View Full Version : I've lost Isabella Lishman
Uncle John
15-05-10, 11:00
A couple of years ago, in Another Place, Merry and others helped me partly unravel a mystery disappearance. I've been prompted to have another go after a cousin told me a portrait of the son (my and his g-g-grandfather) had been "found" (it wasn't really lost) after a family bereavement. So here goes.
Isabella Ridley was baptised at All Saints, Newcastle on Tyne on 14 Sep 1817 (IGI Batch C023697 - extracted but no source quoted).
On 14 Dec. 1839 she married William Robinson Lishman, a widower with 3 children at St John the Baptist, Newcastle (I have the certificate).
1841 census HO 107 Piece 824 Book 11 Folio 13 page 19:
William and Isabella are at 8 Blenheim Street Westgate, aged 40 and 30, living with Jane Snowball, 55 a widow. A lot of the ages on that page are exact. The daughter of the first marriage is with a relative elsewhere. I haven't yet found the two sons in 1851.
Their son John James Lishman was born on 28 Aug 1841 at Westgate (I have the cert.).
1851 census HO107 Piece 2404 Folio 158 Page 40:
Isabella (32, married, plain sewer) is lodging at 8 Buckingham Street Westgate with Elizabeth Robson, 86 on parish relief.
1851 census HO107 Piece 2402 Folio 374 Page 16:
William (married, 54, retired clerk) and John James are at Low Fell, Gateshead, lodging with James Robson and family.
I've got William and John James in 1861 but no sign of Isabella. Previous suggestions have included her being in an institution or remarrying bigamously or perhaps dying. A death of Isabella Lishman in 1879 has been discounted because someone found this one married to the wrong person in the previous census.
Any fresh ideas please?
A death of Isabella Lishman in 1879 has been discounted because someone found this one married to the wrong person in the previous census.
Can you remember the details of the other Isabella and husband from 1871? I have looked and looked, but I can't see who would be the 'other' Isabella who died in 1879.
Uncle John
15-05-10, 20:00
This was the death you found in 1879:
Name: Isabella Lishman
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1815
Year of Registration: 1879
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 64
District: Newcastle Upon Tyne
County: Northumberland, Tyne and Wear
Volume: 10b
Page: 60
Uncle John
15-05-10, 20:02
And this is what Louise (Meridian Line) said about that Isabella:
I've found the Isabella who died in 1879....she was married to Thomas ( he's born Belford)...he has remarried to Betsey in 81.
Oh right. I had dismissed that couple as Isabella was only 50 in 1871 and 64 nine year later, but that is right that Thomas had remarried (in 1880). Maybe that Isabella lost a few years on the census because she was older than her husband?
I have the death of Isabella as March 1867 in Hexham district. My source was private papers, but it can be found on FreeBMD. She was born around 1796.
Her husband's sons from his previous marriage to Julia Dyer were William Shevill Lishman b1824 and Edward Hudson Lishman b1826. You can find a little bit about the family on my website www.jdwright.myzen.co.uk, following the links >Lishman >James Lishman of Cartmel >William's family.
Afraid I can't throw any light on the 1861 census. Hope you find her!
Jay.
Uncle John
07-03-11, 16:11
Hi Jay, fancy meeting you here! I'm not sure that we've corresponded before but I've certainly looked at your website many times.
John
Hi John,
Nice to see you here. Hope you have enjoyed my website.
Jay
Uncle John
07-03-11, 18:51
Since she's my ancestor I've invested my £9.25 and eagerly await the result.
Uncle John
14-03-11, 21:36
Back to the drawing board. This Isabella was the widow of a stonemason, and the family is all together in 1861 at Horsley, Hexham.
Oooh dear and that death was recorded on the Gale Newspaper site too.
Are Elizabeth and James Robson related?
Uncle John
15-03-11, 20:13
Oooh dear and that death was recorded on the Gale Newspaper site too.
Are Elizabeth and James Robson related?
The death in Horsley, Hexham? Any chance of a precis please? The death cert. says she's 71 and the widow of William Lishman, stonemason - the exact family I've found in 1861, all born in and around Hexham. The informant is the doctor in attendance (paralysis and dropsy - sounds nasty), who practised in Wylam.
There seems to be some sort of a Robson link but neither I nor any of the other Lishman researchers known to me have cracked it.
It doesn't say much:
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, February 1, 1867
At Horsley, Tyneside, on the 14th ult., Isabella Lishman, aged 70, relict of the late Mr William Lishman, mason.
I've found more Isabella Lishmans in 1861 than I really wanted to find. Of course, putting Isabella also brings up Elizabeth...lol
Not one of them fit your lady UJ..
Chrissie Smiff
15-03-11, 20:52
Hi Uncle John
Are you sure about that Isabella in 1851? She seems very young compared to 30 in 1841.
How about the death in March 1853 - Castle Ward 10b 129. They are living in Castle ward in 1841.
p.s. I know he says married in 1851 and 1861 but that could just have been the enumerator slipping up perhaps? Or perhaps he couldn't bear to call himself a widower. I'm being fanciful now aren't I.
