View Full Version : OH's Gramps ~ was he ever born ?
We’ve been stuck from the word ‘go’ and can’t think how to make any headway with this one so any suggestions would be useful ……
OH prefers it if I don’t use his family name, so Gramps or John Brown will have to do and although OH knew him quite well, it turns out that he knew precious little about his life !
This is the info :-
According to his death reg (1970s) he was born in Sept 1898 but we have no idea where.
First marriage was to Granny (1920) and the cert has his age as 22 and his father as Herbert Edwin, deceased. This would make his YOB 1897.
He lived in Yorks, Scotland, Surrey and Hants. and travelled to the USA quite often on business (Director of The Nat. Coal Board) which presumably means he had a birth cert and a passport. The Nat Coal Board was set up in 1946 but we know he was in the States for 3 months in 1943.
In WW1 he served in all 3 services.
Wounded twice (invalided out) so re-enlisted in something different but we don’t know in which order and the Navy could well have been the Merchant Navy.
After WW1 he went to Sheffield University ~ Electrical Engineering ~ and was something to do with mining (Inspector of Mines ?) which means he worked for the Board of Trade.
I’ve searched the censuses but there’s no Herbert Brown with son named John Brown.
I’ve searched the birth regs, found a few John Browns and made contact with people on GR who have them in their trees ~ nobody has ours.
I also tried Scotlandspeople and Ancestry's WW1 stuff with no luck.
Perhaps he was born elsewhere, perhaps he changed his name ?
Whatever it is, we remain stuck
ElizabethHerts
18-08-10, 09:13
Rachel, do you have any WWI records for him?
kiterunner
18-08-10, 09:31
Have you tried looking for a will or administration for Herbert Edwin?
Rachel, do you have any WWI records for him?
There's nothing on Ancestry, Elizabeth
Have you tried looking for a will or administration for Herbert Edwin?
No ;( but where would I look ?
I have no info apart from his name and that he was said to be deceased at the time of the marriage
kiterunner
18-08-10, 09:49
Well, you could look on the National Probate Calendar on ancestry, couldn't you? Or are there too many with that name dying between 1897 and 1920? It's hard to give advice without knowing the actual name.
Well, you could look on the National Probate Calendar on ancestry, couldn't you? Or are there too many with that name dying between 1897 and 1920? It's hard to give advice without knowing the actual name.
Thanks Kate
At the moment I don't have Ancestry so will start making a list
ElizabethHerts
18-08-10, 09:52
Well, you could look on the National Probate Calendar on ancestry, couldn't you? Or are there too many with that name dying between 1897 and 1920? It's hard to give advice without knowing the actual name.
Ditto for births and marriages - I tried looking for marriages of a Herbert Edwin before 1897 but gave up becuase there were so many!
Ditto for births and marriages - I tried looking for marriages of a Herbert Edwin before 1897 but gave up becuase there were so many!
The problem is that there are no births/marriages for Herbert Edwins and although there are a number of marriages for Herberts I've no way of telling which one it is as I can not find Gramps on 1901/1911 censuses.
kiterunner
18-08-10, 10:13
If you want help, Rachel, you could PM me the real names.
If you want help, Rachel, you could PM me the real names.
Thank you Kate ~ will email 'his majesty' ! :D
I'm looking at the 1911 census again searching with Herbert's possible wife's name .... hmph
Rosie Knees
18-08-10, 11:24
The problem is that there are no births/marriages for Herbert Edwins and although there are a number of marriages for Herberts I've no way of telling which one it is as I can not find Gramps on 1901/1911 censuses.
Don't want to teach granny to suck eggs lol, but have you tried Edwin Herbert Gramps?
Don't want to teach granny to suck eggs lol, but have you tried Edwin Herbert Gramps?
Can't actually remember but will look now :)
According to his death reg (1970s) he was born in Sept 1898 but we have no idea where.
More sucking eggs, but have you got the death cert? That ought to show a place of birth (guessed at, or known by the informant!)
I agree with Kate, it's almost impossible to advise without knowing the names involved.
Presumably the marriage witnesses are no help?
Having said that about not knowing the surname, I have found that bandying about OH's grandfather's name (we are in the same position as you except that he disowned his family and therefore didn't give his father's name on marriage) hasn't made any difference to getting a result! lol We have been looking for about 25 years or so now.
