martin walsh

[bidston]

hi all, just got the birth details of my grandmother sarah ann welsh or walsh,1878, unfortunately mothers maiden name is also mary welsh, martin born liverpool mary born kilkenney, ireland,

looking for a marriage around 1860, first child catherine was born in hanley, staffs, next 2 birkenhead, next 5 all whitchurch, salop, so could be any of these places as well as liverpool

in 1881 ages down as martin 42 and mary 43, but all over the place in later census, any help would be appreciated

[Margaret in Burton]

Hi

can you be a little clearer what it is you are looking for? Is it them on all of the census?

Where are they in 1881? More info please.

[Margaret in Burton]

I can't see a marriage that would tie in with those ages you give, too early. Looking at them on later census may help.

[bidston]

hi marg, got them in liverpool 1881 age 42 and 43, also liverpool 1891 49 and 47, then 1901 liverpool both age 54, all over the place , first child born about 1862 in hanley, so marriage just before or after

[ElizabethHerts]

Bidston, whose marriage are you looking for? Your query doesn't make it very clear!

[bidston]

sorry all, looking for martin welsh or walsh to mary welsh - maiden name welsh around 1860 maybe liverpool where martin is from or hanley, staffs where first child catherine was born

[Merry]

hi marg, got them in liverpool 1881 age 42 and 43, also liverpool 1891 49 and 47, then 1901 liverpool both age 54, all over the place , first child born about 1862 in hanley, so marriage just before or after

Don't make the assumption the marriage will be before the first child. All you know is that they were apparently married by 1878. Until you have them on earlier censuses/the marriage, you don't know if the mum was the same woman for all the children.

[Margaret in Burton]

Bidston

Can you post the census refs you have for each one?

[Olde Crone]

Martin WALCH married

Mary WALCH

in 1861 at West Derby Register Office or registrar attended.

(From Lancsbmd)

OC

[Merry]

Right, getting somewhere now (can't see that marriage yet, but can maybe circumvent it! lol)

In 1871 the eldest dau Catherine Walsh/Welsh is living with her aunt, widow Emma Needham.

In 1861 Emma Needham is living with her father (and possibly mother), so in theory the head should be the father of either Martin or his wife (assuming they really did have the same surname) The 1861 family is as follows:

John Welsh head m 73 licenced victualler b Coventry Warks
Mary Welsh wife m 72 b Coventry
Henry Welsh g-son 13 scholar b Coventry
Edward Brown g-son 17 scholar b Coventry
Walter Pemberton (can't read relationship) 9 b Coventry
Emma Needham dau wid 41 dressmaker b Coventry
Humphrey Needham servant (crossed through!) b Coventry
Martha Brady serv unm 25 b Coventry

at 23 Albion St Coventry.

Now to try and go back......

[Merry]

Hmmmm.....I think we are having parallel families as I see there are two Catherine Welshes b in Stoke on Trent district within a year of either other and having gone back through the 1851 and 1841, this must be the other one, so forget that last post. Just a red herring!! lol

[Merry]

Martin WALCH married

Mary WALCH

in 1861 at West Derby Register Office or registrar attended.

(From Lancsbmd)

OC

Ooops, missed this post OC!

[Merry]

Marriage is June Q so probably after the census

Marriages Jun 1861
Parrington James W. Derby 8b 754
ROONEY Ellen W. Derby 8b 754
Walch Martin W. Derby 8b 754
Walch Mary W. Derby 8b 754

[bidston]

thanks for that merry and guys, will get marriage certificate for the 1861 marriage, went down this road a few weeks ago when i had martin walsh and mary tierney on the same page, someone warned me they might not be married to each other but i ordered the certificate anyway and they were right, will put a reference on the gro order re bootmaker or shoemaker, he is always down as either, that should help to confirm

[Merry]

thanks for that merry and guys, will get marriage certificate for the 1861 marriage, went down this road a few weeks ago when i had martin walsh and mary tierney on the same page, someone warned me they might not be married to each other but i ordered the certificate anyway and they were right, will put a reference on the gro order re bootmaker or shoemaker, he is always down as either, that should help to confirm

You didn't need to worry about who married who on the GRO index in this case as OC has already said she had seen they married each other at the West Derby Register Office from the entry on LancsBMD. Try looking it up here and you will see what I mean:

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

Also, by restricting the occupation on your GRO order you may now not receive the cert at all, as if you say Martin was a shoemaker but the cert says he was a bootmaker or shoecloser or cordwainer or anything else, they may not send the cert as they are only obliged to issue a copy if the details you give are an exact match with the cert. So, I hope it does say shoemaker on the cert!

