1921 Census ?

[Muggins in Sussex]

I came across this http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/restoring-civil-liberties/allow-access-to-the-1921-census-now

I do sooo wish we had access to the census

[Uncle John]

A big pat on the back for Guy. The timing couldn't be better, with the government looking to generate revenue.

[Tilly Mint]

A big pat on the back for Guy. The timing couldn't be better, with the government looking to generate revenue.

Ditto from me too!

[Merry]

*wonders why on earth Joan wants to look at the 1921 census* :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :d

[Margaret in Burton]

*wonders why on earth Joan wants to look at the 1921 census* :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :d

ooh I reckon I know

[Muggins in Sussex]

LOL Merry and Marg! - :d:d - I must rack my brains!

I just found this - http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/PageBrowser?path=Browse/TNA%20Census%20-%20Other%20%28by%20date%29/1921&active=yes&mno=3210&tocstate=expandnew&display=sections&display=tables&display=pagetitles&pageseq=21

It is Welsh - not sure if the English was the same - but it doesn't look as though there was any sensitive information recorded on the census

[Sue at the seaside]

This is a quote from Guy on another site, it seems our vote is important !

Sue

I have added a posting to the new hmg Your Freedom site

http://tinyurl.com/2vju6b9

If you want access to the 1921 census please visit and add your vote there.

Your vote is important please use it.

Cheers
Guy

[Kit]

I'd love the census to be avavilable too.

One comment on the site was that it was possible for there to be living people on the census, although they would be quite young on the census. I guess the only issue is if those people care the census is released.

[Olde Crone]

Kit

Surely the issue is that the government of the day gave a solemn promise that the information taken on the census would not be released for 100 years.

I do not feel that a subsequent government has the right to overturn this promise just to satisfy our curiosity.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

Well if there are people living that were recorded on 1921 they would have been mostly children then unless there is anyone 110 -120 years old still alive I suppose there's a few (or have I got my arithmetic wrong :confused:) my mother was born 19th March 1921 she died in November 2000 she would have been 3 months old on the 1921 census.

[Joy Dean]

I think it would be totally and ethically wrong, and I quote from two sites here:

http://www.ffhs.org.uk/news/news061213.php

Please note that Government policy is that the 1921 and subsequent censuses should remain closed for 100 years. Unlike the 1911 census, the 1921 census was conducted under the 1920 Census Act, which is still in force and which contains a statutory prohibition on disclosure. This means that if any Freedom Of Information Act (FOI) requests are received for the 1921 census, the exemption found in S44 of the FOI Act will be invoked to maintain census confidentiality. (The 1921 census is not held by TNA and remains, like all subsequent censuses, in the custody of the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

http://www.1911census.org.uk/1921.htm
The 1921 Census was taken on the night of Sunday 19th June 1921.
Accessing the 1921 Census .... when will the 1921 Census be released?
The ruling by the Information Commissioner that resulted in the 1911 census being opened early does not apply to the 1921 census because, unlike the 1911 census, the 1921 census was conducted under the 1920 Census Act, which is still in force and which contains a statutory prohibition on disclosure.

The stated government position from the ONS is "its intention to release the entirety of the 1921 census returns in 2022, in accordance with the non-statutory '100 year rule' which was adopted to reflect this undertaking of confidentiality".

[maggie_4_7]

I don't have any views on the rights or wrongs of releasing the data of the 1921 census. However, I would like it released I personally know my mother would not care one way or the other.

The establishment will do whatever it chooses for whatever suits them best they always do. They can change the rules they do it all the time.

[Sue from Southend]

As my father was born in 1919 and is still with us I am a little uncomfortable with the idea of the 1921 census having an early release. This is purely an emotional response and I wouldn't be able to explain why in a reasoned debate especially as I know that, like Maggie's Mum, my Dad doesn't care one way or the other!! But I believe that there are others out there whose parents would appear on the census who'd feel the same way.

[Muggins in Sussex]

On the minus side I have a living relative who should be in the 1921 census, and would not, I believe be happy about its release at any time!!-even after 2021!

On the plus side, I have in the past been unable to answer medical questions my doctor has asked me - and if I had access to the 1921 census, I believe I could find the answers to those questions.

[Olde Crone]

Muggins

There is absolutely no medical information whatsoever on the 1921 census, not even the usual deaf/blind/dumb/imbecile question.

OC

[Muggins in Sussex]

Muggins

There is absolutely no medical information whatsoever on the 1921 census, not even the usual deaf/blind/dumb/imbecile question.

