Agatha Ariel

[Mary from Italy]

Are you there, Libby? :)

Well, I've found something that you might be a little bit interested in :)

While I was looking for your other wills, I thought it was time to have another look for Agatha, so I checked the Death Duty index from 1848 when she married in Paris, to 1852 when her first husband remarried. And this is what I found:

1851 Administrations

Intestate: Giacobbi Agatha

Administrator: Wm B Minet, New Broad St.

Can't read what it says after that, but it probably isn't too important, as it's in the volume and folio columns.

I've checked out Mr Minet, and according to TNA, William Brissault Minet was a Solicitor in New Broad Street, City of London. He died in 1856. A quick Google search shows that he came from a Huguenot family.

I originally put a message on your wills thread to ask Kite if she could look up Agatha's admon in the Probate Calendar, which gives the date and place of death, but of course it won't be there, as it's pre-1858.

Does anyone know if and where any further information might be obtainable? Maybe at Kew?

[Margaret in Burton]

I saw your comment Mary on the other thread to Libby and just KNEW it would be about Agatha.

:):):)

[HarrysMum]

I hoped!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

I wonder if I can get a death cert???????

I wonder if she had more children??????

I wonder if she died intestate because she re-married?????

I just wonder?????

THANK YOU!!!!

[Mary from Italy]

I then started thinking about looking for her death. The Paris BMDs are now online, and I've found her marriage entry there, but no death. However, I don't think all the pre-1860 records have survived, and anyway she may not have died in Paris.

I also checked to see if François remarried, but haven't found anything.

I then had a look for children, and there are two who are possibly interesting, but unfortunately the parents' names aren't given:

Henri Alexandre Giacobbi
4/9/1848? (the date and middle name are hard to read)

Agathe Blanche Giacobbi
Date of birth entered twice on two separate pages: 19/2/1856 and 1/3/1856. No idea if this is two separate children or the same child.

There are some other Giacobbi events, but nothing else that looks particularly interesting. There is a marriage for an Alexandre Giacobbi, but not until 1853, so I assume he isn't Henri's father.

If Agatha died in 1851, Agathe Blanche obviously couldn't be her child, but I wondered if she might be François' child by a second marriage.

Anyway, now we have a much more definite time of death for Agatha, I'll see if I can get somebody on the French genealogy boards to do a look-up.

You'll find the births here, on pages 13-15:
http://canadp-archivesenligne.paris.fr/archives_etat_civil/avant_1860_fichiers_etat_civil_reconstitue/fecr_visu_img.php?registre=V3E_N_1003&type=ECRF&&bdd_en_cours=etat_civil_rec_fichiers&vue_tranche_debut=AD075ER_5MI20865_02405_C&vue_tranche_fin=AD075ER_5MI20865_02433_C&ref_histo=34300&cote=V3E/N%201003

The marriage is here (page 219), but it gives less information than the entry on Ancestry:

http://canadp-archivesenligne.paris.fr/archives_etat_civil/avant_1860_fichiers_etat_civil_reconstitue/fecr_visu_img.php?registre=V3E_M_0016&type=ECRF&&bdd_en_cours=etat_civil_rec_fichiers&vue_tranche_debut=AD075ER_V3E_M_00016_00201_C&vue_tranche_fin=AD075ER_V3E_M_00016_00251_C&ref_histo=51551&cote=V3E/M%2016

[HarrysMum]

Thank you Mary.................I owe you big time now, so I'd better get down to the Beardy museum again.....lol

That birth for Agatha Giacobbi is interesting.......Agatha doesn't seem like a French name???

Agatha's eldest child was Agatha Ariel Clark b 1840. Agatha Kirkby (nee Sawrey) was the grandmother of the "now not missing" Agatha.

Remember that lady on FB???? I did send her a message (in English) but no reply. Might try again.

[Mary from Italy]

Thank you Mary.................I owe you big time now, so I'd better get down to the Beardy museum again.....lol

No problem, I know you've got a lot on your plate at the moment, and the museum isn't going anywhere.

That birth for Agatha Giacobbi is interesting.......Agatha doesn't seem like a French name???


Sorry, that's my typo, it says Agathe.

Remember that lady on FB???? I did send her a message (in English) but no reply. Might try again.

Yes, I sent her a message in Italian at the time (last September), but she never answered (I've changed the name in my quote from your message as she's a living person).

[HarrysMum]

Thanks Mary........I forgot.

Changed now...

[Mary from Italy]

By the way, the register that I searched for Agatha's death is known as the "Reconstructed BMD Register" (16th century - 1859).

