Help please. Struggling to move back

[samesizedfeet]

This is related to an earlier thread I have here: http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=5823

but I am now looking at the Goodman family my which great grandmother married in to.

I got the birth certificate this morning for her son:

Arthur William Harry Goodman born 27 Jan 1919 at "The Harts Horns" South Mimms, Barnet UD, Hertfordshire, son of William George Goodman and Olive nee Fenton.

William George is a licensed victualler so I'm making the assumption The Harts Horns if a pub.


There is a probate index entry from 1913 as follows:

Henry Goodman
of The Harts Horns High Street High Barnet Hertfordshire died 19 Jan 1913
Probate London 31 January to William George Goodman innkeeper and Sarah Annie Goodman widow
effects £191 4s


I've searched 1911 for Henry Goodman with a Sarah and also for The Harts Horns and it doesn't appear to be there. Henry could be father or brother or cousin or anything as probate doesn't give his relationship.

Can anyone else see them in 1911?

Z

[Jackie H]

I haven't got paid access to 1911 but I've managed to find out that there is "The Hartshorne" listed in Barnet. There don't seem to be any Goodman's there though.

The Henry Goodman that died in Barnet in 1913 was 58 according to FreeBMD

[samesizedfeet]

Cheers Jackie

Calling it a night now. Will check out Hartshorne in morning

[Merry]

Discovering from the other thread that Wm Geo Goodman should have been born about 1878 hasn't helped one bit! I guess it's likely he was previously married if he didn't marry Olive until 1917.

[Merry]

Am working on this family at the mo. Henry's age is right and so is Wm's and there's a birth reg I've put under....

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=SRYRG12_602_604-0462&fn=William&ln=Goodman&st=d&ssrc=&pid=18313184

Births Sep 1879
Goodman William George London C. 1c 1

All guesswork though!

[Merry]

Ah forget all of that as I didn't read further on the other thread to see that wasn't the right death for Wm Geo! lol

I have to go now, sorry.

[Merry]

Please just get the marriage cert for Wm and Olive!!!!!!!!!!!

[Merry]

On the other thread you say you are getting a 1957 death cert for Olive. Is that the one in St Pancras?

[anne fraser]

The 1881 census lists the Harts Horn Inn High Street South Mimms Barnett:
http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:Barnet_Registration_District ,_1881_Census_Street_Index_G-I
If he was a licensed victualler the local record office should have a copy of the license.

The Harts Horn seems to have had a lot of competition and seems to have lost its licence in 1927:http://www.barnet4u.co.uk/Barnet%20History/earlyyears.html
I womder if you could find a local newspaper?

[samesizedfeet]

marriage certificate for Olive and William was ordered same day as this birth certificate so hopefully it will arrive Monday. I'm just trying to get ahead of myself. Although I'm not sure that the marriage certificate is going to get me much further as it will just give me a father's name and it's pretty likely that that's going to be Henry.

I spent a while playing around with that Newport Pagnell family and couldn't prove or disprove them enough.

Anne - Barnet has a local museum which I used when trying to find info on Olive's first husband - I shall drop them a line and see if they can help. If nothing else they have a complete run of street directories which will give me an idea when the Goodmans appeared/left.

Thanks for trying to help everyone.

[kiterunner]

You could always get a copy of Henry Goodman's will, I suppose?

[Merry]

I spent a while playing around with that Newport Pagnell family and couldn't prove or disprove them enough.


They are in Grimsby in 1911 which seems an unlikely place to go to South Mimms from! Anyway, I doubt your William George was as old as their son.

[Merry]

Oooh, ignore my last post!! I think maybe Henry/Harry in Grimsby may well be the person who was in Barnet in 1913 and has son Wm Geo born City in 1879.

Here's why.....(could be a fluke I guess, but maybe not....)

In 1911 (and 1901!) Wm George has a brother named Tom b 1894 in Poplar. Sadly, Tom died in 1917 in WW1 and here's his entry from ANcestry's UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919:

Name: Tom Goodman
Birth Place: Poplar, London
Residence: Barnet, Herts <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< :)
Death Date: 1 Dec 1917
Death Location: France & Flanders
Enlistment Location: London
Rank: Private
Regiment: Household Cavalry and Cavalry of the Line (incl. Yeomanry and Imperial Camel Corps)
Battalion: 6th Dragoons (Inniskilling)
Number: 13206
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

So, does that mean the deaths Mary found in New Zealand (on the other thread) are more likely to be the right ones (given Wm George's age fits) even if Olive's dob is wrong?

