View Full Version : Eliza EMMS - MFFM
OH’s MFFM
Name - "official" name:
Eliza HEMING [Bap] EMMS [MC] HEMBS [son's BC]
Date and place of birth:
1823 Upleadon, Gloucestershire
Names of parents:
John Hemms/Emms and Elizabeth PREEDY
Date and place of baptism:
9 Jun 1823, Upleadon, Glos
Details of each of his or her marriages:
9 Dec 1852 married William Williams, Labourer at Redmarley, Glos. They were both single, full ages, both residences given as Redmarley. His father was Thomas Williams, Labourer. The witnesses were Joseph Emms and Hannah Rollings [Joseph believed to be Eliza's brother. She also had a sister called Hannah]
1864 William Williams dies Redmarley, buried Staunton, Glos.
Sep Q 1867 Eliza WILLIAMS married Joseph RUSSELL, Newent district.
Feb 1869 Joseph RUSSELL dies at Staunton.
Occupation(s):
Gloveress
Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK):
1841 Census:
1852 (marriage) Redmarley, Worcs
1854 Bromsberrow, Worcs – baptism of son William
1857 Redmarley, Worcs – baptism of daughter Margaret
1861 Census: Should be with William, be cannot be found.
1871 Census:
Eliza Russell, Wid, 47, Gloveress, Upleadon
Thomas Russel, son, 25, Farm Labourer, Upleadon
Margarett Russell, dau, 13, Gloveress, Redmarley
William Bartlett, vis, 35, Farm Labourer, Staunton
1881 Census:
Eliza Russell, wid, 58, Upleadon
Thomas Williams, son, 37, Colwell, Worcs
Rose Dyer, boarder, 8, Staunton, Worcs
Date, place and cause of death:
DecQ 1890 Newent district
Date and place of burial:
St Thomas day [21 Dec] 1890 at Staunton, Eliza RUSSELL, aged 70
Have not yet found Eliza and William Williams on the 1861 census. Son William had left home by the 1871 census.
anne fraser
19-04-10, 16:50
Have you seen this from the forrest of Dean message board.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?mode=thread&id=13334#p13345
If you are not already a member I would recommend the site.
Thanks for that link Anne! I am a member of that site and have found it very useful.
I am not sure that trying to find her baptism is the best way to go at the moment, since I do not know where she came from! I really need to find her with William or her children - or preferably all of them together - on the 1861 or 1871 census to get a more accurate year and place of birth. I'll keep hunting!!
Was John Emms a labourer on the marriage cert?
What did William junior say about his father when he married? (dead or alive?)
When William Williams junior married in 1876 in Corse, Glos, the marriage certificate says his father was "late Williams Williams, Farm Labourer".
Interestingly, I noticed today that one of the witnesses of that marriage was a Thomas Hembs.
Don't know if you have this?
Marriages Dec 1878
BAILEY Henry Newent 6a 461 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Merrett Mary Ann Newent 6a 461
WAKEFIELD Henry Newent 6a 461
WILLIAMS Margaret Newent 6a 461 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
1881:
Henry BAILEY Head M 28 Groom & Gardener b Corse, Gloucester
Margarett BAILEY Wife M 23 Gloveress b Redmarley, Worcester
Joseph BAILEY Son 2 Corse, Gloucester
Ernest BAILEY Son 2 m Corse, Gloucester
Address, Stanbrook, Corse, Gloucestershire
I followed this family through 1891 and 1901 in case they had any of the prev generation living with them, but they didn't! Not too sure about 1911 as I don't have a sub, but I don't think there were any Williams in the house.
When William Williams junior married in 1876 in Corse, Glos, the marriage certificate says his father was "late Williams Williams, Farm Labourer".
Interestingly, I noticed today that one of the witnesses of that marriage was a Thomas Hembs.
I'm wondering about this death....
Deaths Mar 1864
WILLIAMS William Newent 6a 200
That marriage certainly looks like his sister, doesn't it? Why can't I find her on the 1861 census?