OC

Hi OC - what I meant was that the census might enable me find out who my grandparents were, so that hopefully I could discover, amongst other things, their causes of death, which is what my Dr wanted to know

Sorry if I was being a bit obscure!

[maggie_4_7]

Joan

I understand what you mean. It will answer a few questions you have but remember it will probably open up even more...

I'm more interest in the Scottish 1911 - well the 1921 too but I'll be probably be dead by then.

[Nell]

*touched by people's faith that governments keep promises*

My Dad who is now dead, will be on 1921 census, but not my f-i-l who was born August 1921 and not my Mum or m-i-l.

I think I will look at all my family branches and record what I think ought to be on 1921 census while I wait for it to be released. Then I can see how accurate my predictions are!

I'm fairly clear on my immediate ancestors, its the offshoots that are so elusive. Oh, and on ex's side I might find Zusman Hart of course!

[Joy Dean]

http://www.1911census.org.uk/1921.htm
The 1921 Census was taken on the night of Sunday 19th June 1921.

It had been originally planned that the census would be taken on the night of 24th April 1921 but this was delayed because of strikes.

Extra questions asked over the 1911 census included

whether a marriage has been dissolved by divorce
where each person works
the industry within which someone works

The question introduced in 1911 about the number of children was dropped, the reason given was that the results from the previous census had not yet been tabulated. Also the question about blindness, deafness or dumbness were removed on the grounds that the answers given in the previous census were unreliable and also parents had objected to giving this information about their children.

Accessing the 1921 Census .... when will the 1921 Census be released?
The ruling by the Information Commissioner that resulted in the 1911 census being opened early does not apply to the 1921 census because, unlike the 1911 census, the 1921 census was conducted under the 1920 Census Act, which is still in force and which contains a statutory prohibition on disclosure.

The stated government position from the ONS is "its intention to release the entirety of the 1921 census returns in 2022, in accordance with the non-statutory '100 year rule' which was adopted to reflect this undertaking of confidentiality".

[maggie_4_7]

I'm sure I read somewhere that the Regristrar at the time didn't have the power to assure a 100 year closure.

[kiterunner]

I think I've seen that too, Maggie, but I think what the authorities are saying is that at the time, people filled in the form on the understanding that their information would be kept confidential and the 100-year rule has been brought in to make sure that it is kept confidential until almost all the people on the census entries are no longer alive.

If the 1921 census were to be released early then where would the line be drawn? If not 100 years, then how many? Maybe people would refuse to fill in the census form next time round on the grounds that they don't trust the authorities to keep their information confidential.

[maggie_4_7]

Then I susepect as soon as they get the 2011 out of the way things could change people have short memories sometimes.

[Olde Crone]

I would certainly refuse to fill in any future census form, if the 1921 is released particularly early, on the grounds that the government cannot be trusted to keep their promise of confidentiality.

I also agree with Kate that the matter of the 100-year rule is hair-splitting...those who filled in the 1921 census certainly believed the information would not be released for 100 years, if ever.

It is a matter of principle. I'm as nosey as the next person and can't wait to see it.

As someone said when we discussed the early release of the 1911 census:

Do I want to see it today? Yes.

Should I be able to see it today? No.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

I would still fill in census returns whatever they did. After all we're constanty giving personal data away everyday - by using debit cards, loyalty cards and any other thing we rent i.e. phone/internet lines.

[Olde Crone]

Maggie

Apart from the fact that the things you mention only collect and collate SOME things about us, neither do they promise to keep the information private for 100 years!

It's the promise being broken which upsets me. I have a choice as to whether I have a loyalty card or not, but I have no choice about filling in the census, which is very personal information obtained under legal duress.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

I don't remember filling in the last one that's how much I worry about it. I don't think there's that much personal in it to be honest that people can't find out in other ways if they really wanted to. :rolleyes:

As for promises made by governments they're always breaking promises, I don't doubt they'll break this one when money is involved as well and I don't regard this promise that important compared to some of them they've broken that's for sure.

[Nell]

As I recall the 2001 census asked for the names and ages and occupations of everyone at the address. I remember thinking it would be interesting as we'd just moved a year ago and I'd got a new job, so future family historians would see how things had changed for us since 1991 when we hadn't had our children either.

If people want to find out about you - they can. Perfectly legitimately. I've traced my mum's cousin from the birth and marriage indexes and found his address in the phone book. Simples! Got info about his job online as he was awarded a Lifetime Achievement Award for it too, plus info about his wife, son and sister online in a parish magazine article!

[Olde Crone]

Yes, if people are motivated, they can find out about you by using various different resources, quite a lot of time, some money and some searching skills. Most of those people will not be on the 1921 census!