According to the site, the pre-1860 Paris BMD records were destroyed by fire in May 1871, and have been partly reconstructed. However, only about a third of the 8 million lost documents have been reconstructed, mainly covering the 19th century.

[Merry]

Does anyone know if and where any further information might be obtainable? Maybe at Kew?


Or the Guildhall Library?

The net has closed loads since I last read anything about Agatha!

[Olde Crone]

Interesting that a married woman was declared intestate in 1851 - I thought a married woman couldn't make a Will anyway, without the permission of her husband.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

I suppose her husband might have died before her. There was a revolution in France in 1848.

[Mary from Italy]

The Guildhall Library held probate and administration act books, 1496-1858, for the Commissary court (London division):

http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/15i.htm

but it's apparently now merged with the LMA:

http://www.history.ac.uk/gh

[kiterunner]

You would need to find what court was responsible for the admon - doesn't it say on the index which court it was?

[Mary from Italy]

This page gives a bit more information (scroll down to the The London Probate Index, 1750-1858:

http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/probate.htm

It links to this site:

http://www.davideastkent.canterhill.co.uk/lp-index.htm

which says that although the index includes 9 London courts, it doesn't include PCC admons, and Agatha's admon was unfortunately in the PCC.

I know nothing about London wills and admons - has anyone ever had to get a pre-1858 admon from London before? David Wright's site makes it sound very difficult.

[Mary from Italy]

You would need to find what court was responsible for the admon - doesn't it say on the index which court it was?

Yes, sorry, Kite, I'd missed that before - it was the PCC.

[kiterunner]

It'll be at Kew, then.

[HarrysMum]

OC................have you found anything that isn't strange about this lot????????

lol

Thank you all so much. I have to shoot off to the hospital as soon as little sis arrives from Dublin.......she'll be whacked.

I'll get back.......I'm not ignoring you, just have to put Dad first today. His surgery is set for midday tomorrow....I'll get some time then (about 10 hours they reckon and I'll need distraction)

Ta

[Mary from Italy]

Hope everything goes well tomorrow, Libby.

[Kit]

So is the mystery of Agatha now solved?

[Mary from Italy]

Well, partly - we already knew that after the divorce from her first husband she remarried in Paris in 1848; we now know that she died intestate between 1848 and 1851, but we don't know where she died or the date, and we don't know if she had any children by her second marriage.

I don't think she died in England; I've tried various searches but I haven't come up with anything, so I'll see if I can find out anything from France. Unfortunately there's no central BMD registry, so unless she actually died in Paris, her death's going to be hard to find.

What we really need next is the admon, which should contain her date of death and address at the time. Unfortunately, although PCC wills are on the TNA site, admons aren't.

Is there anyone going to Kew who might have time to look for it?

[Mary from Italy]

There's just one thing that's puzzling me.

Merry ages ago found some references in the London Gazette to a trust fund in the name of Agatha Clark, otherwise Giacobbi.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/all=giacobbi;exact=agatha/start=1

I've just had another look at the Gazette; there are 8 entries relating to the trust fund (actually 14, but 6 are just cross-references, because the entries are indexed twice).
The earliest is in 1877 and the latest in 1896.

The entries are listed in the section relating to cases where there were funds standing to the credit of the account on 1/9/1875, and the account hadn't been dealt with in the previous 15 years.

The first two entries just say "In the matter of the trust of the annuity of Agatha Clark, otherwise Giacobbi, deceased".

The others give the following information:

When the trust fund was set up: 1851.
Date of the order directing the last transaction to be made: 29/5/1857
Date and nature of last transaction: 19/6/1857, payment out.

As the fund was set up in England, it was presumably arranged by her family, but it was set up in 1851, which is the year she died. Was it set up after her death, and who would the beneficiary/ies have been?

Her next of kin would have been her second husband (if alive), any children by him, and presumably her children by the first marriage.

I wonder if her first husband arranged it so that his children could get hold of money left to Agatha by someone in the family? Do you know if her parents left her anything, Libby?

Still, it seems odd that the last payment was made in 1857, but the account wasn't closed, because there was still money left in it in 1896. I wonder why?

[Olde Crone]

I wonder if the trust fund was set up by the solicitor dealing with the intestacy?

If Agatha was in receipt of an annuity that MIGHT explain why she died intestate, despite my earlier comment that a married woman rarely left a Will - this annuity would be her own and not marital property, I THINK, and as such she would be entitled to bequeath it how she wished.

I agree, it is imperative to see details of the admon.

OC

[HarrysMum]

Hi all~~~~

Very long day at the hospital with Dad, but all looks good there...

