Who is Janet?

[Merry]

BK6 updated from this thread

Richard Devonshire Buck was b 1857 in Liverpool

Until the 1881 census he was living with his parents, James and Sarah. In 1881 he was a commercial clerk living at Edge Lane, West Derby and in 1891 he was boarding at Windsor Road, West Derby and was a merchant's clerk. I then have his death in 1892 in West Derby district.

I presumed he was a bachelor when he died, however:

National Probate Calendar:

Buck, Richard Devonshire of Sandringham Road, Tuebrook near Liverpool, bookkeeper, died 11th Sept 1892. Administration Liverpool 18th Nov to Janet Buck widow. Effects £47 14s 5d

So, who is Janet and what happened to her?

[Joy Dean]

Can't find a marriage for them; so, a sister-in-law? or cousin?

[Merry]

So you mean because it doesn't say 'the relict' it means she isn't his widow, just that's her status? Hmmm.....I hadn't looked at it that way! I shall have to investiage that then - thanks!

I thought if you died in Lancs without a will all your money got taken (by whom I'm not sure, but OC said so!!) - so I wonder who got the £47?!!

[Joy Dean]

Exactly - if you look for my great-grandfather, Luke Sadd, you will see that probate was granted to Ada Rogers widow - well, she is my great-aunt and she was widowed, she was not his widow :)

[Merry]

Well, he had one half brother, Wellington William Buck, who died in 1871 unmarried and one full brother, James Ashton Buck who shows as unmarried on every census up to his death in 1907.

Richard D was second generation born in Lancs. He had two uncles, Joseph Wellington Buck who died unmarried and Richard who would have had a widow in 1892, but her name was Felicia.

All the rest of his family were back in Dorset and his twig had gone to Lancs in about 1820, so quite a long time before.

I can't see any likely Janet Bucks in 1891 or 1901.....Hmmmm....

I wonder if someone was willing to swear she was his widow when they hadn't actually got the bit of paper? Would you have to provide a marriage cert I wonder?

[kiterunner]

There is a Janet Buck marriage to William Stanley Nicholls at St Augustine, Everton (W Derby district) in 1897, but there aren't any alternative surnames listed for her on Lancashire BMD which you might expect if she had been married before. I suppose it could be her, though.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, but hold on, on FamilySearch Record Search it gives her father's name as William Henry Goodsir, and her age as 30. William Stanley Nicholls is 27. It doesn't give previous marital status.

[kiterunner]

The 1901 census has her birthplace as Bridlington, Yorkshire, and they have a daughter Lilian age 7 and son Sidney age 2 both born Liverpool.

[kiterunner]

So, in 1891 she must be Janet Goodier (yes, I thought that "Goodsir" must be a mistranscription!) who is unmarried stepdaughter of Edward M Fawcett in West Derby. Edward's wife is Catharine. I can't see a Janet Goodier marriage to a Buck but of course they may have married abroad or their marriage never made it to the indexes.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, she would have to provide a marriage cert to admon his estate as his widow.

(Intestate estates in Lancashire go to the Duchy of Lancaster and not to the government. The Duchy used to have some greedy rules about how much they took, but it appears they have now come into line with the accepted national practice for intestate estates and who inherits how much.)

OC

EDIT - Sorry, I meant she would have to provide her MC to BENEFIT from her husband's estate. Anyone can apply to be an administrator.

[Merry]

Yes, good point, OC!

Ooooh, thanks Kate! That's brilliant! At least I know who she is now. :)

And the child, Lilian, would seem to be my relative:

Births Jun 1893
Buck Lilian W. Derby 8b 628

Which is great as this line of my tree didn't go in for marriage and children so was in danger of dying out!

I wonder what happened to Janet and Lilian?

[Merry]

Oooh, she is listed as Lilian Buck, stepdaughter, in 1911!

[Merry]

William Stanley Nicholls was also of Sandringham Road Tuebrook when he died in 1937.

Son, Sydney Vernon Nicholls, seems to have married in West Derby district and died in Liverpool.



William and Janet's other son, Edward Stanley, died in 1912 in West Derby district.

I can't see a death for Janet, or a sensible marriage/death for Lilian. :(

[Merry]

So, in 1891 she must be Janet Goodier (yes, I thought that "Goodsir" must be a mistranscription!)

I would definitely have agreed with you, but :eek::

Name: Janet Goodsir
Year of Registration: 1866
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Bridlington (1837-1937)
County: Yorkshire - East Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 300

I was just trying to be certain about her age before having another look for her death.

[Merry]

Hmmm, this is pobably Janet's death (missed it before!) as she did say she was 40 in 1911:

Deaths Mar 1916
Nichols Janet 46 W.Derby 8b 646

But it's Lilian I really need to find!

[maggie_4_7]

There is a Lillian Buck marrying in Bridlington seeing as her mother had died and probably the only living blood may have been in Bridlington where her mother was born I suppose it could be! Unfortunately there's a few Lillian Bucks getting married over the right period this one just stood out for me because of Bridlington!

