View Full Version : Joseph George White - is he one of "mine" ?
I am looking for information which might link the above to my family tree.
Joseph George White was born 1822 in Rotherhite Surrey, baptised at St Mary Rotherhithe, to Joseph and Mary Ann (nee Brazill) WHITE, and I want to find out if he is the same Joseph George White who was a cabinetmaker, Undertaker and Mayor of Morpeth NSW.
On the death certificate of Mary Brazill, 15 Sep 1865, Newcastle NSW, the informant was her grandson J.G. White, and the undertaker had exactly the same name. J.G.White gave the names of Mary's children as Mary age 67, Sophia aged 64, Elizabeth aged 60 and William aged 50. William was a witness to her burial. Sophia was still alive in England, but my research leads me to believe that Elizabeth died in 1845 at Morpeth NSW. So was Mary Jnr alive in 1865 or not ?
The "grandson" bit was a surprise to me, as well as Mary, as I thought I had traced all of Mary and Thomas Brazills descendents !!
The IGI shows the younger three children born to Thomas and Mary Brazill in Yarmouth (plus Elizabeth Smith Brazil who died in infancy) but not Mary.
The LMA records on ancestry show a marriage for Mary Ann Brazell in 1821 in Lewisham Kent to Joseph White (Sophia and William married in Lee Kent). And a baptism for Joseph George White in 1822 (father Joseph a mastmaker)
So now I have a smallish tree of the family of Joseph George White of Morpeth! I am waiting for his death certificate (1912, but no parents named) to hopefully tell me where he was born or when.
So I need to find Joseph and Mary White in a census or something. But as Mary and Thomas Brazill, Elizabeth and husband and William and wife and children all came to NSW before the 1841 census, they may be gone too.
Any help appreciated, I hope that death cert comes through soon !!
Diane
Sue from Southend
03-05-10, 08:36
Joseph and Mary White had a few other children - have you got them?
Mary Ann White Baptism 12 May 1824 St Mary, Rotherhithe Southwark
William Thomas White Baptism 23 Dec 1825 St Mary, Rotherhithe Southwark
Henry Leonard White Baptism 28 Nov 1827 St Mary, Rotherhithe Southwark
Louisa White Baptism 18 Feb 1831 St Mary, Rotherhithe
But I'm not finding them on 1841, yet.
Passengers' lists and maybe Joseph George White's marriage cert might help. Fingers crossed the info you want is on the cert you're waiting for.
Sue,
yes I did find them in the baptisms, but nothing further, like a death in Rotherhithe.
I did find a death for a William Thomas White in Newcastle NSW in 1894, the son of Joseph and Mary, but nothing for any of the others. It's difficult to pin down marriages for Mary Ann or Louisa.
Nell,
If they came out before 1841, the passenger lists are sparse in that period. But I will keep trying. J.G. Whiite married in the Hunter Valley NSW in 1845, before Civil Registration started here, so I am not sure how much detail will be in the marriage record, possibly on name and occupation.
THere are all sorts of little indications - the Brazill family seemed particularly close - Thomas and Mary came out to NSW to join Elizabeth and her husband Samuel Brazill (a cousin) and William Thomas Francis Brazill and his wife came on the same ship and all settled in the Hunter Valley, near Morpeth. Three Dawson grandchildren, Samuel, William and Laura also came to NSW. So it would not surprise me if Joseph and Mary, and their children, or just Joseph George decided to join them out here.
J.G. White was the undertaker for Samuel Dawsons funeral - which seems a little odd as Samuel did not live in Morpeth - but if J.G. was his cousin, it might make more sense. No where in any of the newspaper accounts of their time as Aldermen on Morpeth and Maitland Councils does it mention a relationship, but they never seemed interested in those kind of things.
I am really holding out for the death cert hoping it might say born in Surrey or Rotherhithe, even if it does not name his parents. Meanwhile, back to the passenger lists (or and convict lists, maybe I should look there too)
Di
Possible arrival - on the barque Coromandel in Oct 2 1838, from Plymouth, Mr and Mrs White and 2 children. (Joseph George and William Thomas, perhaps). It fits between the other arrivals. Looking for more details.
Today (yes Sunday), I received (by email) the death cert for Joseph George White who died in Newtown in Sydney, but was buried at Morpeth in the Hunter Valley.
From what is on it, I still cannot prove that Joseph is the son of Joseph and Mary Ann (nee Brazill) White, but it seems more likely than not.
The registration was made by Wm Guilfoyle, friend, living at the same address. It says he was 90 years old (born 1822), although his headstone says 89 yrs. He was apparently born in London England and migrated about 75 yrs before death (15 yrs old about 1837), which fits in with what I had thought to be the case if he is the one I want.
Unfortunately, no parents are named on the certificate, and I very much doubt whether his 1845 marriage registration will either.
However, one of the witnesses to his burial is F Brazill, who I calculate to be Francis James Brazill, born in 1855 in NSW, who would be his first cousin. Francis lived in Kogarah in southern Sydney, so I can think of no other reason for him to journey over 100 miles in 1912 to witness the burial of someone. No other F Brazill died in NSW between 1912 and 1979.
So now I will be off to the library to check the marriage of Joseph George White and Julia Ryan, maybe some witnesses !!. Also to State Records to check into early passenger listings and wills (and Sydney Harbour pilots in the 1830s).
This was a great Mothers Day present - I am glad I went to the trouble of getting a posssibly unrelated death certificate.
Di
That's great news Di..........you have spurned me on to find some more of my lot. I seem to be useless at finding the early Australian records.
I am so hopeful now, I want to find out as much as I can about the Brazills and Whites, the earliest of my ancestors to come to New South Wales.
Libby, for really early records, pre civil registration, the Colonial Secretary's Records, and the Blue Books are probably the best source of information - they are all at State Records, I think and there are indexes on microfilm, or cards. I think that's where I will have to look for more information.
Part of what I want to know is about Harbour Pilots in the 1830s, and State Records is definitely the place to start - the colony was a bureacracy, they kept information about EVERYONE. Some of really early convict records are inaccurate with names, but when you sort that, the information is there.
Di
Ooohhh, another bit of the puzzle emerges ..
I posted this query on the Hunter Valley website (local for Morpeth NSW) and a lady joined to reply that she is related to JG White's step-brother !!
Joseph White died in 1832 (in Rotherhithe, licensed victualler) and his widow, Mary Ann remarried John RUTTER (carpenter). By finding her in the census, I have been able to find that she was born in Deptford Kent. Pity the marriage certificate (1833) did not name her father. At least one of her children with John Rutter and one of his children from a previous marriage, and corresponded back to family in England, with letter surviving !!!
Off to scour the Deptford baptisms for 1798-1800 for Mary Ann.
Di
Uncle John
23-05-10, 19:52
Pity the marriage certificate (1833) did not name her father.
Prior to civil registration, so you get what the vicar recorded.
Prior to civil registration, so you get what the vicar recorded.
And sometimes that was not very much at all. And the witnesses are not family members, so no help there either..
DI
Update Update
Patience is rewarded !!
On the very useful Hunter Balley forum, another contact - from another descendent of J.G. White. That part of the family knows that JG came out to NSW "with his Brazell uncles" !!!!!. That seems to be the part of the puzzle needed - our Brazills are the only ones who came to NSW in the time period.
Off to check more passenger lists.
Di
And today, the death certificate for William Thomas WHite, brother of J.G.White which shows his birthplace as Rotherhithe and parents Joseph WHite and Mary Brazill, so we are on the right track !!!
William never married but settled in Morpeth with the rest of the clan
Di
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