View Full Version : Help needed with 1911 puzzle please
Lynn the Forest Fan
25-02-10, 20:37
I have just got the 1911 image for my gg uncle Douglas Stowell, (with a little help from a friend ;) ) & it has just totally confused me. In 1901, he is a bus driver & living with his mother in London. According to the 1911, he has been married 14 years & has a 13 year old son Douglas Betrie & 2 other children! He did marry the lady who is listed as his wife, but not until 1914. I can't find a birth for Douglas Bertie or find the the mother, Alberta v Turnedge (c1873 Chelmsford Essex) in 1901. Can anyone help me unravel this please? I do not currently have a sub to ancestry.
Thanks
Here's Alberta's birth:
Births Jun 1873
TURNEDGE Alberta Victoria Chelmsford 4a 211
Did you look for her with her prev married name in 1901/1891?
Marriages Sep 1889
Dutton John Dodson Bradford, Y. 9b 362
Quinn John Bradford, Y. 9b 362
REDDING Catherine Bradford, Y. 9b 362
Turnedge Alberta Victoria Bradford Y 9b 362
She married John D Dutton.
1891 John D Dutton and Alberta Dutton both b Chelmsford at Essex Road Islington, Middlesex. She is 17 and he is 26 and an accounts clerk. They have a son John aged 11mths b Chelmsford.
Lynn the Forest Fan
25-02-10, 20:54
Are you sure that is the same one, as she married under the name Turnedge, not Dutton? Or perhaps she was still married?
In 1901 she is listed as Victoria. Still with John Dutton, chartered accountant. Sons John E 11, Douglas B 3 and dau Dorothy E 3mths - the last two b in Stoke Newington.
Are you sure that is the same one
Yes, a fabulous name! There's only the one and she has exactly the right age and place of birth.
If she didn't get a divorce (which she may have done) it would have been a bigamous marriage in 1914 as John Dutton didn't die until 1921:
Deaths Mar 1921
Dutton John D 56 Hackney 1b 421
You could look to see what he was doing in 1911!
Lynn the Forest Fan
25-02-10, 21:00
How bizarre! Why would Douglas claim that they had 3 children & list Douglas B as his son on the census?
Just seen your last comment, that is even worse!!!, I don't actually have credit for the 1911 either at the moment sadly.
Joan of Archives
25-02-10, 21:01
Oh well done Merry what would we do without you! :d
I wondered if they were the children from her first marriage, maybe she had to wait to get a divorce from Mr Dutton, or wait until he died? ;(
I found her mother in 1901 transcribed as Purnedge Gall aged 48 a cook :d
Lynn the Forest Fan
25-02-10, 21:04
Did you see Merry's last comment though Joan, it looks like you found me a bigamist! :eek:
How bizarre! Why would Douglas claim that they had 3 children & list Douglas B as his son on the census?
Why anything!! He wasn't going to say he wasn't married, was he! The children in the house were being called by his surname so it would be easier to suggest they were his and to say they had been married for longer than the age of the eldest. What they said is exactly what I would expect them to say given the circumstances. Otherwise 'people' (the enumerator?) might ask difficult or embarrassing question!
Did you see Merry's last comment though Joan, it looks like you found me a bigamist! :eek:
I'm looking for a divorce......
John D Dutton doesn't seem to have remarried.
Joan of Archives
25-02-10, 21:06
John Dodson Dutton is living alone but says he's married in 1911 !! Lol! :d
Just to add he has a 44 year old housekeeper called Amy Dunscombe living with him so maybe our sympathy should lie with Alberta lol!
Well, I can't see any divorce papers listed in TNA catalogue, so it could be a bigamous marriage.
Lynn the Forest Fan
25-02-10, 21:11
The thing is Merry, only 1 child is actually living with Douglas & Alberta in 1911, so why mention 2 others? I can understand him lying about the length of his marriage though. Also if there were 2 more children, then where are they? They clearly aren't with her mum & they aren't with his either. It is all very odd, not like my family at all, I think I need a sit down! :d
Lynn the Forest Fan
25-02-10, 21:12
Well, I can't see any divorce papers listed in TNA catalogue, so it could be a bigamous marriage.
*faints with shame*
John Dodson Dutton is living alone but says he's married in 1911 !! Lol! :d
Just to add he has a 44 year old housekeeper called Amy Dunscombe living with him so maybe our sympathy should lie with Alberta lol!
Well, he was married in 1911, to Alberta!
I don't see why our sympathies should lie with Alberta (that's Douglas's job!!) She's the one who is telling porkies! (or her 'OH' is)
What is REALLY bothering me is that she was living with her husband in 1901 and had already produced a son called Douglas. Then she lives with someone called Douglas. Not exactly a common first name at the time - so, who was Douglas junior's father???????????????????????????????????
