesnan married in Sligo in 1838 but no information on it except for their names and I am only guessing that this is my Dominick & Catherine who may be Dominicks Father and Mother (but maybe not). I think I got this information from the Mormon site.
Thank you once again for repling, I have been looking for years for this.
Patsy.

[kiterunner]

If you have an ancestry subscription or free trial, if you search on the family trees on there for Dominic Scanlan with wife Mary Kelly, there is someone who has them on a public tree and they show his parents as Dominic Scanlan and Catherine Cesnan who married 30 Jul 1838 at Boyle, Roscommon, Ireland, but of course we don't know what evidence they have. (It is the Dominic who lived in Liverpool, no mention of Sligo).

Or if you have a paid membership of Genes Reunited, there is someone on there who has Dominic Scanlon born 1846 Liverpool in their tree, so you could contact them for more info.

[kiterunner]

Sorry, I spent ages typing that while I was looking at sites, so I didn't see your reply before posting!

Does the Dominick Scanlon / Mary Kelly marriage certificate state Dominic's father's occupation?

[Rosie]

Hello KiteRunner,
Dominicks father was down as a labourer and must have been alive in 1882 as it dosen't say deceased as it does on his wife Mary Kelly's father.
I am not on Ancestry but I am on Genes and the other people on these sites who have Dominick & Mary in their trees are related to me.
Thank you once again for your trouble.
Patsy.

[Joan of Archives]

Patsy just because it doesn't say the father was deceased doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't unfortunately :rolleyes: One of my ancestor's sons both put their father's name on the marriage certificate with no indication he had been deceased at least 15 years lol!

[Fi aka Wheelie Spice]

Rosie, I glad you found this site. People are very helpful here. Welcome to GF!

[kiterunner]

You could order the birth certificate of Anne Scanlon born 1864 from the Irish GRO to see if it gives any clue as to whether her parents are the same Dominic and Mary as your ancestors.

Also, when I went back on the pilot FamilySearch Record Search site to check that there was a civil registration for her, I came across a couple of baptisms in County Durham with parents' names Dominic Scanlan and Mary Kelly:
John Scanlan born 5 Sep 1867 baptised 15 Sep 1867 St Michael, Houghton-le-Spring, Durham
Catherine Scanlan born 27 Jun 1869 baptised 10 Jul 1869 same place, same parents.

Now I'm having trouble finding these people on the 1871 census, although of course the children could have died in infancy. Can anyone else find them or find their deaths, please?

[Rosie]

Hello KiteRunner,
Thanks again, I don't know anything about Durham, never heard it mentioned before.
Anne Scanlon's parents were Dominick & Mary Kelly, I got this from an Irish site (I think) will the birth certificate have more information on it? but thanks again.

Also thanks to Wheelie Spice for the welcome and to Joan of Archives for your reply, as I don't know when Dominick was born I can't work out how old he would have been at his son's wedding in 1882. It all rests on finding Dominick's (the son) his birth records.

Thanks again to all.
Patsy.

[kiterunner]

as I don't know when Dominick was born I can't work out how old he would have been at his son's wedding in 1882. It all rests on finding Dominick's (the son) his birth records.


I had to think about that one a few times! There are three Dominicks, aren't there? One born about 1844, probably in Ireland, also his father, and also his son, born in Liverpool 1871. If you mean getting the birth certificate of Dominick III who was born in Liverpool 1871, you can order it from the GRO, but if you mean a birth record for Dominick II born in Ireland in 1844, that was before they started civil registration over there so you would be looking for a baptism, but a lot of Irish baptism records haven't survived so I'm sorry to say it may never turn up.

You could order a copy of Anne Scanlon's birth certificate from the GRO Ireland:
http://www.groireland.ie/
Yes, it would have more information on it than the IGI record does, for instance it might have a more specific address for the family, and also it will give her father's occupation, which might help, though I suppose most likely it will be Labourer.

[Rosie]

Hello KiteRunner,

Thanks for that, it is Dominick 2 that I need a baptism or birth record for so that I can find out his mother's maiden name.
I will send for Anne's birth certificate and wouldn't it be great if she is Dominick 2s sister and I would find out their mother's name that way.
Thanks a lot for all your help.
Patsy.

[kiterunner]

I thought Anne was Dominick 2's daughter?

[Merry]

I've searched and searched for Dominick and Mary in 1871 without success.

I can't help wondering if there is a connection between them and Charles and Ann Scanlon who are in Houghton le Spring and are having children there around the same time those two baptisms took place for children of Dominick and Mary? (Chas and Ann had a dau called Catherine the year before Dominick and Mary did)

[kiterunner]

Not sure whether there is a connection or not. Charles' birthplace on the 1861 census is Roscommon, Ireland (born about 1834).

[JayG]

You could order the birth certificate of Anne Scanlon born 1864 from the Irish GRO to see if it gives any clue as to whether her parents are the same Dominic and Mary as your ancestors.

Also, when I went back on the pilot FamilySearch Record Search site to check that there was a civil registration for her, I came across a couple of baptisms in County Durham with parents' names Dominic Scanlan and Mary Kelly:
John Scanlan born 5 Sep 1867 baptised 15 Sep 1867 St Michael, Houghton-le-Spring, Durham
Catherine Scanlan born 27 Jun 1869 baptised 10 Jul 1869 same place, same parents.