I think that death looks promising too. I don't really want to buy another death certificate at the moment - have bought too many certs just recently. Would it give an age?
That 1864 death is looking hopeful as then Eliza remarried:
Marriages Sep 1867
Russell Joseph Newent 6a 416
Williams Eliza Newent 6a 416
and on the 1871 census we have:
Worcestershire, Staunton:
Eliza Russell head wid (I think) 47 gloveress b Gloucestershire Upleadon (I think)
Thomas Russell son unm 25 farm (?) labourer, b same as mum
Margarett Russell dau unm 13 gloveress b Worcestershire Redmarley
William Bartless, visitor unm 35 farm labourer b Worcestershire Staunton
About three hours ago :rolleyes: I saw an Anne Hemms (or something similar) marrying in Newent District between 1841 and 1851 and found her in 1851 and she was born in Upleadon too.
Yes, the death cert would give an age and an informant.
Here's the death of Eliza's second husband:
Deaths Mar 1869
Russell Joseph 38 Newent 6a 184
1881 census Worcestershire Staunton
Eliza Russell wid 58 b Glou Upleadon
Thomer Williams son unm 37 b Worc Colwell ?? (OK so different place to 1871, but his name is Williams now!!!)
Rose Dyer boarder 8 b Worcestershire somewhere-or-other!
Oh Merry you are a genius! Well done.
So Margaret's surname is recorded under mother's new name, but Thomas must be her second husband's son.
Oooh, but Thomas Williams is older than the marriage to William Williams, isn't he?? ! lol
So, maybe he was really an Emms (*slight swearing* lol)
So Margaret's surname is recorded under mother's new name, but Thomas must be her second husband's son.
Good point, he cound be, but then why is he Williams in 1881?
So, you think he might be an illegitimate son then?
Interesting that they use the Williams surname, isn't it?
Going to Upleaden, this is the nearest I can find at the mo....a brother for Eliza?
WILLIAM HEMS Pedigree
Male
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 01 FEB 1818 Upleadon, Gloucester, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: JOHN HEMS Family
Mother: ELIZABETH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record.
So, you think he might be an illegitimate son then?
Interesting that they use the Williams surname, isn't it?
Maybe he was called Williams whilst Eliza was married to William and it stuck? (except for when he was called Russell!!)
Thing is, we never know if the enumerator got his wires crossed when taking the info. It must have been easy to make an assumption about a surname and get it wrong.
Any ideas on what his birthplace actually is?
I have no idea about where William or Eliza were born. They have just arrived on the scene, so to speak!!
I am assuming that the Thomas Hembs witness on son William's marriage is the same as the Thomas you found with Eliza on the census.
Just looked on the Forest of Dean site and there is another child of John and Elizabeth HEMS baptised 18 Oct 1812 at Rudford, a Mary. But cannot see an Eliza at the moment.
I have no idea about where William or Eliza were born. They have just arrived on the scene, so to speak!!
I am assuming that the Thomas Hembs witness on son William's marriage is the same as the Thomas you found with Eliza on the census.
Just looked on the Forest of Dean site and there is another child of John and Elizabeth HEMS baptised 18 Oct 1812 at Rudford, a Mary. But cannot see an Eliza at the moment.
Sorry, I meant Thomas - where is "Worc Colwell" which is what is seems to say in 1881 and I need to look again at the 1871 which was dreadful writing!
Yes, I'm sure you are right about Thomas Hembs on the marriage cert.
Deaths Dec 1890
Russell Eliza 69 Newent 6a 178
kiterunner
20-04-10, 22:12
It does say Worcestersh Colwell on the 1881 but should probably be Colwall.
And it does say Gloster Upleadon on the 1871.
Thanks Kate. I can only see Colwall in Herefordshire - would that be the same one? (10 miles from Upleadon)
kiterunner
20-04-10, 22:26
My map has got Colwall Green and Colwall Stone on it, as well as Colwall, and yes, they are just across the border from Worcestershire, in Herefordshire, but I wonder if the boundary has ever been changed?
Probably - I don't know this part of the country at all.
Anyway, a few inroads have been made. I'm off to bed now.....