Having said that about not knowing the surname, I have found that bandying about OH's grandfather's name (we are in the same position as you except that he disowned his family and therefore didn't give his father's name on marriage) hasn't made any difference to getting a result! lol We have been looking for about 25 years or so now.
Quite right :( the witnesses are no help
We don't have the death cert ... hmmmmm the informant was probably his 2nd wife or maybe her son
Oh pooooo :rolleyes:
Quite right :( the witnesses are no help
We don't have the death cert ... hmmmmm the informant was probably his 2nd wife or maybe her son
Well, you won't know what's on it until you get it! lol
I bought a death cert for a man who needed to have been born in India to fit my tree requirements. When the cert came it said 'not known to informant' in the relevant box! It only took about five years to prove it actually was the right cert!!
Well, you won't know what's on it until you get it! lol
I bought a death cert for a man who needed to have been born in India to fit my tree requirements. When the cert came it said 'not known to informant' in the relevant box! It only took about five years to prove it actually was the right cert!!
:D But think of all the lovely things I could buy with £9 !
I'm finding Poundland wonderful for reading specs, tortoise fencing and last but by no means least ....... a lamp to go on OH's head
SUPER
Tortoise fencing?!!
In WW1 he served in all 3 services.
Wounded twice (invalided out) so re-enlisted in something different but we don’t know in which order and the Navy could well have been the Merchant Navy.
Do you have his service records, or is the above family lore/hearsay?!
Tortoise fencing?!!
Do you have his service records, or is the above family lore/hearsay?!
No service records and this info is according to OH
Tortoise fencing is to prevent her falling in the pond
Margaret in Burton
18-08-10, 14:21
Hi Rachel
To get anywhere you will need that death cert. It might not have the place of birth but then again it might. You need to know one way or the other.
Hi Rachel
To get anywhere you will need that death cert. It might not have the place of birth but then again it might. You need to know one way or the other.
Oh darn
thanks Marg
Isn't there any way to get a copy of his passport or something ?
kiterunner
18-08-10, 14:28
I've just sent you a PM giving his place of birth as London, England, Rachel (from a form he filled in).
i've just sent you a pm giving his place of birth as london, england, rachel (from a form he filled in).
:d:d:d:d:d
You mentioned 'John' married twice. Do you have the other marriage cert to see if the father's details match? Maybe the other marriage cert would give an occ for Herbert Edwin - the further forward in time the more often that seems to happen, even when the person is dec'd.
I presume you are not aware of 'John' having any siblings or other family at all?
You mentioned 'John' married twice. Do you have the other marriage cert to see if the father's details match? Maybe the other marriage cert would give an occ for Herbert Edwin - the further forward in time the more often that seems to happen, even when the person is dec'd.
I presume you are not aware of 'John' having any siblings or other family at all?
Have been unable to make a positive identification of his 2nd marriage, which was in Scotland, as nobody knows the real name of his wife despite their being married for some 15 years.
I did search for her death hoping to discover her first name, but there was nothing in or around Hampshire where they lived.
There's was one marriage which seemed more likely than the others but at the time I didn't think it worth splashing out more dosh :confused:
We know nothing about any siblings/family/anything useful :(
Of course if the second wife registered his death then you would get her first names by getting that death cert! lol
Of course if the second wife registered his death then you would get her first names by getting that death cert! lol
Ooooooooo :)
S'pose we'd better get it then ~ although OH thinks it likely that her son registered it. He lived not far from them, apparently.
OH also thinks it's possible that Gramps could have joined the Merchant Navy at a young age,
which would explain his absence from the 1911 census.
Speculation only of course, like his idea that Gramps was 009 and his family were white slave traders.
I found some interesting information on one of my line who was a director, in Google Books - might be worth a search.
kiterunner
19-08-10, 09:10
I spent a long time yesterday looking him up on Google books, Jenoco! Maybe Rachel can find something I missed, though.
I wondered if any of those companies 'John' worked for would have any useful records. He sounds important enough to have had an obit in the company mag or whatever. Was he a member of any engineering institution?
maggie_4_7
19-08-10, 11:13
There is a site:-
http://www.dmm.org.uk/hmim/1951-nor.htm
You've probably looked at it, doesn't give much information on inviduals but has attempted to put a list together of those that were influential in the Coal industry.
