Question about Fs and Ss

[Merry]

BK6 updated from this thread

Sorry, don't know the proper term, but it's about the use of that 'f' shaped character (long s?) as a lower case 's' which sometimes confuses people not used to looking at older documents etc.

Now I know the use of this character vanished from newspapers about 1803ish, having looked at the Times and the Gales newspapers site. However, I've seen it used as the first part as a double s (not so sure about as a single s?) for a long time afterwards in handwriting on the censuses and other places, but maybe the people writing were at least middle aged, so may have stuck with the method they were taught when young.

I'm trying to determine when the use of this character stopped for either a single s or double s (different times?). I realise this isn't an exact science, but would like your opinions please. :)

[Olde Crone]

I don't really know Merry, but I am sure(?am I?) that once formal compulsory education came into force (1875) then the antiquated long s would no longer be taught.

I would imagine the long s was learned and taught by church clerics and scribes and once their influence had waned, it would gradually be dropped.

Sorry, this doesn't help much!

(DURH!) forgot to say - my grandfather went to University in Germany before WW1 and always used the long s, till his death in 1972.

OC

[Merry]

OC Your last comment is especially unhelpful!!! lolol

I'm trying to get more evidence to date a sampler. The people who own it say it was stitched by someone in about 1850-1855, but I think it's stitched by an aunt of that person which would make it about 1800. It has the long S for a single s and where there is a double s it uses the long s twice.

I have other evidence for it being earlier - the name on it is that of the aunt, with just one forename, but the niece had two forenames, the name on the sampler is her middle name. The place name on it is where the aunt was born, the niece being born 50 miles away and remaining in her birth town her whole life. I was just hoping I might be able to present some further evidence to support my case (even if it's not conclusive!)

[Merry]

Here's a clue....

I googled the first line and found 'it' was written in 1852, which clearly is not the evidence I was after! lol!! But now I'm not sure if it's refering at a hymn and if 1852 refers to the words or the tune?

The first line is:

"at Jacob's well a stranger sought"

But the second line isn't

"His drooping frame to cheer" (that's the 1852 hymn)

instead it's:

"His ardent thirst to clear"

But if I google that, I only get one hit which tells me nothing. I don't have time to type any more, and the text of the sampler is hard to read!

Any ideas? I have to go out now, so am not ignoring you!

If I could prove it's definitely 1852 at least that would be an answer, but it still seems odd the place name is wrong!

[Olde Crone]

Hmm, I think in 1850/55, it is quite possible that the long s was still being taught, either in Dame School or Sunday School.

Sorry!

OC

[Mark Dudley]

Did you find this hit Merry: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RrCkd23sStcC&pg=PA315&lpg=PA315&dq=His+ardent+thirst+to+clear&source=bl&ots=hSjHw340U7&sig=ZrQ9679g0NODyulWj6Mu6EBe98U&hl=en&ei=z5D_S5faHJ280gT53Jj3Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=His%20ardent%20thirst%20to%20clear&f=false

Dates from 1820

[Merry]

No I hadn't seen that link Mark, thanks.

Erm, I can't see the 1820 ref though? (trying to speed read that stuff isn't working! lol)

[Merry]

Oh, you mean the mag is an 1820 edition?

So I still need to know when that poem was written.

[Merry]

I've just found it printed in "Beauties of the Poets, being a Collection of Moral and Sacred Poetry from the most Eminent Authors" dated 1806. :)



I need to get it back a bit further as my potential sample-worker was born in 1789 and I think it likely she would have worked this as a child.

[Merry]

Pity the one I'm trying to date hasn't got the date sewn into it like this one:

http://madelena.com/detailSamplersAllHigh.asp?offset=23&id=14764

I have just found another record of it in a book of the same name and author as the one in my previous post, but dated 1800. Unfortunately this is only a transcript though, so it's not really proof the poem had been written by then.

[Merry]

Ooh, I've found the same poem printed in 1800.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QC0gAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+beauties+of+the+poets&hl=en&ei=PbX_S-jXGoXD4gait9jLDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jacob's&f=false

That's probably near enough..........

[Nell]

I'm sure I've seen that funny fs on 1861 census forms.

In German they have a funny thing that looks a bit like a B that is used in place of ss.

Now I'm involved in the new phonics at school I can't begin to tell you how complicated the English language is. Just glad I didn't know until I'd already learned to read!

[Merry]

Now I'm involved in the new phonics at school I can't begin to tell you how complicated the English language is. Just glad I didn't know until I'd already learned to read!

LOL! Please, it's OK, you don't need to begin to tell me!!! :rolleyes::d

I'm sure I've seen that funny fs on 1861 census forms.

I agree :(