1911 Census

[sorrilsain]

Having located Marjorie Winkless - thanks to ElizabertHerts - I assumed that her mother Ellen Winkless (nee Bull) must have died between Marjorie's birth in 1907/8 and prior to the 1911 census. However, I have searched the deaths for that period and have drawn a blank. I widened the search and it looks like Ellen Winkless died in 1922.
This, therefore, begs the question where was Ellen Winkless (nee Bull) born 1876 in Warwickshire, in 1911.
Any info would be great.
Sorrilsain

[Margaret in Burton]

Where was she in 1901?

Can you post the census ref?

[Margaret in Burton]

Where in Warwickshire was she born?

[sorrilsain]

Hi
I think she was born in Coventry.
The only other information I have got is that in 1905 she married William Winkless (AMJ) in Wolverhampton.
I have found her death in 1922 - but she isn't with the family on the 1911 census and her daughter, Marjorie, is living as a boarder with a family in Leamington.
I am wondering if she is in an institution/hospital/workhouse.... possible TB sufferer.
That is all I've got.

[Margaret in Burton]

Is William still alive in 1911?

[Margaret in Burton]

Is this William in 1911?

RG14PN18736 RG78PN1119 RD393 SD2 ED7 SN274

If so, it says he is a widower

Forget that one, on looking at the image it says married 18 years and then crossed out. Also says married and then crossed out and a different handwriting has written widower

[sorrilsain]

Hi
Yes, that is William.
His first wife (also called Ellen) died in 1903/4
I can't find a death record for another Ellen Winkless until 1922.

[Margaret in Burton]

BUT

If that's William in 1911 and he's a widower says he been married 18 years. (I did see that other marriage and her death and wondered if there were connected)
He seems to have forgotten that he married Ellen Bull. I wonder if she deserted him.

Do you have their marriage cert? That would give Ellen's father's name because I can't find her anywhere before the marriage in 1905.

Off to have another scout around.

[Margaret in Burton]

You definitley need that marriage cert, without that there is no proof where she was born, as far as I can see, or her age.

[Phoenix]

Do we have the birth certificate, to prove that Bull was her maiden name?

[Margaret in Burton]

Good point Phoenix

I can't find a birth ref for her.

I can't see where sorrilsain gets her info where and when she was born.

More info please sorrilsain

[sorrilsain]

Gosh!
I don't have the marriage cert - or birth cert. Ellen had a sister who never married - she was Annie Bull. And because I found a record of Ellen Bull's marriage to William Winkless I didn't question her maiden name - taking it for red - that it was Bull!
Sorril

[Margaret in Burton]

You need more info then. There is no guarantee that the death in 1922 is her.

Where have you got the year of birth of 1876 from?

[sorrilsain]

I have just had a look on the 1881 census and found an Ellen Bull born Birmingham 1874. She has a sister Annie born Birmingham 1876. Father Thomas & Mother Maria Bull.
As Ellen married William Winkless in Wolverhampton - it is possible that this is the right family.
The 1922 date for the death of an Ellen Winkless - sort of fit with William Winkless' 3rd marriage in 1825 to Daisy Laney.
The 1876 birth in Coventry - was for an Ellen Bull - but not it would seem the correct Ellen Bull.

[Margaret in Burton]

I have just had a look on the 1881 census and found an Ellen Bull born Birmingham 1874. She has a sister Annie born Birmingham 1876. Father Thomas & Mother Maria Bull.
As Ellen married William Winkless in Wolverhampton - it is possible that this is the right family.
The 1922 date for the death of an Ellen Winkless - sort of fit with William Winkless' 3rd marriage in 1825 to Daisy Laney.
The 1876 birth in Coventry - was for an Ellen Bull - but not it would seem the correct Ellen Bull.

Too much guess work. Never assume anything. Ellen Bull is not an uncommon name.

Don't do my trick, this is part of a post of mine on the Reference part of this site:

Not getting a certificate:

I needed a marriage certificate for one branch of my husband’s family but funds were tight. I studied the census records for his great grandmother Hannah Rushton. I knew her name from her son’s birth certificate. There were two from the same small village in Staffordshire. I guessed, I assumed. Never again. My husband took the information I had from the census and searched parish registers at Stafford record office and we were really pleased with his findings. We went back 200 years with this Rushton family.

Two years later, finances were a little better. I decided to get the marriage certificate to tidy up the records. Horror! I had guessed the wrong Hannah. They weren’t even related. Their families came from a totally different area of Staffordshire, miles away. Those 200 years of research were useless.

All because I didn’t buy a certificate when I should have.

[JBee]

I totally agree with Margaret - I too didn't get the certificates for a grandfather believing I knew who his parents were Patrick & Elizabeth but went off on a tangent using census info etc - finally got them just before the prices went up only to find Patrick's parents were Francis and Bridget - a totally different family and not connected as far as I can see. I'd travelled hundreds of miles researching the wrong family, purchasing certificates, copying parish records and getting emotional about a little lad dying in a pit accident who is not connected to me at all.

I should have known better so please make sure you get confirmation every step of the way even if you think you know the info.

Don't take family heresay as gospel either - certificates often tell a different story.

[Merry]

I haven't read all this thread, but just thought I'd add that names like Annie and Ellen are fraught with difficulty as you need to consider Ann and Hannah, Helen, Eleanor and Elenor etc etc too, so it's no good restricting yourself to the name they used on one or two censuses! (well, it may be fine, but you could be making an expensive mistake, not just in money but also in time)

[sorrilsain]

OK - points taken on board. I will order Ellen and William's wedding certicate and take it from there.
Many thanks one and all for your input.
Sorril