Perhaps he's on it.
Many thanks all
I'm told that he wrote a few things for the Institute of Elec Engineering and that baby BIL looked at these but found nothing useful.
Merry has suggested that Gramps' 2nd marriage in Scotland could name both his parents.
There are 2 likely marriages on Scotlandspeople .... no images available to download because they are too recent :(
I'm just looking at SP and how to order a marriage cert ~ and get the correct one !
maggie_4_7
19-08-10, 11:19
All Scottish marriage certs name both parents of both the bride and groom whether it's the truth or not is another matter :)
All Scottish marriage certs name both parents of both the bride and groom whether it's the truth or not is another matter :)
Ah well ... I'm having serious doubts about Gramps ! :)
Do you know how to order, putting some kind of ref point ?
I don't want to get the wrong one but it seems very confusing
If you don't have access to the "Gale" databases, which includes the Times Digital Archive as well as several biographic databases, if you PM his name, I will have a look in them for you.
Even if its just some mentions about trips to the US or dates, anything sounds like it might be a start !
Di
If you don't have access to the "Gale" databases, which includes the Times Digital Archive as well as several biographic databases, if you PM his name, I will have a look in them for you.
Even if its just some mentions about trips to the US or dates, anything sounds like it might be a start !
Di
Thanks Di
I do have access to "Gale" somewhere ;( but will order the marriage cert and hope that gives me both parents :)
I actually feel as if there's light ahead ! :D
Uncle John
19-08-10, 20:16
Surely such a "big cheese" will have an obituary somewhere. I found one of my more obscure rellies was the lord high panjandrum at Tube Investments and there was almost a full page obit. in The Times.
anne fraser
19-08-10, 21:10
One I have used in the past is "Who was who" for the year he died. It is often available in larger libraries. The problem is that details were supplied by the subject (while they were living) and if he was trying to cover up illegitamacy it might not help. Entries often list schools though.
Surely such a "big cheese" will have an obituary somewhere. I found one of my more obscure rellies was the lord high panjandrum at Tube Investments and there was almost a full page obit. in The Times.
We've not found anything so far UJ :confused:
One I have used in the past is "Who was who" for the year he died. It is often available in larger libraries. The problem is that details were supplied by the subject (while they were living) and if he was trying to cover up illegitamacy it might not help. Entries often list schools though.
Hi Anne
Is that available online ? I'd not heard of it and it certainly sounds useful
Ooops I didn't read your post properly
I'll try the local Library
Thank you for that
anne fraser
19-08-10, 21:30
I think it is available by subscription but I have only used the library copy. Several of my mum's relatives were senior civil servants and they usually get an entry.
I think it is available by subscription but I have only used the library copy. Several of my mum's relatives were senior civil servants and they usually get an entry.
;( *Gulp* yes I just saw the price of a sub
It's the Library for me :D
There is a site:-
http://www.dmm.org.uk/hmim/1951-nor.htm
You've probably looked at it, doesn't give much information on inviduals but has attempted to put a list together of those that were influential in the Coal industry.
Perhaps he's on it.
Hi maggie
I only just spotted your post and no I'd not looked at that site :)
Ooooo his name's there and an address ~ will look on google street view tomorrow and see if I can find his house
thank you
I wondered if an obit might mention about his WW1 service even if it didn't tell you anything about his parents. In turn some small mention of what he did in WW1 might open another door for you.
maggie_4_7
20-08-10, 07:30
Hi maggie
I only just spotted your post and no I'd not looked at that site :)
Ooooo his name's there and an address ~ will look on google street view tomorrow and see if I can find his house
thank you
That's good a little bit more information. I think they are the addresses of the actual offices. Maybe if you ask the Durham Museum if they have information on individuals that they may have not put online.
Is it an address you didn't know about?
Lancashire Library and West Sussex Library both have access to Who's Who online, maybe yours will too.
Have sent you a PM. :)
That's good a little bit more information. I think they are the addresses of the actual offices. Maybe if you ask the Durham Museum if they have information on individuals that they may have not put online.
Is it an address you didn't know about?
YES a new address :)
I have a nice collection of these now and will look on 'street view' later to see what I can find
Lancashire Library and West Sussex Library both have access to Who's Who online, maybe yours will too.
Have sent you a PM. :)
Thanks Caroline
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