I'm in Brisbane and my tree is on my computer 300kms away but if it helps...

Agatha's mother Elizabeth Ariel, nee Naylor, died 1837 and left a will. That will was contested by someone (maybe her husband???)
She actually had loads more money than her husband.

Then after her death, Myles Ariel (Agatha's father) married Lucretia Clark (Agatha's husband's sister).
Then Myles dies 1840 and leaves everything to Lucretia with a bit about giving his children 5000 pounds each after Lucretia's death.

That was 1889. There was only one child still living. That was Mary Erye Ariel who went on to marry Roberto Bompiani. We've sorted Mary.

Daughter Elizabeth Naylor Farr died 1860s
Son Myles came to Australia with his wife and children and promptly went AWOL.
Daughter Agatha.

[Kit]

Glad all went well with your Dad.

[Mary from Italy]

Very long day at the hospital with Dad, but all looks good there...

Very pleased to hear that.

Agatha's mother Elizabeth Ariel, nee Naylor, died 1837 and left a will. That will was contested by someone (maybe her husband???)


I take it you have her will? (I see it's on the TNA site) How do you know it was contested? I wonder if that's where the annuity came from.

[Kit]

This is fun, lets all ask Libby questions while her tree and paperwork are 300kms away.

[Mary from Italy]

Well, she did say she needed distracting :)

[HarrysMum]

I think I might ignore those last two posts.......lol

I do have that will and the contesting part of the will is on the bottom of it. Can't remember the exact words......lol

[Kit]

I thought those 2 posts were quite caring.

And what sort of genealogist are you if you can't remember the exact wording of a will? Family distractions are no excuse. :)

[HarrysMum]

Copied from an earlier question about this will.

This will was written in 1823 by Elizabeth Ariel, wife of Myles Ariel.

This is the last bit...


"On the 1st June 1839 Admon with the will annexed of the Goods Chattels and Credits of Elizabeth Ariel wife of Myles Ariel, late of the city of Bristol deceased was granted to Robert Leonard and Edward Jarrett Ransford the Executors haveing been first sworn by Canon duly to administer. The said Myles Ariel the lawful husband of the said deceased and as such the only person entitled to her personal estate over which she had us disposing power and concerning which she is dead intestate having first consented as by Acts of Courts appear."


In the will, Elizabeth gives quite a bit to her children, some were married at the time.
What does the "intestate" mean in this sense?
Would Myles just have got everything?

I read that prior to 1882 a wife had to have their husband's permission to write a will.
I imagine she had his permission as it is witnessed by solicitors.
Strangely one solicitor was her husband's future second wife's brother.
(Think Agatha, for those who know)

[Mary from Italy]

I do have that will and the contesting part of the will is on the bottom of it. Can't remember the exact words......lol

Oh, I hadn't realised it would be written on the will. How annoying it doesn't say who contested it.

I think you need to find somebody who's going to Kew, who'd be willing to have a look for Agatha's admon, and also maybe check to see if there's a file for the two Chancery cases: Agatha's annuity fund and the challenge to Elizabeth Ariel's will.

I suspect it's not an easy task, though.

[Mary from Italy]

"On the 1st June 1839 Admon with the will annexed of the Goods Chattels and Credits of Elizabeth Ariel wife of Myles Ariel, late of the city of Bristol deceased was granted to Robert Leonard and Edward Jarrett Ransford the Executors haveing been first sworn by Canon duly to administer. The said Myles Ariel the lawful husband of the said deceased and as such the only person entitled to her personal estate over which she had us disposing power and concerning which she is dead intestate having first consented as by Acts of Courts appear."


In the will, Elizabeth gives quite a bit to her children, some were married at the time.
What does the "intestate" mean in this sense?
Would Myles just have got everything?


No idea. I think admon with the will annexed was usually granted when there was a will, but the executor had died or refused to act. I can't see why the deceased should be called "intestate", though.

[Merry]

Was she intestate because the will was invalid and that was because she didn't have the right to write one without her husband's consent? (I have no idea!)

Excuse grammar, I have only woken up recently!

[HarrysMum]

I can't remember but OC might remember what it was.

[Mary from Italy]

I think that must be it. The familysearch wiki says:

Before 1882 a wife who died before her husband could not make a will except with her husband’s consent or under a marriage settlement created before her marriage.

https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/England_Probate_Records

[Kit]

I can't remember but OC might remember what it was.

OC's on her "holiday" with the curtains closed, no phone etc. So she should be around soon lol.