Now I'm having trouble finding these people on the 1871 census, although of course the children could have died in infancy. Can anyone else find them or find their deaths, please?

Those 2 kids, along with an Ann aged 4 & parents Dominick 35 & Mary 30 appear on a New York passenger list for 1870.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, well spotted, Jay! Looking at the 1900 US census, there is a Dominic Scanlan age 59 born Ireland, who immigrated to the US in 1870, with wife Mary. They got married in 1861.

So, Anne Scanlon born Sligo, Ireland in 1864 belongs to that family, and so do John and Catherine born Houghton-le-Spring. That's saved you ordering that Irish certificate, Patsy! (Er, assuming you haven't already ordered it? Hope not!)

So at least we have ruled all those out, but it leaves us still not having found where in Ireland your Dominic was born. I did try looking for the marriage witnesses William Flaherty and Esther Monaghan but it got me nowhere, sorry.

[Kit]

Nothing useful to add but popped in to say welcome to Rosie. :)

[Merry]

Oh, that's good about the emigrating couple.

What's the chances they (ie Dominick 1844 and Mary) arived in Liverpool from Ireland after the 1871 census and before the bith of their son Dominick and hadn't had time to get married at that point?

[garstonite]

Hello KiteRunner,
Thank you so much for your reply, firstly I have made a mistake as I have Dominick & Mary Kelly's wedding certificate so I do know his father's name, it is Dominick (again) and the witnesses were William Flaherty & Esther Monaghan. Dominick was down as a bachelor & Mary a spinster.
I didn't know about a Mary Scanlon born 1861 in Sligo and I didn't know that they lived in Cherry Lane in 1901 as it seems a long way from the Scotland Road area that I thought that they always lived in.
I did know about Anne Scanlon born 1864 in Sligo but no more information about her.
I sent for a marriage certificate for a Dominick Scanlon & Catherine Cesnan married in Sligo in 1838 but no information on it except for their names and I am only guessing that this is my Dominick & Catherine who may be Dominicks Father and Mother (but maybe not). I think I got this information from the Mormon site.
Thank you once again for repling, I have been looking for years for this.
Patsy.

Hiya Patsy, and welcome to GF..you seem to know your districts of Liverpool, but can I point out that Vauxhall rd area / Scotland Rd(Sylvester St) to Cherry Lane...at the most is 4 miles..and don`t forget in 1890`s with a lot less traffic would have been quite easy to get to the Docks where Dominick worked..What is a little puzzling is how a docker could afford a place in Cherry Lane ?...Cherry Lane is off Townsend Lane just by the Railway Bridge which had a Huge Coal Depot when I was a boy. these coal trains were 50 wagons long and were taken to Canada Dock or Alexander Dock as late as 1980...so maybe Dominick was an overseer for one of those docks that handled Coal ....but Cherry Lane ?..quite posh then....allan

[kiterunner]

The 1901 census page with Dominick and Mary on is full of dock labourers, and so is the rest of Cherry Lane. Dominick and Mary didn't have a whole house to themselves; they had one room in a house with another family who had the other 2 rooms.

[garstonite]

Thanks Kiterunner...
the whole street was probably owned by The Mersey Docks and Harbour Board.
I thought it a little surprising...nice big houses...but...the thought of so many families in one house ?....frightening....allan:)

[Rosie]

Hello,
My thanks to KiteRunner, Merry, Kit, & Garstonite for all your replies. This is really a mystery and you can see how I have been searching for years to find the birth of Dominick 2. KiteRunner, I haven't sent for the birth certificate for Anne yet, I was waiting until the weekend so that was lucky. Interesting about Cherry Lane and it must have been a room because I think that they were very poor.

What has struck me as strange is that Dominick 2 & Mary Kelly only had 1 child and I can't find any more siblings for Dominick 2. Being Catholic and in those days there were usually big families. Dominck 3 had 11 children. Mystery.

Thanks to all,
Patsy.

[ElizabethHerts]

For the record, there is this marriage:

Groom's Name: Dominic Scanlon
Groom's Birth Date: 1872
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 25
Bride's Name: Mary Ellen Manley
Bride's Birth Date: 1878
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 19
Marriage Date: 06 Apr 1897
Marriage Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name: Dominic Scanlon
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: Joseph Manley
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00776-0
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1656690
Reference Number: it 3, p 8, no 15
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

[garstonite]

Elizabeth...please edjumicate me...that marriage is not on
freebmd
lancsbmd
lan-opc
so where did you find it please ?.....thanx ....allan:)

[Margaret in Burton]

I would think with that detail it's on Family Search Record Search

http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html?datestamp=1201203282703#p=0

[garstonite]

Thanks Marg...should have guessed that shouldn`t I....silly old custard....allan:o

[Merry]

Maybe I'm being dim, but how do we know Mary Kelly's surname if the birth cert for her son Dominick (1871) hasn't been purchased?

[Rosie]

Thanks again for all your help. Merry, I have the birth certificate for Dominick b 1871 it is his father's birth certificate that I can't find.

ElizabethHerts, Thank you so much but I already have these details, it is this Dominick's father's birth or baptism records that I cannot find, but thanks everybody.
Patsy.