And if it is that easy to find people, then....whaddya want to see the 1921 early for, when you have all those other easy resources!

OC

[Muggins in Sussex]

Hi OC

I really really want to see it asap so that I can hopefully solve a mystery which gives me sleepless nights, and also so that I can ( as I think I said earlier) maybe be able to give some family medical history to my GP as she has requested, and which I am unable to answer at present.

But I think I am probably an unusual case :confused: and probably being a bit selfish! LOL

[maggie_4_7]

The 1921 census won't give me much more detail about my mum's family than I already know. But yes it's probably morally wrong to disclose the information but establishments don't work on morals unfortunately.

There will be some people that might solve a few mysteries - yes I know the census weren't invented for family historians but it hasn't stopped them being a good starting point for most and being used to their full potential by everyone.

I don't know what the big fuss is its 1921 not 1991 - I can get het up about a lot of broken promises some quite serious ones that affect living people but that's not one of them.

[Olde Crone]

I cannot help how I feel and I feel that it is morally wrong to renege on a promise given officially. Just because other promises have been made and broken does not make this alright as far as I am concerned.

Maybe it doesn't matter. Or maybe it matters to only one person who appears on the 1921 in embarrassing family circumstances - embarrassing to someone born in that era, not to us. Hardboiled cynic as I am, I really do not want to cause distress to that one elderly person - real distress believe me. Where I live, such things as illegitimacy still matter in small villages.

However that's all besides the point. I am sure it will be released early no matter what I think or feel.

OC

[Joy Dean]

I cannot help how I feel and I feel that it is morally wrong to renege on a promise given officially. Just because other promises have been made and broken does not make this alright as far as I am concerned.

Maybe it doesn't matter. Or maybe it matters to only one person who appears on the 1921 in embarrassing family circumstances - embarrassing to someone born in that era, not to us. Hardboiled cynic as I am, I really do not want to cause distress to that one elderly person - real distress believe me. Where I live, such things as illegitimacy still matter in small villages.

However that's all besides the point. I am sure it will be released early no matter what I think or feel.

OC

Well, I sincerely hope that it will not be released early.

[Kit]

Kit

Surely the issue is that the government of the day gave a solemn promise that the information taken on the census would not be released for 100 years.

I do not feel that a subsequent government has the right to overturn this promise just to satisfy our curiosity.

OC

You are right OC and I forgot that promise. The people I want to see are long dead so they don't care but for anyone currently alive who is approaching the 100 mark may care and that matters.

I could be wrong but I am sure Guy has tried to access the 1921 census, I'm sure he was successful. After that he moved onto the 1939 registration cards.

Joan do you have an address for the people you are after? I think you would need that to try for early access. If so contact Guy and see what he says. It may be wasted money though.

[maggie_4_7]

Well, I sincerely hope that it will not be released early.

I'm confused as to why some people are using the term 'released early' there isn't a 100 year rule on the 1921 census never has been.

If the law isn't changed it won't be released at all!

The legal wrangle isn't about when but if it is released! :rolleyes:

[Joy Dean]

As OC said, the government of the day promised that the information taken on the census would not be released for 100 years.

[Joy Dean]

I should be interested in the views of the Federation of Family History Societies; I shall go and search.

[JayG]

The 100 year closure was brought in after the 1921 census was taken.

The 1921 census is subject to no release hence Guy's repeal of this law, if the law isn't changed then forget about seeing it early, we won't be able to see it at all.

[maggie_4_7]

As OC said, the government of the day promised that the information taken on the census would not be released for 100 years.

No they didn't thats the point not for the 1921 from what I've read and gleaned from numerous links both you and and other people have posted. Let me know if I've got it wrong.

I should be interested in the views of the Federation of Family History Societies; I shall go and search.

Probably out of sync with most news or views I would think.

[Olde Crone]

Maggie

From what I understand, there WAS a promise that the 1921 census would not be released for 100 years. The Registrar General did not have the power to make that promise, though. However, the 1920 census Act said that no census would EVER be released.

So, you have an Act of parliament forbidding the release of any census ever, or you have a misguided promise that the census information will not be released for 100 years. I expect that those filling in the 1921 census blithely believed the "100 years" promise, and to release it early on a hair-splitting technicality is not playing the game as far as I am concerned.

As I said upthread though - it makes no difference what I think, it will be released early, no doubt about that.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

err sorry I'm confused it was my understanding from all the links posted by various people and also Guy's information that at the time of the 1921 census that no undertaking was given for the details to be confidential and not disclosed for 100 years at all to the people filling it in.