Do they say all three children are alive in 1911?
Dorothy Ethel Dutton died in 1902.
Joan of Archives
25-02-10, 21:31
Yes they do Merry even more fibs! :rolleyes:
I can't find John E Dutton on the 1911 either so I suspect he must have died too.
Joan of Archives
25-02-10, 21:32
Maybe they weren't telling fibs as such but the form frightened them & they got a little confused as to who they were married to & what happened to the children? Had Alberta been married to John Dutton for 14 years by then? Could be she filled the form in & was a little embarrassed :rolleyes:
Alberta had been married to John D Dutton for about 22 years. I can't find a birth reg for her first son to see what his middle name was, in order to sort out if he was alive or not.
Does anyone know if they said any of the children had died in 1911?
Margaret in Burton
25-02-10, 21:38
I've known a widow to fill in how many years she has been married and include all the years her husband has been dead for.
Ah, in 1891 John Dutton jr was b Chelmsford (no reg) but in 1901 they had remembered he was actually b in Islington! lol
Think this may be him:
Births Jun 1890
Dutton John Clyde Islington 1b 353
So, John C not John E!
So.....was Douglas really the son of Douglas? Probably no one will ever know as I bet her husband is on the birth cert......
Joan of Archives
25-02-10, 21:49
So.....was Douglas really the son of Douglas? Probably no one will ever know as I bet her husband is on the birth cert......
LOL!! :d
I think Lynns gone for a very long lie down :rolleyes::d
I see Douglas jr died with the name Stowell.
Name: Douglas Bertie Stowell
Birth Date: 2 Oct 1897
Death Registration Month/Year: 1978 Q3
Registration district: Stoke On Trent
Inferred County: Staffordshire
Volume: 30
Page: 1263
The older son, John Clyde, was a Dutton for WW1 (there's a pension record for him.....I'm reading it to check he is the right person - ie that I got the right birth reg)
Hmmmm, well I couldn't see any next of kin details on the pension record. I can't see why he would have been entitled to a pension as he seems to have been dismissed from the army for the theft of two postal orders, value £1 each before WW1 even started (May 1914). A bit odd.
The only useful bit of info was his calling before he joined up, which was a sailor, which may explain why I couldn't find him in 1911!
LOL!! :d
I think Lynns gone for a very long lie down :rolleyes::d
lol!!
Olde Crone
25-02-10, 22:21
Oh, my goodness, whatever next.
I can't work out which is worst - bigamy, pre marital incontinence or the theft of Her Majesty's Postal Orders.
*Removes Lynn's name from one's social diary*
OC
Joan of Archives
25-02-10, 22:25
Oh, my goodness, whatever next.
I can't work out which is worst - bigamy, pre marital incontinence or the theft of Her Majesty's Postal Orders.
*Removes Lynn's name from one's social diary*
OC
Lmho OC !!! :d:d:d
Shhhh Lynn is still in shock :rolleyes::d
Just to save Lynn's piece of mind - could the marriage have been annulled?
And what's wrong with bigamy?
At least they got married. My 2g grandma forgot that part when she had my great grandfather.
Lynn the Forest Fan
26-02-10, 06:13
I had gone to bed to recover from the embarrassment!
*sobs at being taken out of OC's social diary*
The 1911 lists 3 children all still alive!
I had noticed that there was a death for Douglas Bertie Stowell & it isn't particulalry a common combination of names, so it must be him!
It would appear that they married just before Douglas went to war, as he enlisted in October 1914
Just to save Lynn's piece of mind - could the marriage have been annulled?
Well anything is possible, but if the first marriage was annulled then why would Douglas and Alberta wait ages to be married? (and what would be the grounds? John Dutton doesn't seem to have been previously married and as their first child came along fairly quickly I doubt it could have been non-consumation!)
I expect they got so stressed with filling in the census form they just got in a muddle over the numbers for the children. It seems to me likely that Alberta had three children, one of them dec'd and Douglas didn't have any unless Douglas junr was his (which I feel he may have been).
Lynn, please don't worry about OC's social diary - I'm sure the rest of us will still invite you to our parties!!
Lynn, please don't worry about OC's social diary - I'm sure the rest of us will still invite you to our parties!!
All the best families contain a bigamist *dares anyone to say otherwise* :D Mine is my 2xgrt grandmother :eek: Perhaps we could start a club? :)
Lynn the Forest Fan
26-02-10, 08:58
I think you are right Merry, it certainly seems likely that Douglas jr was the result of an extra marital relationship & perhaps the daughter as well.