[bidston]

o.k. point taken, will just order it, thanks merry, still cant find either martin or mary in a census before 1881

[Merry]

still cant find either martin or mary in a census before 1881

Me neither! lol

[bidston]

in looking for martin there is not much in 1861 but lots of mary welsh/walsh etc, how can i thin it down, in 1881 she is down as born kilkenney, ireland, married 1861, first child born 1862, last child born 1880, in liverpool 1861, any tips

[Merry]

If you get the 1861 marriage cert the address(es) and fathers details on it may help.

[bidston]

thanks merry, will post that when it arrives

[bidston]

hi all, got the certificate for the marriage of martin walch, age 21, bootmaker, liverpool to mary walch, age 18, born kilkenny, certificate is a very faded copy and hard to read so some details a bit dodgy, father of martin is john walch, deceased, bootmaker, father of mary is william walch, deceased, tailor

date of marriage 11th or 18th june 1861, st james rc church , everton, can't read the address for martin but is liverpool, mary's is maybe kirkstaff road, everton, cant read witnesses

can anyone find them in the census which was prior to the june wedding, many thanks as ever

[Margaret in Burton]

Might be better if the two threads were merged. A bit confusing having to go over old ground otherwise.

Can a member of admin do it please?

The other one is:

http://genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3411

[Margaret in Burton]

Here is Mary in 1861.



http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=LANRG9_2710_2712-0064&fn=Mary&ln=Walsh&st=r&ssrc=&pid=23144369

The transcript says matron but it's actually relation. The household of James Purcell.

There is another Mary Walsh just a bit further down.

[kiterunner]

I've merged the two threads.

How do you know that's the right Mary in 1861, Marg? I thought I looked at that one but the address wasn't the same?

[Margaret in Burton]

Unsure if this is Martin as he is a cooper. The only other of the same name in Liverpool is a dock labourer and aged 27 although the transcript says age 21.

He is boarding with a Bridget Corcorran.

Didn't we have a similar name in an earlier thread?

I wonder if Martin and Mary are still in Ireland on earlier census. Not checked, just a thought.


http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=LANRG9_2653_2654-0590&fn=Martin&ln=Walsh&st=d&ssrc=&pid=22937123

[Margaret in Burton]

I don't for sure Kate, but it's the only Mary Walch, Walsh, Welch in the Everton area of the right age.

[bidston]

hi marg, thanks for the merger, wasn't sure how to post it

martin was born in liverpool, the mary walsh looks good though, thanks

[Margaret in Burton]

I've found a Martin with father John in 1851 but he's a dock labourer not a boot maker.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=LANHO107_2178_2179-0081&fn=Martin&ln=Walsh&st=d&ssrc=&pid=11531832

[bidston]

blimey, don't start that corcoran lot off again, that's another lot, still got the headache from that one

[bidston]

the martin with father john is born ireland not liverpool

[bidston]

general query, just spent ages looking at john walsh's in 1861, loads of them, mostly born ireland but some liverpool, tried the same in 1841 and not one, has liverpool not been added to the 1841 records yet

[bidston]

found a mary walch in 1851 age 10 born about 1841 in ireland living with mother bridget and other children as a visitor at the home of john hoban, dates a bit out

[Margaret in Burton]

general query, just spent ages looking at john walsh's in 1861, loads of them, mostly born ireland but some liverpool, tried the same in 1841 and not one, has liverpool not been added to the 1841 records yet

1841 census only gives if they were born in the county or not. Doesn't state which county if not.

Also will says if born in Ireland, Scotland or Foreign Parts.

Ages for adults are usually rounded up to the nearest 5 years on the 1841 as well.

Try putting Liverpool in the keyword at the bottom of the search box instead.

[bidston]

also found 2 mary walsh born kilkenny with father william, one born 12 mar 1843 the other 10 dec 1843, both in same place, different mothers, hard luck that

[Margaret in Burton]

also found 2 mary walsh born kilkenny with father william, one born 12 mar 1843 the other 10 dec 1843, both in same place, different mothers, hard luck that

Where did you find that?

[bidston]

family search

[kiterunner]

can't read the address for martin but is liverpool, mary's is maybe kirkstaff road, everton, cant read witnesses


I can't find a Kirkstaff Road in my A-Z of Liverpool nor on the internet. If you contact the register office and tell them you can't read the addresses and the witnesses' names then hopefully they will be able to tell you what it says.

[bidston]

thanks kiterunner, didn't know that, thanks marg , followed your suggestion and they all reappeared. ta

[bidston]

hi kiterunner, just rang them and the nice lady told me to type into google CERTIFICATE SERVICES COMPLAINTS and an online form pops up, she said fill it in and report UNCLEAR, they will type it or reissue, excellent

[bidston]

hi all, just received an envelope for the return of the marriage certificate, hopefully will get a better copy