[Merry]

And the final bit.....

Henry's wife is Annie in 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911. Her maiden name was Peters as she and Henry are with her parents in 1881:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=LNDRG11_368_372-0454&fn=Henry&ln=Goodman&st=d&ssrc=&pid=14837643

She was Annie at marriage too:

Marriages Jun 1878
Arkell Jane Whitechapel 1c 683
Goodman Henry Whitechapel 1c 683
PETERS Annie Whitechapel 1c 683
THOMAS William Whitechapel 1c 683

but back in 1861 she is with her parents, William and Jane, and is listed as Sarah Ann :D:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=MDXRG9_210_214-0583&fn=William&ln=Peters&st=d&ssrc=&pid=5426290

[samesizedfeet]

Merry - You are a godsend!!

I'm not sure about the Australian stuff now. I kind of convinced myself that Olive hadn't gone and the original informant for that (a 2nd cousin from the Linkson side all of whom fell out with Olive) had got confused because son Arthur had twins who moved to Australia.

I have a death cert for an Olive M Goodman in St Pancras in 1957 on the way. Age matches up quite well.

This would all have been so much simpler if the GRO had sent all my certificates together.

[Merry]

I have a death cert for an Olive M Goodman in St Pancras in 1957 on the way. Age matches up quite well.


At least you should know, one way or the other, when it arrives.

[samesizedfeet]

Of course if she did die in Australia in 1978 then my new contact should remember her and possibly even have a photo of her.


*taps fingers impatiently waiting for reply*

[Merry]

I can't tap mine too as I still have them crossed from one of your earlier threads :rolleyes:

[samesizedfeet]

Certificates have arrived!!!

The death in St Pancras in 1957 is definitely Olive as the informant is her daughter. Unfortunately the daughter isn't sure if William is alive or dead as she is down as "wife or widow of William Goodman, a publican". Address at death is same as the daughters.

Marriage cert:

28 Jan 1918
William George Goodman, 38, widower, licensed victualler, son of Henry Goodman (deceased, Licensed Victualler
His address is Harts Horns, High Street, Barnet.

Witnesses are:
Florence S Fenton (Olive's mother)
Dorothy Dommett (Olive's sister)
James Morgan (don't know)

[kiterunner]

There's a James Morgan / Annie Caroline Goodman marriage 11 Apr 1903 at All Saints, Newington / Walworth, Southwark. James Morgan age 43, bachelor, musician, 43 Faraday Street, father James Morgan deceased, army pensioner; Annie Caroline Goodman age 21, spinster, 21 Maurd(?) Street, father is Henry Goodman but he is a foreman builder. Witnesses William Clayton and Helena Clayton.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, and there is an Annie jr of just the right age on the 1891 census with the family that Merry found.

[Merry]

Oooh, so Wm Geo was a widower, but he was single in 1911, so:

Marriages Dec 1915
Abbott James H Fish Barnet 3a 1130
Fish Rose Abbott Barnet 3a 1130
Goodman William G Reymolds Barnet 3a 1130
Goodman William G Reymolds Barnet 3a 1130
Reynolds Ada E Goodman Barnet 3a 1130

Deaths Mar 1917
Goodman Ada E 26 Barnet 3a 535

and I wonder if this is Henry's wife, and whoever registered forgot she was Sarah Ann?

Deaths Jun 1915
Goodman Annie 59 Barnet 3a 417

[kiterunner]

I've got a Sarah Ann in my tree who was known as Annie and misses off the Sarah on various certificates, so it sounds quite possible.

[Merry]

I'm trying to stop myself from imagining that Wm Geo and Olive May separated, and he went down under taking another woman pretending to be Olive May with him and he and the imposter died there, hence the death regs that Mary found! *slaps self* lol

[samesizedfeet]

Just popping in whilst on 5 min break at work. Should calm down soon and I'll sneak back and look at it all properly. The Goodman/Morgan marriage looks promising :)

Thanks to all

See you in a bit

[samesizedfeet]

Okay - so I spent the past hour playing around with everything and it all looks spot on to me. The Morgans and Tom's death have helped convince me that it's the right family.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to get up to Barnet soon and see what I can find out about the Harts Horns and trace it in the directories for clues to when William George Goodman may have died.

Thank you so much for all your help everyone. I was noticably absent with work getting in the way. Although I doubt I would have worked it out on my own given all the time in teh world.