[kiterunner]

Could it be that it said "no disposing power" rather than "us disposing power"? In which case it is saying that she died intestate with regard to her personal estate because she was not entitled to dispose of it in her will. But she may have been able to leave something else in her will that didn't count as part of her personal estate?

[HarrysMum]

I honestly don't know????

What I do know is that her son David died unmarried between Elizabeth writing the will and dying.

Her daughter, also Elizabeth, may have got something. She married solicitor Henry Farr and died in Wales 1867...........Ooooh.....I don't have a will for her....lol

Her daughter, Agatha, was only 15 when Elizabeth died and 17 when she married Edward Clark.

Her son, Myles, wouldn't have got much as he came here and didn't have much according to records.

Her youngest daughter, Mary was only 3 when Elizabeth died.

We've probably done this will to death on another site, but I thought maybe Lucretia's will might shed some light. At least it should show if Mary got her money.

[mfwebb]

I joined this forum yesterday specifically to be able to post a comment to this thread after lurking for a few days.

Let me say at the outset that I have nothing material to contribute to this thread and I have no family connection whatsoever to the Ariel or Clark families.

I would, however, like to express huge thanks to all who have contributed and I am now anxious to find out more, purely out of historical interest.

Let me explain where my interest lies. My 2 x great aunt, Ann Laycock, lived at “Lansdown House, Tyndalls Park, Bristol” in 1879. She was the informant of the death of her brother John Denton Laycock, my great grandfather. This information comes from his death certificate. I assume that she was living-in as a domestic servant.

Having recently retired, I have started to pick up on things which were unimportant when I was working due to lack of time – I have been researching my family history for 25 years.

I began my research into Landsdown House by checking for its occupants in the 1881 census – I knew my ancestor wasn’t there in 1881, but the search led me to Lucretia Ariel (widow). I traced her back through all census returns to 1841 – she was a widow in all and there was no apparent husband in the 1841 census. I found the index to her will in the probate calendars. I was intrigued in the census returns for Clifton about the number of people who were living on “Dividends” or “Income from railway dividends”. This led me to check the shareholders register of the GWR where I found Lucretia Ariel listed twice. This led me to Hannah Matilda Clark, Lucretia’s sister, and her will in the Probate Index. I have searched for Myles Ariel – I was surprised to find it is a more common name than I expected. I located a death for Miles Kirby Eyre Ariel in 1849 and a Miles Ariel (aged 20) living with Henry Farr (aged 30) in Wales in the 1841 Census. I quickly realised that neither of these were Lucretia’s husband.

Googling for Lucretia Ariel led me to this thread about Agatha Ariel.

The question which has always intrigued me is how an ancestor of mine (who was born in Wortley near Sheffield, Yorkshire in 1857) came to be in service in a household in Bristol in 1879. She was back in Yorkshire by 1881. I suppose I shall never know, but the history of Landsdown Villa and its occupants is fascinating me.

If anyone has a “potted history” of the Ariel/Clark families I would love to read it.

[Margaret in Burton]

If anyone has a “potted history” of the Ariel/Clark families I would love to read it.


You may regret saying that when Libby reads this.:D:D:D

Welcome to GF

Your name seems familiar, do you run a surnames index? Maybe I'm getting you mixed up with someone else.

[Kit]

Hello malcom and welcome to our site.

If you search the research boards for Ariel I'm sure you will find more threads. When Libby comes around I'm sure she will fill you in. The Ariels have caused a lot of trouble for us all. lol

Just remember you did ask for more info. :)

[Merry]

If anyone has a “potted history” of the Ariel/Clark families I would love to read it.


That made me laugh too! There ain't any such thing!!!

Welcome to GF :)

[tenterfieldjulie]

As it is now nearly 12.30 am in Australia,
I must go to bed as I believe I am going to be awoken rather early,
with squeals from the other end of town
when Libby reads a few threads back. :d:d

[Margaret in Burton]

If anyone has a “potted history” of the Ariel/Clark families I would love to read it.


You may regret saying that when Libby reads this.:D:D:D

Welcome to GF

Your name seems familiar, do you run a surnames index? Maybe I'm getting you mixed up with someone else.

I think I am getting you mixed up with someone else.

[mfwebb]

I do hope I haven't stirred up a hornets nest here -- forgive me if I have, as I don't want to cause anyone any trouble.

It's just that history in general fascinates me and if I find any connection to my ancestors in any historical context I am anxious to know more. Hence my request to find out more about the Ariel/Clark connection with particular reference to Landsdown Villa.

I will search the forums for Ariel as suggested and look forward to reading more.

No, I do not run a surname index.

Many thanks.

[Margaret in Burton]

No, Malcolm no hornets next. It's a sort of in house joke.