Chrissie
Chrissie Smiff
15-03-11, 21:06
It doesn't say much:
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, February 1, 1867
At Horsley, Tyneside, on the 14th ult., Isabella Lishman, aged 70, relict of the late Mr William Lishman, mason.
Well William Robinson Lishman's death isn't registered until June 1867 in Tynemouth. So that doesn't look like the right one. Also, he was a clerk wasn't he
Well William Robinson Lishman's death isn't registered until June 1867 in Tynemouth. So that doesn't look like the right one. Also, he was a clerk wasn't he
I thought we already knew it wasn't the right one? :confused:
Are you sure about that Isabella in 1851? She seems very young compared to 30 in 1841.
She should have been down as 20 in 1841 if she was b in 1817. Maybe as her OH was a couple of decades older they didn't want to disclose their ages?!
Uncle John
15-03-11, 22:08
It doesn't say much:
The Newcastle Courant etc (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England), Friday, February 1, 1867
At Horsley, Tyneside, on the 14th ult., Isabella Lishman, aged 70, relict of the late Mr William Lishman, mason.
100% match with the "wrong" family.
Uncle John
15-03-11, 22:13
Hi Uncle John
Are you sure about that Isabella in 1851? She seems very young compared to 30 in 1841.
How about the death in March 1853 - Castle Ward 10b 129. They are living in Castle ward in 1841.
The 1851 entry matches with her husband.
I'm wondering about the 1853 one. What's the locality for Castle Ward? I hadn't thought of it as part of Newcastle. I feel another investment coming on. Sure as eggs is eggs someone else in the family has/had this certificate!
Nothing helpful in the National Probate Calendar, though several other Lishman rellies appear there.
kiterunner
15-03-11, 22:28
The National Probate Calendar doesn't go as far back as 1853.
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/castle%20ward.html
I would suggest you order from the local office and say you don't want the cert unless it's for an adult betwenn x and Y years etc, as there are quite a few births knocking around in the years before 1853.
Has anyone checked the NBI or equiv?
UJ..............do you have a Cuthbert Lishman who died 1811 Tynemouth?
Chrissie Smiff
16-03-11, 10:17
Have you ever connected the Jane Snowball, that William and Isabella are living with in 1841, with the Sarah Snowball who married Jay's ancestor George Lishman in Sunderland Parish Church in 1858 Uncle John?
I understand from Jay's website that, as yet, there has never been a connection made between these two families. With a name like Snowball though you have to think that there is a likely connection somewhere.
Uncle John
16-03-11, 14:41
UJ..............do you have a Cuthbert Lishman who died 1811 Tynemouth?
No Cuthberts in my tree, but plenty of folk who came from Tynemouth.
Have you ever connected the Jane Snowball, that William and Isabella are living with in 1841, with the Sarah Snowball who married Jay's ancestor George Lishman in Sunderland Parish Church in 1858 Uncle John?
I understand from Jay's website that, as yet, there has never been a connection made between these two families. With a name like Snowball though you have to think that there is a likely connection somewhere.
The only Snowball I have in my tree is married-in to my OH's ancestors in Sunderland. But none of my Lishmans have a Sunderland conection.
It's some time since I delved into Jay's site. There are many lines of Lishmans, all over the country/world. Many of them don't connect into my lines.
Chrissie Smiff
16-03-11, 19:13
I am pretty sure that I have the son William Shevill Lishman in 1851 -
According to Jay's site he married Frances Bell Gardner in 1848 in South Shields and became a partner in a shipping firm in Newcastle on Tyne.
In 1851 I believe this is them as the age and the initials FB for his wife look promising -
William Lishman - Age 26 - born c1825 - Relation Head - born Northd,Newcastle - He is a Ships broker
Wife - F B Lishman - Age 23
Son - Wm LIshman 4
Son - I D Lishman 2 months
Son - Edward S Lishman 2 months
All born Newcastle Northumberland.
and 2 servants
Isabella M Little 22
Elizabeth Waggett 15
Living at Elswick Row - Civil parish Elswick in Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland
Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: Westgate
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2404; Folio: 541; Page: 39; GSU roll: 87082.
Uncle John
16-03-11, 21:04
Chrissie - William Shevill is the eldest of 3 from William Robinson Lishman's first marriage (to Mary Julia Dyer who died in 1831). As you say, he was a shipowner who ended up owning Corchester Tower, a posh house near Corbridge. There was actually total of 15 children, several of whom died in infancy. Wife Frances was 47 when she had the last one, but still lived to the ripe old age of 84.
The family is easy to follow through the censuses (with extra help from BMDs mentioned in the Newcastle Courant). The mysterious Isabella is the only person I can't satisfactorily kill off. I'm only 50/50 confident about my investment in the 1853 death certificate.
Uncle John
21-03-11, 22:12
One more eliminated. The Isabella who died in 1853 in Castle Ward was a farmer's wife.
So, do you think she shacked up with someone else and therefore vanished from our point of view?
Uncle John
22-03-11, 14:22
Dunno. It's a complete mystery. I don't think William Robinson Lishman left a will, which could have thrown some light on it.
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