Can anyone help find whose child is this?

[JBee]

and what happened to her?

In 1891

Margaret A Norman? age 6 born Lower Broughton, Lancs
with parents Frank and Annie Norman nee Bresland - married 1891
RG12; Piece: 3447; Folio 187; Page 79; GSU roll: 6098557.
Can't see a birth for her nor a death.

In 1901 no sign of her.

Frank Norman is living with Sarah Ashby under her surname
RG13; Piece: 3758; Folio: 10; Page: 12.

Anne Norman is living with James Andrews as his wife
RG13; Piece: 3861; Folio: 120; Page: 13.

It's a puzzle as I don't know who the parent(s) are - or whether an assumption was made that she was their child.

Has anyone any ideas of what the scenario was?

[Olde Crone]

Odd - looking on Lancsbmd, there are NO births of any Bresland, and only two marriages. I wonder if the name has been mistranscribed?

OC

[Merry]

Do you have the birth cert for James Andrews aged 5 weeks in 1901?

[JBee]

Yes - well I haven't got it but my sister has.

It gives Ann's name as Andrews formerly Norman but we haven't been able to find a marriage to James Andrews. I tried to find a christening but couldn't find one.

Ann's age and place of birth Ireland matches the Annie Bresland that married Frank Norman and if she was still married to Frank Norman then she wouldn't have been able to get married again. Neighbours were the witnesses.

Frank Norman is I'm pretty sure the same one as he went on to marry Sarah Ashby in 1906 and died in 1908 and his father is the same Elijah and age and place of birth the same.

[Merry]

So the birth cert suggests Ann's maiden name was Norman, when it was Bresland?

Have you got the Norman/Bresland marriage cert?

[JBee]

Yes that's why we've always looked for a Ann(ie) Norman marrying a James Andrew(s) without success. Given Annie's age 42 in 1901 we did consider a previous marriage. She died in 1915 - age on death certificate 65 but actually 56.

Have got both of Frank Norman's marriage certificates and he's a bachelor on both?!!!

Frank and Ann married at St Andrews Church of Ashton on Ribble, Lancs 31 May 1891.
Both living at 29 Swansea St, Ashton on Ribble.
Witnesses William and Eliza Jane Mercer (neighbours)

It says:
Anne Bresland father James Bresland - farmer.
Frank Norman father Elisha (not Elijah my mistake) - labourer.

[Merry]

I've just realised who these people are! Sorry, a bit slow.

Erm.....can I take a holiday?!

[JBee]

They've driven us to distraction too. Just needed to see if anyone else could fathom it out and whether I was on the right track.

That's why I thought about trying to find out who Margaret A ??? was and if there was a possible previous marriage before Frank even - or maybe its his daughter.

[kiterunner]

Odd - looking on Lancsbmd, there are NO births of any Bresland, and only two marriages. I wonder if the name has been mistranscribed?

OC

There seem to be quite a few Breslands in Ireland on FamilySearch.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, sorry, hadn't twigged she was Irish!

OC

[JBee]

According to the 1911 Census Annie Andrews reckoned she'd been born in Co Fermanagh and I couldn't see any Breslands/Normans in Fermanagh on the IGI.

However in the pilot site there was a William Norman born and died in 1866 at Clones Registration District (Fermanagh or Monaghan). That was the only one though.

Yes I think Bresland could very well be mistranscribed.

I just wish I could find the birth of this Margaret and it might solve a few questions.

[kiterunner]

Lancashire BMD has only indexed the Broughton births up to 1876 so far, so it's possible her birth will turn up when they get to 1884-5. (no mother's maiden names on the index for Broughton so far though)

[JBee]

I do hope so as nothing is jumping out of FreeBDM for Preston.

[Merry]

I do hope so as nothing is jumping out of FreeBDM for Preston.


Erm,isn't Lower Broughton in Salford District?

Quote from Genuki:

BROUGHTON, a township-chapelry and a subdistrict, in Salford district, Lancashire; on the river Irwell, near the Bolton railway, in the parish and within the borough of Manchester. It includes a suburb of Manchester, called Higher Broughton and Lower Broughton, communicating with Salford by Broughton bridge; includes also the village of Kersall......

It was Salford where nothing was jumping out for me!

[kiterunner]

Yes, it was Salford I was looking at on Lancashire BMD as well. Don't say there are two Lower Broughtons, please!

[Merry]

Yes, it was Salford I was looking at on Lancashire BMD as well. Don't say there are two Lower Broughtons, please!

Broughton is one of those horrible place names that is repeated all over the country! There are two in Lancashire (I think) - the Salford one and another called Broughton in Furness. I think Salford is the right place to be looking.

[maggie_4_7]

I've just looked the 1891 Census is everyone sure that name says Norman?

[JBee]

Sorry have been trying to get papers organised for going up to Durham, took longer than expected.

I was convinced Lower Broughton was near Preston as there's a Broughton in the Preston registration district (according to FreeBDM) where Frank and Annie were married.
If Salford is correct then Annie Andrews returned there in 1911.

Yes I think the name Norman is right - as Frank and Annie Norman were both living in Swansea St (same as census) on their marriage certificate.