View Full Version : bigamy question ?
garstonite
24-07-10, 16:38
Hi...I went to do a job for my Aunty today...she is my mums sister and is 87..and has always said...oohh I don`t really know -not sure , when I have asked her questions...but today....she spilled ALL
I could never understand how my grandad was born Reginald Percival Roberts and married as Percival Anson....NOW I KNOW....what I don`t understand is this
Matthew John Roberts b Welshpool married Martha Adams in 1885...Martha was 17 and from a very very rich family in Astley , Shropshire...Matthew was an ag lab on the estate where Martha lived.She ran away with him and they got married..HOW ? - she would have needed dads permission ?
My aunty tells me that MATTHEW was already married and no-one knew...so he was jailed for 15 months....when he came out of jail they moved to Garston, where Matthew got a job on the docks...they had 5 children..because he had been in jail they all changed their names to Anson..but not legally...except my grandad who had to because of some legal wrangle(I think an insurance claim ) - he then left her and came back a year later and moved in with a woman IN THE SAME STREET AS MARTHA LIVED...my questions are
The marriage is on freebmd...I thought bigamous marriages were scrubbed ??
how was Martha allowed to marry without her dads permission ???
Who was Matthews first wife ...presumably he married in Welshpool....
thanx......allan:)
Olde Crone
24-07-10, 16:45
Bigamous marriages are supposed to be suppressed. However, there are so many indexes floating around, some old, some new, that it would be impossible to alter every index to obliterate any record of the marriage. Also, they are SUPPOSED to be suppressed but in practice it seems they didn't always get round to doing it, lol and some people have managed to obtain a copy of a bigamous marriage certificate from the GRO.
She may have forged her father's permission, or lied about her age, or said she was an orphan...lots of ways around it.
If he did time for the bigamy, there will probably be a report in the local paper.
OC
If the right procedure is followed a bigamous cert is suppressed if you ask for it. It is NOT removed from the GRO index though.
I have one person on my tree who went to prison for bigamy, but his entry is not suppressed (his great-niece has a cert copy!) so I guess a lot were not. In fact I believe so many were not suppressed that I do wonder if the info I have (gleaned from a Sup Registrar) is actually correct.
Re permission - most likely she lied about her age. Are you getting the cert?
You said Martha was 17 in 1885 but in 1891 she is listed as 27 in 1891!
If she is the granddaughter of Thomas Adams from Astley Salop then she was listed as 7 in 1871, so that fits with her age in 1891 but not with the marriage (but where did you get the age from?)
garstonite
24-07-10, 17:25
Thank you both...I wasn`t going to get the cert...another question...if he was previously married , did they EVER legally marry ?....or more to the point could they if he never got divorced...where do you think it would be in the papers ? where his first wife lived ?....I can find a marriage in 1879 in DEVON for a Matthew John Roberts....allan:confused:
Well if he was already married, he could only have married her legally if a) he got divorced or b) his legal wife died.
I am guessing the bigamy trial would be reported in the local paper of the court where the trial was held.
They are together in 1891 but not in 1901. I can't find Matthew then. Do you know what happened to the other children, Richard and Robert?
Here is the one who married in Devon, in 1881:
Matthew J. ROBERTS Head M 25 Iron Miner b Devonport, Devon
Rosa M. ROBERTS Wife M 26 Ilsington, Devon
1 Smoky House
Ilsington, Devon, England
They are still together in 1891, so I think you can ignore that marriage.
Your Matthew has the same details in 1891 as he does in 1881 (when he was single) so if he did marry anyone it was after 1881.
What if it was Martha who was the first wife and this is him again?
Marriages Jun 1894
Beamond Elizabeth Atcham 6a 1232
Challenor Edward Atcham 6a 1232
Roberts Matthew John Atcham 6a 1232
Spencer Clara Atcham 6a 1232
Have to cook dinner now!
garstonite
24-07-10, 17:41
You said Martha was 17 in 1885 but in 1891 she is listed as 27 in 1891!