I thought that the nondisclosure came under the 1920 act which means it will never be disclosed nothing at all about after a 100 years and wouldn't have result in an argument/debate about releasing it early. It doesn't apply unless the law is changed it won't be realeased at all.


"The first census that included the promise the census returns would be closed for 100 years was the 1981 census.

The then Registrar General (Len Cook) made an unauthorised pledge that the census would be closed a pledge he later had to admit in a letter to the House of Commons dated 14 March 2005 he had no authority to give."

Which was a long time after 1921!!!

So I am very confused OC at why you are debating over this 100 year thing and that you'd rather it wasn't realeased early!

[Joy Dean]

This http://www.1911census.org.uk/1921.htm states
The stated government position from the ONS is "its intention to release the entirety of the 1921 census returns in 2022, in accordance with the non-statutory '100 year rule' which was adopted to reflect this undertaking of confidentiality".

I see nothing wrong with that.

[maggie_4_7]

This http://www.1911census.org.uk/1921.htm states
The stated government position from the ONS is "its intention to release the entirety of the 1921 census returns in 2022, in accordance with the non-statutory '100 year rule' which was adopted to reflect this undertaking of confidentiality".

I see nothing wrong with that.

Really.

But wasn't that undertaking given in 1981 not 1921 or can someone enlighten me some more?

So from all the information I have gleaned its a little bit disingenuous really isn't it.

Because if 'we' were really upholding the undertaking and being true to the people that actually filled in the 1921 census it would be the 1920 act that it would never be disclosed!

[GenieDi]

Well, I for one would love to see the 1921 faster. All my grandparents will be on it with siblings.

When you think of the war and other disasters in between that and 1911 there will be many millions no longer on it.

[Olde Crone]

Maggie

It is the SPIRIT of the law I am trying to uphold.

I am perfectly sure that those who filled in the 1921 census THOUGHT the information would be closed for 100 years, even if that promise had been omitted from the actual form. I believe in fact that it was remarked upon in the press and there were official assurances (in the press!) that the information was private for 100 years.

Just because something is legally possible (because someone fouled up at the time) doesn't make it right, in my book.

OC

[Oakum Picker]

I'm not particularly bothered about the 1921 as neither of my parents are on it but personally I'd really like to see myself on the Census. I was born in 1950 so would be happy for the '51 &'61 to be released now.

[Kit]

lol Glen. That is rather wishful thinking. I have no idea if you could apply for your own census. Maybe you could try?

[maggie_4_7]

Maggie

It is the SPIRIT of the law I am trying to uphold.

I am perfectly sure that those who filled in the 1921 census THOUGHT the information would be closed for 100 years, even if that promise had been omitted from the actual form. I believe in fact that it was remarked upon in the press and there were official assurances (in the press!) that the information was private for 100 years.

Just because something is legally possible (because someone fouled up at the time) doesn't make it right, in my book.

OC

You can't know what they thought in 1921 or that they cared or didn't care to be honest. If it was remarked on in the press I wonder which newspapers and what type of newspapers.

I have filled in a lot of census forms and I cannot for the life of me remember what it said on any of the forms to do with privacy. I will make a point of looking in 2011 but to be frank I don't care. Because what I write on census forms most people already know one way or the other. In fact if the amount of junk mail I get personally addressed to me is anything to go by I expect they know a lot more.

[maggie_4_7]

I'm not particularly bothered about the 1921 as neither of my parents are on it but personally I'd really like to see myself on the Census. I was born in 1950 so would be happy for the '51 &'61 to be released now.

I would like to see the 1921 census but only one of my parents will be on it the other one was in Steppes, Glasgow, Scotland so won't be.

I would like to see those later ones too and I wouldn't mind anyone else seeing them either. How brilliant that would be and I know if my mother was alive she'd love to see the 1921 census she was 3 months old and she wouldn't care who saw it or what was on it regarding her or her family :d

[Merry]

I had a look in The Times newspaper to see if I could find anything about census closure etc. Didn't, but rather inevitably (given the paper) there were a few letters (mainly after 1931 I think) moaning about the enumerator not keeping info confidental from the maid who answered the door!! One householder put the form in an envelope to stop the maid reading it, but the enumerator opened the envelope and read the details to the maid and asked her opinion on whether the info was correct!! lol

[maggie_4_7]

I had a look in The Times newspaper to see if I could find anything about census closure etc. Didn't, but rather inevitably (given the paper) there were a few letters (mainly after 1931 I think) moaning about the enumerator not keeping info confidental from the maid who answered the door!! One householder put the form in an envelope to stop the maid reading it, but the enumerator opened the envelope and read the details to the maid and asked her opinion on whether the info was correct!! lol

:d :d :d

Nothing has changed in fact today I feel we're probably not as nosey errr well not as much perhaps because we don't have the time what with FH, iPods, iPhones, iTunes, Facebook and forums LOL

[maggie_4_7]

Lets cut to the chase shall we.