Lillian Buck
Spouse Surname: Hylton
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1916
Registration district: Bridlington
Registration county (inferred): Yorkshire - East Riding
Volume Number: 2d
Page Number: 657

Edit to say: seeing as she's using Buck in 1911 that's probably what she married in and if you find her marriage you'll find her real father I expect she put his name Buck! Just have to find the right marriage :)

[Merry]

Thanks very much Maggie - that seems reasonable, doesn't it. I looked for a death for a Lil* Hylton, hoping I could match up her age, but there isn't anything sensible. I'll keep looking........

[maggie_4_7]

Merry

There's a tree on Ancestry with Janet Goodsir born in 1866 to Thomas Henry Goodsir and Catherine Horsley marrying William Stanley Nicholls it's public:-

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/2910374/person/-1130148607?ssrc=

They have Lillian as a Nicholls. They don't have much on Lillian but...

[Merry]

Thanks Maggie!

I see Richard Edward W Hylton didn't die either so maybe they emigrated?!!

There's a Hylton/Buck birth reg in 1919 but it's in Norfolk.........hmmmmm...

[Merry]

There's a tree stating:

Richard Edward Walter Hylton (b. 6/10/1877, d. 22/1/1956)


and says he married a 'Lillian'! Says there were two children, the one on FreeBMD and another one (they could be alive)

Ah, found his death reg now as Ricard E W Hylton! He was b in Worthing, Sussex and died in Norwich district.

I'm still not having much luck with Lil(l)ian :mad:

[maggie_4_7]

I think your only avenue is electoral registers for the future and get that Lilian Buck birth cert and then the Bridlington marriage cert to see father so at least you'll know if you're chasing the right Lilian! - are you expecting it to be Richard because looking at the numbers Lilian Buck born/registered June qtr 1893 Richard died Sep 1892 it's just 9 months pretty much!!! It's close its possible but its close :)

My great grandfather was born Feb 1849 his father died Dec 1848 so okay. That timeframe is well close.

[Merry]

The trouble is, if the child was registered in Q2 1892 then Janet is probably going to have said the father was Richard whoever the biological father was! lol Don't forget the child could have been born as early as late Feb 1892 and still beeen registered in Q2, so that makes it sound less impossible for Lilian to have been Richard's! Maybe his cause of death might throw some light - was he up to the job????!!!!

I'll probably have to let it go, unless I can find anyone actively researching who is descended from a closer bit of this family and who is willing to fork out, or knows what's what about Lilian. Having spent a few mega-fortunes this summer hols (not on FH unfortunately) I can't go spending another £9 or £18 or £27 on such a distant twig! If Lilian is Richard's daughter then she would be my 4th cousin twice removed!

[maggie_4_7]

ahhh see when my curiosity becomes ignited money is no object to me to satisfy it :)

;)

[Merry]

ahhh see when my curiosity becomes ignited money is no object to me to satisfy it :)

;)

So........are you going to pay? pmsl!!

[maggie_4_7]

You know I just might :p

[maggie_4_7]

Oh by the way didn't you say Lillian was born 1893 back there not 1892! I haven't looked at the registration I was just looking at your post.

So was it 1892 or 1893?

[Merry]

Sorry,

Births Jun 1893
Buck Lilian W. Derby 8b 628

and Richard died 11th Sept 1892.

[Merry]

You know I just might :p

:p:p:p:p

[maggie_4_7]

:p:p:p:p

:p :p

[Merry]

Just adding latest info to this thread in case anyone should ever google and come across it.

Thanks to new databases on Ancestry I now have further info re Richard D Buck.

He married Janet Goodsir, dau of Thomas Henry Goodsir at Rushen on the Isle of Man on 2nd August 1892 (Isle of Man, Marriage Index, 1606-1984)

Richard died 11th Sept 1892, so they were only married a few weeks.

Their dau, Lilian Buck was born 18th May 1893 and baptised 10th June 1893 at St James, West Derby (Liverpool, England, Baptisms, 1813-1906)

I think Lilian married William F Higgins in 1934 in West Derby District. There's a death for a Lilian Higgins in St Asaph Denbighshire in 1974 with the correct date of birth. Looks like just one child for William and Lilian Higgins which seems right given Lilian's age at marriage.

I can't work out which William F Higgins is her husband though.

[garstonite]

Sorry - I am a bit confused ...Janet Buck - widow who married in 1897 - her father was a Surgeon named William Henry Goodsir

Marriage: 24 Sep 1897 St Augustine, Everton, Lancashire, England
William Stanley Nicholls - 27, Team Owner, Bachelor, 82 Haigh St.
Janet Buck - 30, Widow, 11 Sandringham Road
Groom's Father: William Giddings Nicholls, Deceased, Railway Agent
Bride's Father: William Henry Goodsir, Deceased, Surgeon
Witness: Henry Eve; Caroline Edith Nicholls
Married by Banns by: George W. Williams
so the Isle of Man marriage - father Thomas Henry Goodsir ??...do we have 2 Janet Goodsir marrying a Buck ??
you know I take time to take things in ...lol

[Merry]

I think she just gave her father's details incorrectly when she married the second time. I know it's not a mistranscription as the image is on Ancestry. Her father was Thomas Henry rather than William Henry when he married Janet's mother, but I haven't found his death and there's no census with him with his family. I'm 100% sure Janet is the same person both times!