1841 help please.

[Gert in Oz]

I`m trying to find out the occupation of Edward Hill, he marries Sarah Holmes in 1810, children are all born Burton on Trent.

Elizabeth 1812
John 1814-1814
Thomas 1815
David 1817
John 1819
Enos 1821
Emma/Amelia 1824
Addaline 1826
Isabella 1828
Agnes 1830

1851 census, Sarah Hill is a widow living in Bailey Street Castle Church Staffordshire with son Thomas.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1851&h=8235209&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t7730524_p-869198152_kpidz0q3d-869198152z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid


On a marriage cert i have for Emma/Amelia (see my other thread on it being the right marriage) it says Edward was a Screw Forger.

Can anyone find this family on the 1841 census please, before my eyes pop out from looking. Ofcourse Edward could have died before then.

[Merry]

How sure are you that the Sarah you have with son Thomas in 1851 is the right family?

It's just that in Castle Church in 1841 there is:

Robert Hill 60 master gardener Yes
Sarah Hill 55 Yes
Robert Hill 15 gardener Yes
Thomas Hill 15 gardener Yes (same occ as 'yours' in 1851!)

so you might be looking at the remains of that family by mistake? (I haven't looked to see if this Robert family are still around in 1851 yet though as I have to go out in a few mins!)

[kiterunner]

Thomas on that 1851 census is 27 which would mean he was born about 1823-4, not 1815, so it does look unlikely to be the right family.

[Gert in Oz]

Oh you are right Kate, i was looking at Sarahs age.

I think the 1861 census is them though, even if it has Sarah aged 94 with children 47,46, 30,10 and 6.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=LANRG9_2880_2884-0810&fn=Sarah&ln=Hill&st=r&ssrc=pt_t7730524_p-869198152_kpidz0q3d-869198152z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid&pid=14184474

Merry, i have no Roberts in that family and the 1851 census i quoted was in the middle of the page.

Thank you both for looking.

[kiterunner]

Looking on FamilySearch Record Search pilot site, there is a Nathanael Hill christened 25 Dec 1832 and died 30 Dec 1832, and an Edward Hill christened 17 Mar 1839 and died 18 Dec 1839, both with parents Edward and Sarah. Hmm, that 1839 seems a bit too late for your Edward and Sarah. There is a marriage 24 Dec 1827 between Edward Hill and Sarah Smithard. So is it possible that Isabella and Agnes on your list could belong to this couple, not your Edward and Sarah? (Though of course it could be the same Edward marrying two Sarahs).

[kiterunner]

Hmmm, found this family in 1841:

Pinfold Lane, Burton on Trent, Staffordshire
Edward Hill 30 Screw Forger Y
Sarah Do 30 Y
Charlotte Do 11 Y
John Do 4 Y
Edwin Do 6 mo Y

[kiterunner]

Sorry, hadn't looked at your 1861 entry when I posted those - yes, they look likely to be the right family as they include a nail maker and a screw maker and Thomas is about the right age.

[kiterunner]

Found these in 1851:
Pinfold Lane, Burton on Trent
James Smithard Head Widr 71 ??? Lab Staffordshire Burton Extra
John Do Son U 34 Do Do Do
Ellen Do Daur U 41 Do Do
Edwin Hill Grandson 10 Scholar Do Do

Sorry, I've got a bit confused here! Is the Edward who is Edwin's father (in my post #6) the son of your Edward, maybe? Why couldn't he marry someone with a different name instead of Sarah?!

[Gert in Oz]

Sarah died Sept Q 1861, but there were no ages on the index back then.


I have Edward born abt 1781 and Sarah abt 1786, but have made no note as to where i found them, i think i may have to have another look at these two, i do know from baptisms that parents were Edward Hill and Sarah.

[kiterunner]

I found a possible baptism for Edward jr on FamilySearch Record Search in 1806 but the parents were Edward and Ann. Could your Edward have been married to an Ann before he married Sarah?

[Gert in Oz]

Kate, i don`t think that family in you post 6 is my family as i have no Charlotte or Edwin,
the last child i have is Agnes born 1830

[Gert in Oz]

I have no idea if he was married before, the marriage i have gives no indication of a previous one.

Groom's Name: Edward Hill
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Sarah Holmes
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 31 Dec 1810
Marriage Place: Burton Upon Trent,Stafford,England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M03333-2
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 417178
Reference Number:
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

[kiterunner]

That's just an index entry but if you can get a copy of the actual marriage entry from the parish register, it might state if he was a widower. There is also a Sarah Hill baptised in 1808 with parents Edward and Ann, but the FamilySearch Record Search website doesn't seem to have Burton burials for that period, so I can't see whether there is an Ann Hill death around then. Oh, unless it's on findmypast.... *goes off to look*

[kiterunner]

Oh bother, I forgot you can't select a parish on findmypast, only a county, and there are loads of Ann Hill burials in Staffordshire around the right time but I can't see if any are in Burton, and it doesn't show the age at death for them anyway.

[Gert in Oz]

Thank you for looking Kate, i`m going to bed its almost 1 am here, will look in again tomorrow.