When the 1911 was released I found everybody I needed to find except for my Nan and grandfather and my uncle Freddy.

It took me ages to find them over 5 months and I eventually resorted to actually ordering a birth certificate for my aunt who was born in November 1911 even though I knew her birth date. I wanted to see the address on it and lo and behold when I got it I searched on address and there she was - my Nan and my uncle Freddy aged 2 calling herself Mrs Ada White at 10 Essex Street - my uncle Johnny was with his grandmother Worley as we knew in Matilda Street.

So where was grandfather Jack - where do you think - lo and behold that must be him in Pentonville prison after all and yes it was.

When I posed the question to my aunt who by the way was born in 1929 - so its only hearsay - she said oh yeah I remember someone telling me about that and then told me what she had been told - it was unsavoury to say the least but a sign of the times I am quite happy to tell anyone thats interested why he was there.

If my mum had been alive she'd have laughed out loud and thats a fact and said - well I can't use the word she would have used needless to say it would have been something like "the dogs whatsits who cares now"

[kiterunner]

Maggie, just because your mum and other relatives would have been perfectly happy for their 1921 census entries to be made public, it doesn't mean that everyone else would feel the same.

[maggie_4_7]

Maggie, just because your mum and other relatives would have been perfectly happy for their 1921 census entries to be made public, it doesn't mean that everyone else would feel the same.


That's true but obviously democracy rules and if there's enough people that bear weight to the government then it might happen which would be unfortunate for those that feel it shouldn't happen. But you know in life there are always those that are disappointed but by the same token some people will be happy.

[Nell]

1921 wouldn't hold any surprises for my ancestors. I know from letters where my mother's parents were - grandfather was in an army camp, having been called up because of the threat of strikes, and desperate to get out, get a job and marry grannie. She was working at the Priory.

My Dad would have been nearly 4 and living at 165 Stoke Newington Church Street with his parents, lodgers I know about because they are on the electoral roll, and his older brothers.

There are some rellies I'd like to find, but I am happy to be patient. It seems we waited a while for the 1911 census but its here now. And when 1901 was released the whole thing crashed for months as I recall!

[kiterunner]

That's true but obviously democracy rules and if there's enough people that bear weight to the government then it might happen which would be unfortunate for those that feel it shouldn't happen. But you know in life there are always those that are disappointed but by the same token some people will be happy.

Don't want to sound ageist here, but I suspect that a lot of living people who were listed on the 1921 census don't spend a lot of time online looking at petitions and the like and surely their views (whatever they are) would be the most important ones?

[Kit]

I know I'm from the wrong country so the release of the census wont affect this person but my OHs great aunt is hiding a family secret, according to OHs Nana. I can't find it by looking at BMD entries. I suspect that if we had a 1921 census she would be quite upset to have it released early. Nana on the otherhand dearly wants me to find out this secret. lol

Everyone is different and some care and some don't. Those that do care, don't want it released and were around in 1921 should be respected due to their age.

I personally would love it released now to see my grandma and her siblings. But they are all dead and it wont hurt anyone.

[Uncle John]

Don't want to sound ageist here, but I suspect that a lot of living people who were listed on the 1921 census don't spend a lot of time online looking at petitions and the like and surely their views (whatever they are) would be the most important ones?

I suppose there could be a compromise - withhold info. about people potentially less than 100 years old. But that would be an enormous task, so I don't suppose it would even be considered.

[maggie_4_7]

Don't want to sound ageist here, but I suspect that a lot of living people who were listed on the 1921 census don't spend a lot of time online looking at petitions and the like and surely their views (whatever they are) would be the most important ones?

Petitions are a waste of time always have been and online ones are probably about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

I don't think that this issue would be solved by that. I believe Guy Etchells has started a campaign on the government website set up by Nick Clegg asking for opinions on what laws people think should be changed which seems to be the way to go. Of course all opinions on that page can be voiced both for and against any change of law to release the 1921 census not I might add early but at all.

You're probably right not a lot of people over a certain age spend much time online if at all. But perhaps opening it up for debate and trying to get a debate out to the public that might widen out onto TV, radio or in the newpapers and then perhaps they might be given the place to voice their opinion on something they are aware of - be it by letter to Nick Clegg personally or their MP or a goverment representative is probably a good thing.