If she is the granddaughter of Thomas Adams from Astley Salop then she was listed as 7 in 1871, so that fits with her age in 1891 but not with the marriage (but where did you get the age from?)
Sorry Merry....I got it wrong ...I have just checked my tree...she was born 8th December 1863....so would have been 21 when she married in 1885 ...coming 22..she actually made a fabulously hand written card of all the 13 children born to
William and Sarah Adams with all the dates of birth ,it truly is a work of art.....Thomas was her grandad....so she was of full age to get married.....oops....allan:(:(
ADDED...Richard and Robert were the twins born 1888..then ELEVEN years later.Percival (my grandad b 1899)....I think they should be together in 1901....considering the ELEVEN year gap...I think the bigamous marriage was the 1894 one and when he came out of jail he went back to Martha...that looks more feasible.....allan
Re this:
Marriages Jun 1894
Beamond Elizabeth Atcham 6a 1232
Challenor Edward Atcham 6a 1232
Roberts Matthew John Atcham 6a 1232
Spencer Clara Atcham 6a 1232
Edward C seems to have married Clara as they are together in the same district in 1901. Can't see the other couple yet!
Richard and Robert were the twins born 1888
Yes, I needed to know if they lived as there's no point in searching for them in 1901 (they are not with mum) if they died.
garstonite
24-07-10, 18:09
Are they in Astley or Garston in 1901 ?.....or still in Welshpool...I would have thought Martha would have gone home while he was in Jail...my grandad was b 1899 in Welshpool....allan:confused:added...my aunty who was born in 1923 was talking about the twins today so I presume she knew them, which would mean they were around when she was a child....around 1930 ...allan
Right, now I've eaten I can consentrate better!
1891 Matthew and Martha are together with the twins aged 3. They are in Welshpool, Matthew is 30 (this matches with earlier census records though I don't see a birth reg for him)and Marytha is 27. Her brother (Thomas 24) is on the same page.
1901 Matthew is nowhere to be seen. Martha is 36 and is sister-in-law to William Williams, who says he is married, as does MArtha, but his wife is missing too! They are living in Astley Shropshire and her son Reginald P Roberts is there too, aged 3 and born Welshpool.
I can't find any of them in 1911!! (yet! - need to check Anson)
I did wonder if Matthew left Martha and that is where the bigamy comes in (with the 1894 marriage) but you said they had five children, plus if that was a second marriage for MAtthew then Reginald might not be his son, which would put a spanner in the works!! lol
Who are the other children?
Oooh - here they are (I was trying to find Martha ten years younger than she actually was, which is why I didn't find her before - just shows what a plate of food can do! lol):
1911:
Alfred Anson 50
Martha Anson 47
Percy Anson 13
Ronald Alfred Anson 7
Rupert Wilfred Anson 2
EDIT: Ignore this, below, and read on.....
So, was Alfred the father of all this lot? If he was then I guess Matthew was the man who remarried in 1893?
Ignore and read on....
It doesn't look as if Martha and Alfred married (because it would have been bigamous?)
Oh, doh, I get it now - you mean that Alfred Anson IS Matthew Roberts???
He is giving the same age, but that he was born in "Aston Staffs". Not sure there are any Astons in Staffs, but I am very prepared to stand corrected! lol
I'm still trying to find what happened to Elizabeth Beamond.
garstonite
24-07-10, 19:21
You`re a star Merry...in my tree I have
Raymond /Robert b 1888
Reginald Percival b 1899
Alfred b 1903
Rupert b 1908
didn`t know my Uncle Fred ( Alfred ) was born Ronald Alfred...so that`s a bonus.
so I suppose we need to find Alfred Anson / Matthew Roberts...but where did he dream up the name Alfred Anson ?.
where are they in that 1911 census ? Otway st Garston ?....allan
Otway st
Yep - 'Alfred' is a dock labourer.