[Margaret in Burton]

I can go to the library to look at the Parish Registers for Burton on Trent.

I've lost the gist of this thread somewhere. Are those in Pinfold Lane the wrong family?

Pinfold Lane doesn't exist anymore, it was renamed Park Street and most of that has been demolished. The area is Burton Extra and depending on dates is probably Christchurch parish. Christchurch is now the Elim Pentecostal Church. If it isn't Christchurch then it will be St Modwen's.

What needs to be looked up at the library?

Possibly going into town tomorrow or Thursday.

[kiterunner]

The Pinfold Lane family look to be relatives but are a generation after the Edward and Sarah that we're looking for, Marg.

If you are going to look at the parish registers, the post-1813 baptisms will give father's occupation so that should help, unless of course he changed occupation between children's baptisms and their marriages.

[Margaret in Burton]

NBI shows an Ann Hill buried St Modwen's Burton on Trent
burial 25th Dec 1809, no age listed though.

[Margaret in Burton]

What parish does it say for that Pinfold lane census Kate?

St Modwen or Christchurch

[kiterunner]

Christ Church.

[Margaret in Burton]

Right, so I'm looking for baptisms for children of Edward and Sarah Hill post 1813. I should get an address as well as occupation. If I don't see anything for Christchurch I'll check St Modwen's.

I'll check that 1810 marriage out as well to see if Edward is a widower.

Can't promise tomorrow, depends if there is a machine free. Daughter is having a pre wedding make up trial in Boots at 3pm, so depends how long that takes.

[kiterunner]

Thomas Hill in 1851 is a lodger at West Gate, Rotherham, Yorkshire, occupation Nail Maker Journeyman. I'm still looking for the rest of them...

[kiterunner]

We have the exact dates and places of the baptisms from FamilySearch Record Search, I think, Marg... will post them up in a minute...

[kiterunner]

The marriage is
Edward Hill / Sarah Holmes 31 Dec 1810 St Modwen's, Burton on Trent

Baptisms:
Eliza or Elizabeth 25 Oct 1812
John 24 Mar 1814
Thomas 1 Oct 1815
David 28 Sep 1817
John 8 Aug 1819
Enos 20 Oct 1821
Emila 21 Mar 1824
Addaline 26 Mar 1826
Isabella 29 Jun 1828
(Charles 5 Jul 1829 - think this may be Charlotte and belongs to Edward jr)
Agnes 3 Oct 1830

Sorry but it doesn't say which church the baptisms took place at.

[Margaret in Burton]

It'll be St Modwen's.

Just checked Genuki and Christ Church wasn't built until 1843/1844

[Margaret in Burton]

I've found the family in 1851 on FMP

They are in Manchester. Edward is still living.

It is a Synthesised census image, never seen one of those before.

I'll do a screen shot.

[Margaret in Burton]

Ignore the name on the top line

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/1851-2.jpg

[Margaret in Burton]

Looking at the ages of the children they should be in Lancs in 1841 as well

[Margaret in Burton]

1841 census

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=LANHO107_580_580-0289&fn=Agness&ln=Hill&st=d&ssrc=&pid=6202295

[Margaret in Burton]

Now they've been found in 1841 and 1851 do I still need to go to the library?

[Margaret in Burton]

Two possible deaths for Edward

Hulme where they were living in 1851 is in Chorlton district

March qtr 1851 Vol 20 Page 168

June qtr 1857 Vol 8c Page 366


edit:

The 1851 is on the NBI. he was buried 24th Feb 1851 aged 53 so not him

[Gert in Oz]

Thank you so much Marg and Kite, i was looking in the wrong place no wonder i couldn`t find them.

I think Ancestry must have that page missing, as i tried the Hannah Guist thats at the top of that page Marg found and no results, unless someone can give me a enumaration district to look in, i did look at all the page number 32s for Hulme, but maybe that not the number i need. Then going Manchester, then Hulme just gave me the workhouse.

Don`t make a special trip to the library Marg, but if you are going one day can you just look up that marriage please to see if it says they were previously married.

[Margaret in Burton]

Sylvia

The ref on FMP for that 1851 was a weird one, folio and page were zero's. Didn't exist on Ancestry I tried it. Like I said I've never seen one like that before. The original image must have been too bad and that was a form of transcript.

I'm in town, the library is in town, but it does depend on how much time I have and if there is a machine free. Haven't done any of that sort of research for ages it'll do me good. PLUS, if i go today I'll have daughter with me and she can help. Keep trying to get her interested. :D:D

[kiterunner]

A lot of the 1851 census for Manchester was water-damaged and the local family history society for that area eventually managed to transcribe it using ultra-violet light to view the pages. FMP now has their transcriptions available. I don't think ancestry has that data available yet, although I'm sure I read something recently about them acquiring an ultra-violet light viewer so they could do it.

[Gert in Oz]

Ah, that explains why the one Marg found, looked so different, lucky for me FMP brought that light.