More like a can of worms

Everyone groans when Libby mentions her Ariel's

[HarrysMum]

Morning all~~~~~~~~~~~

Welcome Malcolm...................although you may be forever sorry you ever noticed this thread.

A potted history of the Ariels and Clarks???? Have you got a spare year to listen??? lol

As to your question about why or how a girl would come from Yorkshire to be in service in Bristol.....I can't answer, although I will tell you it's not that uncommon. Also, the Ariels, in particular, travelled all over the country (the world as well).

If you send me a pm (private message) with your email address, I'd be happy to send whatever you'd like.

The story, in a very tiny time is.....

The Ariels were a Bristol family as were the Clarks.

Myles Ariel and Elizabeth Naylor married 1815 in Yorkshire (Elizabeth came from Cleckheaton) They were back in Bristol for the first baby. I'd say this marriage was possibly "arranged" for business purposes.

One of their children was Agatha, born 1822. In 1839, she married Edward Clark in Bristol.
Agatha's mother, Elizabeth, had died in 1837.

Later in 1839, Agatha's father, Myles, married Edward Clark's older sister, Lucretia.

1840.....Myles Ariel dies.

1845.....Edward Clark divorces Agatha..........the story of that is very long and involved. If you are interested I'll give you the details. Maybe you can be the one who breaks the mystery.
There were 6 children to Agatha and Edward.....last one born during the divorce.

Lucretia Clark then has custody of the youngest Ariel child, Mary Eyre Ariel. Mary was the child of Myles and Elizabeth, born 1834.

Mary later (much later) married in Italy.

The Ariels had brides from Lancashire and Yorkshire through the times, always girls from wealthy families.

If your family member was in service (Sorry.....I did read your post, but it's early here) then my bet is she was probably a 'nicer' person than those she worked for.......lol

[HarrysMum]

Just re-read your post Malcolm.

Myles Kirkby Eyre Ariel was born in1849, not died. He was the son of Myles Kirkby Ariel and Emily Mary Ann Weaver. Myles and Emily came to Australia in 1855 and Myles disappeared (another story). Baby Myles grew up here and I have his tree. My husband's great grandfather was Baby Myles' brother, Richard Thomas Weaver Ariel.

Agatha's older sister, Elizabeth married Henry Farr, a solicitor (also from Bristol) but living in Wales.

[Kit]

I do hope I haven't stirred up a hornets nest here -- forgive me if I have, as I don't want to cause anyone any trouble.

No Malcolm forgive us. There is no hornets nest. A few people on here have well known families. Well known to us, anyway, and we pretend to run a mile whenever someone asks about them.

Now if you start asking about Allenders and Holdens we will be having words. ;)

A potted history of the Ariels and Clarks???? Have you got a spare year to listen??? lol ....

Libby probably did that all from memory. Impressive isn't it?

[tenterfieldjulie]

Well done Lib. I'm most impressed too.
Don't take any notice of the banter Malcolm :d:d
- it's just some of us struggle to get back to the 1700s - ;(;(
and others with surnames starting with A - go on and on and on and on......
find them in books - in France - in all sorts of intereting places lol Julie
You don't have an interest in Allenders too? :eek::eek:

[HarrysMum]

Actually Toni......I couldn't remember what year Mary married Roberto........lol

[mfwebb]

Morning all~~~~~~~~~~~

If you send me a pm (private message) with your email address, I'd be happy to send whatever you'd like . . . l

Many thanks Libby. PM sent.

[mfwebb]

Just re-read your post Malcolm.

Myles Kirkby Eyre Ariel was born in1849, not died.

My mistake Libby. A mis-quote on my part. I do have the BIRTH reference from the GRO Index.

As for struggling to get back to the 1700's -- I am stuck with my 4x great grandfather William Webb, born about 1749 somewhere in Bedfordshire -- and I've been stuck there for over 10 years on that line. But I have got back to 1691 down the line of his wife (4x ggm) Alice Brightman to her grandfather Richard Brightman, and then back another 4 generations to 1550 through his wife Sarah Chapman, this being John Chapman my 10 x great grandfather born about 1550 in Lidlington Bedfordshire.

All these connections, and more, were personally researched during a week-long visit to the Bedfordshire Archives in 1996 -- but it took me about 4 years after that (on and off) to absorb the research and the data to piece it all together. It's easy to gather data from original parish records when your ancestors lived for generations in the same place, especially when you have bought copies of the transcripts to enable research to continue at home at a more leisurely pace.

Many thanks to everyone for the history lessons into the Ariel/Clark connections.

All the best.