Thank you Merry for all your investigations! Yes, the county boundaries in this part of the country have changed quite a few times. I am going to try and verify some of this information today.
anne fraser
21-04-10, 13:20
Wow Merry you are good. The area between Gloucestershire and Herefordshire is known as the Marchlands and was always changing hands.
In 1881 there is a John Hembs age 57 living in Westbury with wife Amelai and daughter Alice and he gives his occupation as farm labourer.
I'm wondering about this death....
Deaths Mar 1864
WILLIAMS William Newent 6a 200
Newent district covers both Redmarley and Staunton - so went looking for a burial and found one at Staunton:
8 Feb 1864 William Williams of Redmarley, aged 48 years [ie born 1816].
Have followed up these leads as best I could:
Don't know if you have this?
Marriages Dec 1878
BAILEY Henry Newent 6a 461 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Merrett Mary Ann Newent 6a 461
WAKEFIELD Henry Newent 6a 461
WILLIAMS Margaret Newent 6a 461 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Marriages Sep 1867
Russell Joseph Newent 6a 416
Williams Eliza Newent 6a 416
Had a look at several parishes for these marriages, but I suspect they took place at Staunton. Unfortunately the register is still at the church so I couldn't check any details. :(
I think the census confirms you have the right people though.
Here's the death of Eliza's second husband:
Deaths Mar 1869
Russell Joseph 38 Newent 6a 184
Buried at Staunton on 16 Feb 1869 Joseph Russell, of Staunton, aged 38 years.
Deaths Dec 1890
Russell Eliza 69 Newent 6a 178
Buried at Staunton on St Thomas day 1890 Eliza Russell, of Staunton, aged 70 years.
Armed with the census information giving year and place of birth I investigated the Upleadon parish register and found the following which might be of interest:
1812 18 Oct Mary Hems d/of John & Elizabeth at Rudford
1814 18 Sep Anne Hembs d/o John & Elizabeth, Compton Tything, Newent, Labourer, at Newent
1815 1 Oct Joseph Ems s/o John & Elizabeth, Little Carswally, Newent, Labourer, at Newent
1818 1 Feb William Hems s/o John & Elizabeth, Whites House on the Green, Labourer, at Upleadon
1820 30 Jul Anne Hemming d/o John & Elizabeth, Whites House on the Green, Labourer, Upleadon
1823 9 Jun Eliza Heming d/o John & Elizabeth, Whites House on the Green, Labourer, Upleadon <<<<
1825 10 Dec John Hemmings s/o John & Betty, Upleadon, Labourer, at Upleadon
1827 7 Sep Harriet Hemmings d/o John & Betty, Upleadon, Labourer, at Upleadon
1831 19 Jun Hannah Hemmings d/o John & Betty, Upleadon, Labourer, at Upleadon
1834 23 Mar Elizabeth Hemmings d/o John & Betty, Upleadon, Labourer at Upleadon
It just shows how many variations you can get out of one surname!!
After that it was quite easy to find her parents marriage:
4 Nov 1811 John HEMMS and Elizabeth PREEDY, both of the parish, married at Rudford with Highleadon, witnesses: Christopher Preedy and Sarah Baylis.
You have been busy!
One of those Anns married someone named Chapman in Newent district in the 1840s. It was through her I found the Emms (etc) may have been from Upleadon.
anne fraser
22-04-10, 06:58
It looks as though the 1841 census in the forrest of Dean link was the right one for the family. (second post).
You have been busy!
sssh Merry, I was supposed to be grouting tiles!!! :p
It looks as though the 1841 census in the forrest of Dean link was the right one for the family. (second post).
Yes Anne, that was well found! and I can prove the connection with my Eliza now. :)
Don't see an immediate connection, but my gt x 2 grandmother was Elizabeth Emms (also recorded as Emmes, Ems and Hems). She was born in Chedworth, Gloucestershire and her parents were William Emms and Jane Harding.
You never know Nell there might be a connection another generation or two further back! She didn't marry your William Williams too, did she? :d
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