[kiterunner]

Sorry, I didn't explain it properly - FMP bought the transcriptions that were done by the family history society (Manchester? Lancashire? sorry, don't know exactly who)

[Margaret in Burton]

Hi Sylvia

Managed to get a fiche reader in the library.


Edward Hill a widower, OTP and Sarah Holmes, a spinster OTP were married by banns on 31 Oct 1810 at St Modwen's parish church, Burton upon Trent.
Witnesses: Richard Aston or Euston, Hannah Ridge and William Shilton

Edward was confirmed as a Screw Forger in the children's baptisms. Most addresses did just say Burton Extra. The one for Emilia said the address was Bond End.

Burton Extra and Bond End are really the same place. It comprises the southern end of the town centre from High Street to the river Trent and towards Branston.

Sorry couldn't get an actual address.

[Margaret in Burton]

By the way, daughter looked up the marriage whilst I was doing the baptisms. There was nobody in the local studies bit. She did very well but struggled over the names of the witnesses. She said"how the hell do you read these things?"

I said: experience

[Gert in Oz]

Thank you so much Marg, thank your daughter for me too, i hope her make up session went well.

I had a feeling Kate could be right about a second marriage, as he would have been about 30 when he married Sarah.

Off to look back on Kates notes and find the first marriage and wifes death.

[Gert in Oz]

I found a possible baptism for Edward jr on FamilySearch Record Search in 1806 but the parents were Edward and Ann. Could your Edward have been married to an Ann before he married Sarah?

There are 3 marriages in Staffordshire to Ann, but only one in Burton at St Modwens to Ann Tarbott 7 Sept 1801, 2 children baptised Edward 1806 and Sarah 1808, no luck in finding a death though.

There were also marriages to other names just not in Burton.

[Margaret in Burton]

NBI shows an Ann Hill buried St Modwen's Burton on Trent
burial 25th Dec 1809, no age listed though.

Sylvia

#18

[Gert in Oz]

Oops thank you Marg, i must have missed that when i looked back.

[Margaret in Burton]

Sarah died Sept Q 1861, but there were no ages on the index back then.


I have Edward born abt 1781 and Sarah abt 1786, but have made no note as to where i found them, i think i may have to have another look at these two, i do know from baptisms that parents were Edward Hill and Sarah.

Sylvia

Are you sure about Sarah's death in 1861?

1871 she seems to be alive and well

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=LANRG10_3993_3994-0585&fn=Sarah&ln=Hill&st=d&ssrc=&pid=5073708

RG10; Piece: 3994; Folio: 115; Page: 19

[Gert in Oz]

No Marg i`m not, i just couldn`t find her, so went looking for deaths. At least thats a more realistic age for her than 94 in 1861.

I did the same thing with my great grandmother knocked her off before she died.

[Margaret in Burton]

Still can't find her death though, there isn't one 1871-1881 that fits age wise.

I'll have to see if I can find her in 1881.

[Gert in Oz]

I can`t find her in 1881, there are a couple of deaths in Chorlton both aged 79 in 1872 and 74, which are way out.

[Margaret in Burton]

I can`t find her in 1881, there are a couple of deaths in Chorlton both aged 79 in 1872 and 74, which are way out.

I saw those as well. I can't find Agnes b1830 either in 1881.

[Gert in Oz]

I couldn`t find Agnes either, so looked for William Haley. (head of house in 71) and she is his wife, Alfred is still with them and now a Haley,

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=LANRG11_3922_3926-0311&fn=William&ln=Haley&st=d&ssrc=&pid=10386379

I can`t find a marriage for them though.

Couldn`t find Agnes in 1891, but she is a grandmother to Robert Wiseman and wife Gertrude in 1901 and widowed.

[Margaret in Burton]

I think Sarah is one of those deaths in Chorlton between 1871 and 1881 and her age is off again. Been a bit inconsistant all the way through.

I'll take a look for Agnes in 1891 a bit later.

[Margaret in Burton]

I couldn`t find Agnes either, so looked for William Haley. (head of house in 71) and she is his wife, Alfred is still with them and now a Haley,

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=LANRG11_3922_3926-0311&fn=William&ln=Haley&st=d&ssrc=&pid=10386379

I can`t find a marriage for them though.

Couldn`t find Agnes in 1891, but she is a grandmother to Robert Wiseman and wife Gertrude in 1901 and widowed.

Robert Wiseman married Gertrude Wood Sep qtr 1896 in Burnley reg. 8e 521

[Margaret in Burton]

Possible death for William Haley. March qtr 1886 , Chorlton Reg 8c 562

aged 70

Age is a little out from the 1881 census but what's new with this family.

[Margaret in Burton]

I can't find Agnes in 1891 or 1911. Can't find a death either unless she remarried. I can't see a marriage for her and William Haley either.

Robert and Gertrude Wiseman are at 9 Albert Street Brierfield, Burnley in 1911. Agnes isn't with them.

[Gert in Oz]

Thank you Marg, i tried to figure out who Agnes was grandmother to and traced back both Robert and Gertrude and they don`t seem to be related, but will have another go at them tomorrow, when the old brains not tired.

Will let you know how i get on.