Not having any luck with Elizabeth Beamond. I think she is most likely to be the one b 1871 in Atcham district. I have her in 1881 aged 9, but can't find her in 1891. She says she was b Westbury Shropshire, but that's not helping! lol
garstonite
24-07-10, 19:55
Yep - 'Alfred' is a dock labourer.
Not having any luck with Elizabeth Beamond. I think she is most likely to be the one b 1871 in Atcham district. I have her in 1881 aged 9, but can't find her in 1891. She says she was b Westbury Shropshire, but that's not helping! lol
It helps me Merry....Westbury is about 15 miles from Astley where he worked and Martha was from.....bit of a womaniser to say the least...Martha died aged 93 in Otway st when I was 6...she was a wonderful kind old lady....
Raymond and Robert would be 23 in the 1911 census so probably flew the nest...are they with Richard and Sarah Roberts in Welshpool in 1901?...their nan and grandad ..allan
Margaret in Burton
24-07-10, 20:06
Merry
Aston (Birmingham) used to be in Staffordshire
It helps me Merry
It doesn't if that's not the right Elizabeth. You really need the marriage cert.
are they with Richard and Sarah Roberts in Welshpool in 1901?...their nan and grandad ..allan
Can't see a Richard and Sarah in Welshpool?? How old should they be?
Merry
Aston (Birmingham) used to be in Staffordshire
I didn't know that! 54 miles from Welshpool! Are we SURE it's the same man?
garstonite
24-07-10, 20:13
Richard and Sarah were both b 1827....so could well be dead in 1901....lol...didn`t realise that ///sorry Merry.....allan:o
Margaret in Burton
24-07-10, 20:22
Just been on Google maps. There is an Aston near Telford which is only 29 miles from Welshpool.
Margaret in Burton
24-07-10, 20:29
!!! pmsl!
well it's closer than 54 :D:D:p:p:p
Allan, You said the twins changed their names to Anson, but I can't see deaths for them with that surname. :confused:
garstonite
25-07-10, 06:07
Merry....in my first post I said that the family were known as Anson..but not legally.according to my Aunty, they were all still Roberts oficially...My Grandad DID change his name to Anson by deed poll.he had to for some legal ,.....his brother Alfred (my uncle Fred) was Fred Roberts - and he was younger than my grandad...so I would think the twins were definitely Roberts...so you have just set me thinking...did Martha die as Martha Roberts officially ..or Anson ?.....1957 death......in Garston ...allan:)
P.S.Sorry if you think I disappeared last night...2 grandkids aged 8 BOTH decided to go online ...so Ann and I lost our laptops rather suddenly
Ohhhhh! I took this bit:
because he had been in jail they all changed their names to Anson..but not legally...except my grandad who had to because of some legal wrangle
To mean everyone except your granddad changed their surname to Anson (not by deed poll etc), so all their entries after 1911 would be in the name Anson. You don't have to do anything legal to be known by another name.
Here's Martha's death (there were no Martha Roberts who were old enough):
Name: Martha Anson
Death Registration Month/Year: Q2 1957
Age at death (estimated): 93
Registration district: Liverpool South
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10d
Page: 562
garstonite
25-07-10, 07:36
Thanks Merry....I`m so confused ...my uncle Fred was Roberts ...yet his mum died Anson...my mum and all her siblings (11 kids in all ) were all christened Anson....as you say, my mums grandparents just changed the name to Anson...they didn`t need to do it legally....allan:):confused:
Taking grandkids to Rhyl now....£130 in wallet...do you think that will be enough ???....lol I don`t....have a good day and thanks all....allan
lol I don`t....
lol Me neither!!
garstonite
30-07-10, 07:17
OK...I went to my aunties again yesterday and she tells me BEFORE the twins were born Martha gave birth to William Roberts about 1885...I don`t have him in my tree...one of the twins was Richard William...so I don`t know if she is getting confused...so I am looking for a William Roberts c1885 Welshpool (I think, twins were born there )or Atcham....added...found a William Roberts b sep qtr 1887 in Atcham...think thats him
allan
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