*Looks forward to being invited round to parties at merry & Georgette's houses*
Poor Alberta was only just 16 when she married the first time.
I think the idea of 'a bigamist in the family' club is a great one!
Olde Crone
26-02-10, 09:56
The 1914 spur to marriage would of course have been the thought of a wife's allowance from the army.
Not the first time this has encouraged bigamy, as we have seen before on these boards.
OC
Good point OC.
I am also finding it interesting that when Alberta, aged just 16, married John Dutton, they did so in Bradford, when they were both from Essex. They then turned up a year or so later in Islington. I wonder what age she said she was on the marriage cert? :rolleyes:
Lynn the Forest Fan
26-02-10, 13:33
Thats what I had thought OC, marry before going to war, just in case.
It is interesting that her mother must have approved of the bigamist relationship, as she is living with them in 1911
Lynn the Forest Fan
26-02-10, 18:48
I broke the news to my Mum & she was fine about it. It occurred to me that my grandad is actually named after his uncle, although Mum hadn't been aware of this existence before I started on the family tree. I am now tempted to get the marriage cert to see what that says.
Is it possible to find out if they were ever caught & punished? I know he died in 1941, but am not sure when she died.
I'd say its extremely unlikely they were caught and punished. That would be more likely if it was the husband committing the bigamy and his first wife objected to being abandoned without any income etc.
Her's Alberta's death:
Name: Alberta V Stowell
Death Registration Month/Year: 1948 Q4
Age at death (estimated): 75
Registration district: Fulham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5c
Page: 518
In theory, if the 1914 marriage had been annulled and you apply for the marriage cert, the registrar should refuse to send it to you, but it seems this supression rarely actually happens (I've not seen a case yet! lol)
Lynn the Forest Fan
26-02-10, 18:59
Thanks for that Merry. I can imagine that once her 1st husband was dead, they probably thought everything would be ok anyway.
That makes me even more inclined to order the cert!
Olde Crone
26-02-10, 19:14
I alao think it unlikely they were caught, because if they had been, their bigamous marriage cert should have been suppressed as well!
I don't think the authorities ever actively pursued bigamists, they only reacted as Merry says, when an aggrieved spouse reported the matter to the police.
OC
Lynn the Forest Fan
26-02-10, 19:24
You can only imagine that her spouse wasn't that bothered then.
Her husband might have thought he was well rid of her if the alternative was supporting children that were not his. (sounds harsh, but highly possible)
Lynn the Forest Fan
26-02-10, 19:58
Good point & he might have been looking elsewhere as well
(and what would be the grounds?)
No idea. Just threw the idea out there in case.
Poor Alberta was only just 16 when she married the first time.
I think the idea of 'a bigamist in the family' club is a great one!
* Sulks * Not sure if I have a bigamist, although one rellie is living with his "wife" while his first wife is still alive and living with her eldest.
It is interesting that her mother must have approved of the bigamist relationship, as she is living with them in 1911
Maybe Mr Dutton wasn't a nice person, or Mum had no where else to go.
Lynn the Forest Fan
27-02-10, 11:36
Sadly we can only speculate. I think I will order the cert, just to see what it says.
Mary from Italy
28-02-10, 14:08
All the best families contain a bigamist *dares anyone to say otherwise* :D Mine is my 2xgrt grandmother :eek: Perhaps we could start a club? :)
Signs up.
5 times...
Signs up.
5 times...
One person a multiple bigamist, or five bigamists?! (or somewhere between)
Mary from Italy
28-02-10, 16:41
A husband and wife who both remarried twice while the other one was alive, and one single bigamist.
Signs up.
5 times...
I think you'd better be our club president, Mary :)
samesizedfeet
28-02-10, 22:06
I don't have any bigamists
*sulky face*
Olde Crone
28-02-10, 22:11
Well, let's hear it for MY ancestors who deplored bigamy!
They hated it so much and were so terrified they would inadvertently commit it that they didn't get married at all.
*Puts self forward as President of the Anti-Bigamy Society*
OC
* grabs Zoe and joins OC's club *
My ggrandma seems to have done it three times. Does that make her a trigamist?
*fills out application form for the club*
Lynn the Forest Fan
01-03-10, 06:25
I think we will have quite a large membership in our club.
Lynn the Forest Fan
01-03-10, 13:52
I have ordered the cert today, due for despatch 5/3
Lynn the Forest Fan
08-03-10, 09:18
Well the cert arrived today. Douglas is listed as a batchelor, motor bus driver (which he had been in 1901) but he has given his brother's name for his father & said he was deceased! His father was deceased but his brother certainly wasn't! Alberta is listed as spinster & the witnesses were Rose Forsyth & Louisa Theobald.
The marriage took place at Fulham register office.
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